Ok. So, this list worked great of course against a 6 ship s6AA screen, but that's the edsel-blerg triangle thing at work again. Do these lists really have any chance against mass bomber lists? I know the strat is bum rush the carriers. But the counter to that is placing squadrons so that they trade out your ISDs and to use the flotillas as speed bumps so you can't get into a good range of the carriers.

Courtesy of Advanced Rieekan tactics.

48 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Do these lists really have any chance against mass bomber lists?

The answer is - it depends. The configuration of both lists would matter a lot (there is 4 activation 2ISD list that has a good Defender screen, there is potential to have Slicer Gozantis, bombers can be rogue vs regular variety etc), as well as players skill. Keep in mind that "kill the squadrons" as opposed to "kill the carriers" is also a viable strategy sometimes.

On 12/15/2017 at 11:37 AM, Noosh said:

Hey @GiledPallaeon what are your thoughts on the liberty? I know we have touched on the differences in the past. I get a little annoyed at the ISD = liberty and they most certainly are not. Aside from asthetics and the whole punchy front arc they are completely different animals.

So I think I went over the maneuver differences in the comparison of JJ Borrows the Dreadnoughts vs Repulse and Renown, but I can add some more thoughts here. A Liberty with Madine and a Nav command is approximately the maneuver equal of a JJ ISD, but with more flexibility about where all those clicks are going. Add in Engine Techs and you have a much wider spread of possible speeds to threaten your opponent with, and therefore a much broader selection of landing choices. This is critical, because if I have to sum up the difference between an ISD and a Liberty succinctly, the latter is a claymore or a longsword (a real 6 foot long one, not a hand-and-a-half wannabe) whereas the Liberty is a rapier. Both are extremely deadly, but one is much better at bludgeoning and the other slices between the ribs. The other major difference is that a Liberty can often and will occasionally be forced to overshoot a target to avoid danger, while an ISD will plow through the debris of its destroyed enemies to get where it's going. Put another way, an ISD uses its agility to kill you; a Liberty uses it in order to avoid being killed. If you understand that their attributes are used in the inverse, then you'll be fine.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Ok. So, this list worked great of course against a 6 ship s6AA screen, but that's the edsel-blerg triangle thing at work again. Do these lists really have any chance against mass bomber lists? I know the strat is bum rush the carriers. But the counter to that is placing squadrons so that they trade out your ISDs and to use the flotillas as speed bumps so you can't get into a good range of the carriers.

Courtesy of Advanced Rieekan tactics.

So, the easy (and correct) answer is that it is incumbent on the ISD player to outdeploy (as in outthink during deployment, since outdrop is out of the question) and outfly the Rieekan player, and past that it's a matter of luck. If the ISDs can manage to hit the critical combatants (Yavaris and Gallant Haven) together, at high speed, blow them up, and blow through the squadrons, they'll be ok, and in theory an ISD has the hull and agility to do this most of the time. In practice, I never see Rieekan players actually doing this because they'd rather not give up anything at all, and in any case a BE build can often set up a fork, wherein if the flotilla is out of the squadrons' way, the ISDs are in no danger attacking it, and if it's closer in, the side arc is lined up on the flotilla and the front is on a real target.

Speaking more generally, it's actually decently strong against bomber lists. Against anything that isn't a GH bubble, it can often throw out ASq fire heavily enough to force many bombers to disengage, especially if they are kitted to do exactly that, and many bomber lists are predicated on the idea that you have to push through the bombers to reach the carriers. If (and this is a big If) the ISDs can blitz through the bombers, which is easier than it sounds with newer players and often even easier with lots of speed changes to throw off the other player's predictions, the carriers will often crumble under the weight of fire more than fast enough to justify losing an ISD on the way in. It's 100% a player skill matchup, but with a skilled enough hand behind the ISDs, it's also far from guaranteed one way or another.

