With 6-packs out, I've been hearing word that people are cutting the fan and katana from their decks to make space. They aren't bad cards can get certainly give that needed boost when dishonored or when another guy drops in. Have people found people in this situation yet or are these cards still vital? Potentially, even banzai?

Currently playing around with a Crab deck that cuts Fine Katana for Seal of the Crab. That build uses Crisis Breaker, so adding the Berserker trait is a part of the strategy. Not sure about other decks.

Fans are currently more playable than Katana due to the proliferation of Policy Debate. I can't imagine cutting Banzai, but Katana has started to appear less and less.

13 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

Currently playing around with a Crab deck that cuts Fine Katana for Seal of the Crab. That build uses Crisis Breaker, so adding the Berserker trait is a part of the strategy. Not sure about other decks.

Well, you’re called swordbreaker , of course you’re taking out those katanas.

18 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Well, you’re called swordbreaker , of course you’re taking out those katanas.

Well.

True.

I've experimented cutting Fans, Katanas and even Banzai. What I found with the decks is that they were more interesting, but just worse frankly. I was winning in spite of the deck, not because of it. It's really easy to underestimate how many cheap province kills you get as a result of those cards.

Banzai is still an auto-include. 4 stats for 1 card is great and 1 honor is rarely a significant cost. You need cards this efficient.

Swords and Fans are 0 cost for 2 stat which is still great but they compete with 1 cost 2 stats and an ability, or 0 cost 1 stat and an ability. Going over a certain amount of stat isn't as important so a character with 3 mil you may only need 1 more. If I go in with intention of negating the defense such as rout, outwit, admit defeat, covert, ect then I may only need the 1 stat to break the province in which case it might as well come with the extra ability.

It depends a lot on your deck though. You can't just take these guys out without a reason, they are still highly efficient stat cards.

I only play curved swords and fans. I cut all the straight ones though.

Yeah, think that they're both eminently cuttable but fans are more valuable. And as more and more stuff comes out that does stuff, I think people are going to move into deckspace where you don't really bother with attachments at all, or are at the very least completely unexcite by playing a card taking an action to gjve +2

With the expansion of the card pool, it is getting to the point where you can make multiple decks (with different clans) and have the decks still be good. I really don't have to worry about having only 6 Fine Katana for 4 decks.

With my Lion deck I'm torn. I already have a lot of power boost: Stronghold, Legion of One, Banzai, Test of Courage, Guard Duty, Honored Blade, etc.

That said, a 0-fate boost is nice. Especially when I want the fate for other things.

It just depends on the build, I suppose. I can see Dragon wanting more attachments at a good cost. With Lion I want to play around with Eiji, Guard Duty, and Stand Your Ground. (Maybe some Good Omens). Heck, even if I lose my LPB will avenge me!

I've pretty much cut them from my decks to focus on what I want the decks to do. If I were running decks that focused on attachments, I might still use them, but they are costing me a card slot and a potential draw into something that furthers my deck's objective.

I've been putting fans and swords back into my decks as the cost of my conflict decks has gotten too high.

Cut them, only for other attechement. With pack 6 im running spyglass and talisman as Pheonix, had to cut katana.

13 hours ago, SideshowLucifer said:

I've pretty much cut them from my decks to focus on what I want the decks to do. If I were running decks that focused on attachments, I might still use them, but they are costing me a card slot and a potential draw into something that furthers my deck's objective.

This is what I have done as well. Six card slots are precious and having katanas and fans goes against my decks objective so I removed them fully.

15 hours ago, cforfar said:

This is what I have done as well. Six card slots are precious and having katanas and fans goes against my decks objective so I removed them fully.

Would you (or sideshowlucifer) mind expanding on this? Do you just mean in honor run or dishonor decks?

In many decks they're still very usefull. +2 skill is not that attractive but 0 cost is great with the attachment hate..

I took off one katana and added A Legion of One in Lion, sometimes it is better, sometimes not, for example the katana is far more efficient to attack (2 fates chars like brawler, synergizes with FGG), and Legion is greater while forced to attack or defend alone..

A char with 2 fates and a fan/katana can be a good investment, specially if you are able to use it 2 times in a turn..

In unicorn giver of gifts makes fans/katanas far more valuable, as the foe will want to save let go/calling favors for better attachments like spyglass.

I often cut both of them and Banzai's from the deck to experiment with other card and deck concepts and interactions. See what works and what doesn't.

Then as I play I see what I can cut in favor of the obvious high efficiency cards like FINE KATANA, BANZAI, ORNATE FAN, COURT GAMES, without losing the overall concept of the deck.

No one can deny the efficiency of these cards but that does not always make them the best choice.

0 cost conflict cards are essential in any deck. Fans and Katanas would only compete in deckspace for me against other 0 cost cards. Cards with different costs will compete against themseves and so far if I need a power boos for 0 cost, I don't have so many options, especially in political confilcts

I've just cut katanas for oni masks, but I've yet to see if it is a fair trade

I have found that if you can gain tempo and board advantage off of 2 base fate characters with 1 fate added on top you can generally win, you essentially get the value of 4 fate of character for only 3, while still being able to contest 2 conflicts early game.