3 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

So, the easy (and correct) answer is that it is incumbent on the ISD player to outdeploy (as in outthink during deployment, since outdrop is out of the question) and outfly the Rieekan player, and past that it's a matter of luck. If the ISDs can manage to hit the critical combatants (Yavaris and Gallant Haven) together, at high speed, blow them up, and blow through the squadrons, they'll be ok, and in theory an ISD has the hull and agility to do this most of the time. In practice, I never see Rieekan players actually doing this because they'd rather not give up anything at all, and in any case a BE build can often set up a fork, wherein if the flotilla is out of the squadrons' way, the ISDs are in no danger attacking it, and if it's closer in, the side arc is lined up on the flotilla and the front is on a real target.

Speaking more generally, it's actually decently strong against bomber lists. Against anything that isn't a GH bubble, it can often throw out ASq fire heavily enough to force many bombers to disengage, especially if they are kitted to do exactly that, and many bomber lists are predicated on the idea that you have to push through the bombers to reach the carriers. If (and this is a big If) the ISDs can blitz through the bombers, which is easier than it sounds with newer players and often even easier with lots of speed changes to throw off the other player's predictions, the carriers will often crumble under the weight of fire more than fast enough to justify losing an ISD on the way in. It's 100% a player skill matchup, but with a skilled enough hand behind the ISDs, it's also far from guaranteed one way or another.

I'm going to continue research on this topic.

But I did mean in the context of the most effective Rieekan GH Yavaris builds.

This is super helpful! Kudos to Giled for an excellent explanation of the ISD.

I'm going to use these suggestions once I can get my hands on the Chimaera, and I'll be practicing on Vassal. You got me excited about trying this list idea (I would welcome any suggestions):

Dual ISD fun with Thrawn (UNFINISHED)
Author: ImperialCaptain2017

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 393/400
Commander: Grand Admiral Thrawn

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Grand Admiral Thrawn ( 32 points)

- Chimaera (4pts)

- Intensify Firepower! (6pts)
- Wulff Yularen ( 7 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Reinforced Blast Doors ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 185 total ship cost

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

-Governor Pryce (7pts)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 133 total ship cost

4 TIE Interceptor Squadrons ( 44 points)
1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)
1 Lambda-class Shuttle ( 15 points)

I finally got to try my own version of this. It did very well in its first game, a 10-1 win, it still has a lot of weaknesses, my change was replacing the Arquitens with a Flechette Raider and 2 TIE Interceptors. The fleet I faced had 7 A-wing squads, the Raider was able to successfully Flechette 5 of them in one turn and over the course of 2 turns took out all the A-wings with ISD and Gozanti Flak. The 2 Interceptors didn't survive the engagement but they did their jobs keeping the A-wings in place long enough for my flak to do its work.

Obviously I need to play this against a variety of fleets but I was happy with its first flight.

Name: 4 Activation 2 ISD Raider
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Superior Positions

Imperial I (110)
• Moff Jerjerrod (23)
• Intel Officer (7)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• High-Capacity Ion Turbines (8)
• H9 Turbolasers (8)
= 160 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Imperial I (110)
• Intel Officer (7)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• High-Capacity Ion Turbines (8)
• H9 Turbolasers (8)
= 137 Points

Raider I (44)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Flechette Torpedoes (3)
= 51 Points

Squadrons:
• 2 x TIE Interceptor Squadron (22)
= 22 Points

Total Points: 395

Excellent read, thanks a ton for taking the time! Something I wanted to add based on my 2 ISD experience... Play around with the angles you deploy at. It's most people's instinct to either point ships straight at their opponents, whether that be straight ahead or from an angle to flank. In my experience, pointing ever so slightly away from what you're trying to kill often works best. As I see it, you don't want to be spending the first few turns going straight forward, use those clicks of yaw! It tends to be much easier to bring both to bear on a single target when you approach it this way.