In that scenario katana and fan are extreme value because they carry their stats over 2 turns, giving you +4 for 1 card and 0 fate, and let you swing a fight early game when your being aggressive with your opening fate and can't afford bigger drops. You can claim the imperial favor with this technique and force your opponent to constantly bring in characters as fast as they can, often for only one turn, while you keep throwing 2 turn characters into the mix that make it easier for you to commit resources efficiently and capitalize on the favor just by having more people using rings to pile on harder and harder every turn. These cards as a bonus can make characters who are not a threat in a certain conflict type suddenly at least able to threaten a victory and force a defender out which puts even more pressure on an opponent when you outnumber them.

However if your not playing this tempo 3 drop strategy I find the math more questionable. Most clans have better free +2s if your not going to put 1 fate on the character, and while the stat advantage compounds over turns it isn't really value unless your forcing the opponent to contest provinces and fail, if you aren't putting pressure on them that forces to hold back a bit and make each conflict card count your not going to be able to capitalize on the +2 stats per turn, which make event boosts, which often come with secondary benefits like gaining personal honor, buffing everyone in a fight, ect more worth it.

Basically I would say even as more cards come out it will be likely Sword and Fan will remain staple cards for this tempo value strategy of 2 drops 2 turns, but if your not expecting to seize this ongoing tempo based value I think most clans have a better 0 cost buff available.

On 12/15/2017 at 9:37 AM, Hordeoverseer said:

With 6-packs out, I've been hearing word that people are cutting the fan and katana from their decks to make space. They aren't bad cards can get certainly give that needed boost when dishonored or when another guy drops in. Have people found people in this situation yet or are these cards still vital? Potentially, even banzai?

I'm glad that banzai still has a place in L5R. #BanzaisNotDead

7 hours ago, dezzmont said:

I have found that if you can gain tempo and board advantage off of 2 base fate characters with 1 fate added on top you can generally win, you essentially get the value of 4 fate of character for only 3, while still being able to contest 2 conflicts early game.

In that scenario katana and fan are extreme value because they carry their stats over 2 turns, giving you +4 for 1 card and 0 fate, and let you swing a fight early game when your being aggressive with your opening fate and can't afford bigger drops. You can claim the imperial favor with this technique and force your opponent to constantly bring in characters as fast as they can, often for only one turn, while you keep throwing 2 turn characters into the mix that make it easier for you to commit resources efficiently and capitalize on the favor just by having more people using rings to pile on harder and harder every turn. These cards as a bonus can make characters who are not a threat in a certain conflict type suddenly at least able to threaten a victory and force a defender out which puts even more pressure on an opponent when you outnumber them.

However if your not playing this tempo 3 drop strategy I find the math more questionable. Most clans have better free +2s if your not going to put 1 fate on the character, and while the stat advantage compounds over turns it isn't really value unless your forcing the opponent to contest provinces and fail, if you aren't putting pressure on them that forces to hold back a bit and make each conflict card count your not going to be able to capitalize on the +2 stats per turn, which make event boosts, which often come with secondary benefits like gaining personal honor, buffing everyone in a fight, ect more worth it.

Basically I would say even as more cards come out it will be likely Sword and Fan will remain staple cards for this tempo value strategy of 2 drops 2 turns, but if your not expecting to seize this ongoing tempo based value I think most clans have a better 0 cost buff available.

The downside to this is the cards become tempting Assassination targets (can still be good as you draw it out of their hand and hurt their Honor) but losing the character at the wrong time can really mess with your tempo.

6 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

The downside to this is the cards become tempting Assassination targets (can still be good as you draw it out of their hand and hurt their Honor) but losing the character at the wrong time can really mess with your tempo.

Yes, but assassination is so good because 2-1 fortune characters for 2 turns is such an outrageous line of play if your opponent doesn't have the response turn 1. Turn 2 you could very well end up so up on characters you just don't care.

Assassination's ubiquity seems to be more an indication that the 2-2-2 (2 characters, 2 fortune cost, 2 turns of life) opener is extraordinarily powerful, rather than something holding it back, as assassination's main utility is to disrupt this strategy. I mean if you think about it, if this tactic of playing out 2-2-2 with buffs wasn't so good, assassination would be amazingly bad, basically a -1 to -3 to conflict strength for 3 honor with limitations, which every clan can easily out value, so if you weren't expecting to see a LOT of 2 cost cards that are buffed, going to stick about for a while, or both, you in theory should never ever run assassination over just buffing your own characters or nerfing your opponent's, or just bowing them. Ring control over the game is just so critical that the only tactics that seem viable are things like Unicorn and Phoenix re-ready tactics (which combined with spyglass explains why unicorn alliances are so common) and just having the value train ride out by always having 2 turns worth of recruitment out at any time and extending the value of buffs.