So, in what definitely qualifies as a questionable decision given the likelihood of this list being my World Cup entrant, I revive this thread to serve as a discussion vehicle. Below please look through the poll of options and reply saying which you think is best, and if it's not too much trouble why you hold that belief.

Options A through C all include the addition of Chimaera and Entrapment Formation (immediately becoming Intensify Firepower!) to Jerjerrod's flagship, and all options are points-neutral.

Option A: Remove the Arquitens and the current Gozanti, replace it with two Assault Gozantis with Comms Net, and Whisper

Option B: Remove the Arquitens, replace it with one Assault Gozanti with Taskmaster Grint and Comms Net, and Whisper

Option C: Remove the Arquitens, replace it with one Assault Gozanti and another regular Gozantis, all with Comms Net

Option D: Giled, what in God's name are you doing? That list is very much a non-squeaky wheel, don't change it now!

First of all, many thanks for this topic. Your analysis is fascinating.

I have been playing around with double-ISD builds for several months, largely because to me it is the most iconic of all the Star Wars ships. But in February I will be using one such list in my first ever regional tournament. I will not have much time for testing, but despite that I have decided to substitute Cymoon-1 Refits for my usual ISD2s. The idea with the ISDs is to minimise the damage-reducing capability of the enemy. The Gladiator's role is similar to that of your Arquitens, but hopefully on steroids! And Vader is his usual dice-mitigating self. What are your thoughts?

Name: Cymoon are we! (apologies to P McC & Wings)
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Heavy Turbolaser Turrets (6)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 160 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Heavy Turbolaser Turrets (6)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 124 Points

Gladiator I (56)
• Fire-Control Team (2)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Demolisher (10)
= 73 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
= 23 Points

Squadrons:
• Black Squadron (9)
• Gamma Squadron (10)
= 19 Points

Total Points: 399

11 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

First of all, many thanks for this topic. Your analysis is fascinating.

I have been playing around with double-ISD builds for several months, largely because to me it is the most iconic of all the Star Wars ships. But in February I will be using one such list in my first ever regional tournament. I will not have much time for testing, but despite that I have decided to substitute Cymoon-1 Refits for my usual ISD2s. The idea with the ISDs is to minimise the damage-reducing capability of the enemy. The Gladiator's role is similar to that of your Arquitens, but hopefully on steroids! And Vader is his usual dice-mitigating self. What are your thoughts?

Name: Cymoon are we! (apologies to P McC & Wings)
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Heavy Turbolaser Turrets (6)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 160 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Heavy Turbolaser Turrets (6)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 124 Points

Gladiator I (56)
• Fire-Control Team (2)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Demolisher (10)
= 73 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
= 23 Points

Squadrons:
• Black Squadron (9)
• Gamma Squadron (10)
= 19 Points

Total Points: 399

Not sure I like the HTT and XI7. If you get an ACC its kind of a waste since you can lock down the brace (unless ECM). I would look at using Quads or XX-9s

10 hours ago, ripper998 said:

Not sure I like the HTT and XI7. If you get an ACC its kind of a waste since you can lock down the brace (unless ECM). I would look at using Quads or XX-9s

Thanks for the advice.

Yes, that's something I've considered. It's just that ECMs seem quite common.

In addition I've looked at H9s and Intel Officers to avoid having my attacks mitigated. If only I had more points!

5 hours ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Thanks for the advice.

Yes, that's something I've considered. It's just that ECMs seem quite common.

In addition I've looked at H9s and Intel Officers to avoid having my attacks mitigated. If only I had more points!

True but Ecm is an exhaust so your first shot with one isd gets them to exhaust and the second they are screwed

Also as per the FAQ the standard crit doesn't stack with the APT so your fire control teams are useless at the moment.

Go for ACMs or change FCT for Ordnance experts.

Try to get Gunnery Team on at least one of your Cymoons.

52 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

True but Ecm is an exhaust so your first shot with one isd gets them to exhaust and the second they are screwed

23 minutes ago, Mad Cat said:

Also as per the FAQ the standard crit doesn't stack with the APT so your fire control teams are useless at the moment.

Go for ACMs or change FCT for Ordnance experts.

Try to get Gunnery Team on at least one of your Cymoons.

Good points both, thanks. Back to the drawing board!

1 hour ago, Mad Cat said:

Try to get Gunnery Team on at least one of your Cymoons.

1

Completely missed the missing gunnery teams. That would be a must for me to include.

OK, revamped list - removed FCT, downgraded speedbumps, swapped HTT for XX9 and added GT. Thanks very much for the input. Now to try it out.

Name: Cymoon are we! (apologies to P McC & Wings)
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Advanced Gunnery
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Dangerous Territory

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Heavy Turbolaser Turrets (6)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 167 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
= 123 Points

Gladiator I (56)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Demolisher (10)
= 71 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
= 23 Points

Squadrons:
• 2 x TIE Fighter Squadron (16)
= 16 Points

Total Points: 400

In response to your latest post Giled, I'm a big fan of Whisper and I have a feeling assault gozantis with Intensify will be a thing, so I would totally at least put Option A on the table a few times and see how it does.

Edit: On a points-saving note, are the HCIT still necessary once you have Intensify Firepower? The extra dice are obviously still nice to have, but they aren't necessary for the guaranteed accuracy out of the side arcs anymore.

Sorry about the slow reply @Don Henderson fan club, I've been a little too busy in real life to give your post the thought you came here to get, but thankfully @ripper998 and @Mad Cat have covered for me. In short, the lists are both fine, though the latter is better, and using both HTT and XI7 tends to be ineffective in most cases, as the opponent will just brace and not redirect. If your intent is to achieve a boring effect, just XI7 tends to be more effective because you only lose one damage on the target shield (brace and 1 redirected, as opposed to just braced) but can use the other turbolaser slot for things like Spinal, H9 to block the brace, etc etc. However, Gunnery Team is practically an auto-include on the Cymoon, since that giant front arc creates a huge threat zone, and you hilariously increase your efficiency for seven points in a slot you would otherwise leave empty (probably).

As far as a dual Cymoon example that I would use, I can't fit in Demolisher after the upgrades I prefer, but this is what I would use.

Name: Don Henderson Example
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Solar Corona

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Intensify Firepower! (6)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 176 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 134 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Hondo Ohnaka (2)
• Comms Net (2)
= 27 Points

Arquitens Light Cruiser (54)
• Captain Needa (2)
• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
= 63 Points

Squadrons:
= 0 Points

Total Points: 400

On 1/9/2018 at 11:07 PM, GiledPallaeon said:

So, in what definitely qualifies as a questionable decision given the likelihood of this list being my World Cup entrant, I revive this thread to serve as a discussion vehicle. Below please look through the poll of options and reply saying which you think is best, and if it's not too much trouble why you hold that belief.

Options A through C all include the addition of Chimaera and Entrapment Formation (immediately becoming Intensify Firepower!) to Jerjerrod's flagship, and all options are points-neutral.

Option A: Remove the Arquitens and the current Gozanti, replace it with two Assault Gozantis with Comms Net, and Whisper

Option B: Remove the Arquitens, replace it with one Assault Gozanti with Taskmaster Grint and Comms Net, and Whisper

Option C: Remove the Arquitens, replace it with one Assault Gozanti and another regular Gozantis, all with Comms Net

Option D: Giled, what in God's name are you doing? That list is very much a non-squeaky wheel, don't change it now!

You probably know my take on Option C is kinda biased, since you have played against my version, but I am re-tooling with wave 7 toys and seeing if my Dual ISD list can use a facelift as well. Not sure why I left it for the world cup, honestly, losing my first two games, but hey. Sometimes you have to fall to realize how high up you were....lol.

I am re-reading the entire post to see if I missed anything. It's a great insight into this facet of the game.

14 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Sorry about the slow reply @Don Henderson fan club, I've been a little too busy in real life to give your post the thought you came here to get, but thankfully @ripper998 and @Mad Cat have covered for me. In short, the lists are both fine, though the latter is better, and using both HTT and XI7 tends to be ineffective in most cases, as the opponent will just brace and not redirect. If your intent is to achieve a boring effect, just XI7 tends to be more effective because you only lose one damage on the target shield (brace and 1 redirected, as opposed to just braced) but can use the other turbolaser slot for things like Spinal, H9 to block the brace, etc etc. However, Gunnery Team is practically an auto-include on the Cymoon, since that giant front arc creates a huge threat zone, and you hilariously increase your efficiency for seven points in a slot you would otherwise leave empty (probably).

As far as a dual Cymoon example that I would use, I can't fit in Demolisher after the upgrades I prefer, but this is what I would use.

Name: Don Henderson Example
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Darth Vader

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Solar Corona

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Darth Vader (36)
• Intensify Firepower! (6)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 176 Points

ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (112)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
= 134 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Hondo Ohnaka (2)
• Comms Net (2)
= 27 Points

Arquitens Light Cruiser (54)
• Captain Needa (2)
• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (7)
= 63 Points

Squadrons:
= 0 Points

Total Points: 400

My list is similar except on Vaders ISD I put strategic advisor and drop IF (didnt find I was using it alot), the second Cymoon I have Tua and an EWS, to round out the fleet I have 2 Gonzo cruisers with Comms Net and 4 Tie Fighters for Fodder.

2 minutes ago, moodswing5537 said:

You probably know my take on Option C is kinda biased, since you have played against my version, but I am re-tooling with wave 7 toys and seeing if my Dual ISD list can use a facelift as well. Not sure why I left it for the world cup, honestly, losing my first two games, but hey. Sometimes you have to fall to realize how high up you were....lol.

I am re-reading the entire post to see if I missed anything. It's a great insight into this facet of the game.

For the record, you are still the only BTA that's actually managed to beat me. The handful of other times I've fought it, it fell. And my WC fleet is my first pass at such a facelift. I'm beyond irritated that FFG had to wait to reveal Sovereign AFTER fleets were due, I totally would have replaced Relentless with it. In one fell swoop they had solved all of my token control problems and removed a solid 15-20% of my mental work every turn dedicated to that problem. *grumble grumble*

2 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

My list is similar except on Vaders ISD I put strategic advisor and drop IF (didnt find I was using it alot), the second Cymoon I have Tua and an EWS, to round out the fleet I have 2 Gonzo cruisers with Comms Net and 4 Tie Fighters for Fodder.

The utility of the Arquitens is definitely questionable in a dual Cymoon list, you want the extra ship for Vader, but at the same time you're not exactly lacking for long-range skirmishing. SA is definitely a useful card to add in, and IF and Vader is definitely redundant rerolls, but it's really in there to shield you from single blanks so you don't have to use Vader and potentially expose your tokens that way. All very situational, all useful in their own right.

2 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Sorry about the slow reply @Don Henderson fan club, I've been a little too busy in real life to give your post the thought you came here to get, but thankfully @ripper998 and @Mad Cat have covered for me. In short, the lists are both fine, though the latter is better, and using both HTT and XI7 tends to be ineffective in most cases, as the opponent will just brace and not redirect. If your intent is to achieve a boring effect, just XI7 tends to be more effective because you only lose one damage on the target shield (brace and 1 redirected, as opposed to just braced) but can use the other turbolaser slot for things like Spinal, H9 to block the brace, etc etc. However, Gunnery Team is practically an auto-include on the Cymoon, since that giant front arc creates a huge threat zone, and you hilariously increase your efficiency for seven points in a slot you would otherwise leave empty (probably).

As far as a dual Cymoon example that I would use, I can't fit in Demolisher after the upgrades I prefer, but this is what I would use.

No problem at all. Thank you very much for your advice.