18 hours ago, Daeglan said:

No. RAW does not say anything about the number hands used on a standard hilt. Do not take lack of words saying you can use a weapon 2 handed to imply you cant.

17 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I've never heard that saying, can you pm it to me (I'm assuming it uses not so nice language). BTW knowing tramp in real life since 2003 or 2004, I can say that he has a pattern of latching on to irrelevant details at the cost of missing the big picture, but he is very honest so he actually believes what he's saying is true.

So I recommend putting him on the spot to show us where what he's claiming is RAW is actually written, and if he fails to do that, in say 3 days, we all publicly discount what he's claimed (three days from now one person can post we reject what he says because he failed to provide proof and the rest of us like it if we agree). Arguing with him is like arguing with a brick wall that was built in the wrong place. It's futile/frustrating/and pointless.

And while it may appear otherwise, tramp is not a Troll. He's not mean spirited, vindictive, or manipulative and he honestly believes what he says is the unadulterated truth, not because he says it but rather he says it because he believes it's the unadulterated truth. He also isn't intentionally provocative just because he enjoys watching the ensuing **** storm, he just has subpar ability to say things diplomatically and his natural mode of communicating is argumentative and authoritarian, i.e. he doesn't consciously TRY to behave offensively. So maybe we can all be less argumentative back at him, and simply require him to provide proof of what he claims or be discounted (that should be a lot less frustrating for all involved).

Column 9 (Hands to wield) in Table 3-11 Lightsaber Template Profiles , on Page 86 of Endless Vigil : lists the Standard Lightsaber as One-handed.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Column 9 (Hands to wield) in Table 3-11 Lightsaber Template Profiles , on Page 86 of Endless Vigil : lists the Standard Lightsaber as One-handed.

It doesn't say exclusively. As in minimum requirements, care to try again?

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Column 9 (Hands to wield) in Table 3-11 Lightsaber Template Profiles , on Page 86 of Endless Vigil : lists the Standard Lightsaber as One-handed.

I must say Trampy, I'm proud of you. That is completely and 100% true and correct.

However, it does not list it as:

On 2017-12-15 at 8:57 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

strictly a one -handed weapon

On 2017-12-22 at 2:45 AM, Tramp Graphics said:

one-handed, and only one-handed

22 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

exclusively a one-handed weapon

It's not the one-handed part that's the issue. It's the strictly/only/exclusively part that's being called out as manure.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

It doesn't say exclusively. As in minimum requirements, care to try again?

1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

I must say Trampy, I'm proud of you. That is completely and 100% true and correct.

However, it does not list it as:

It's not the one-handed part that's the issue. It's the strictly/only/exclusively part that's being called out as manure.

Well, we may have to agree to disagree on the interpretations then. However, there is only one weapon I've read in the books which specifically states it can be used either one or two handed interchangeably without some form of mod or attachment, and that's the blaster carbine , which is normally used two-handed, but specifically states that it can be used one-handed at short range without penalty. So, it is specifically a one or two-handed weapon . Pretty much all other weapons in the books are exclusively one-handed or two-handed.

As I previously stated, a standard lightsaber hilt ranges from 20 cm to 30 cm. Converting centimeters to inches, 20 cm only comes out to just under 8" (7 and 7/8" to be precise). That is not really long enough for a two-handed grip unless you had really small hands. By the same token, 30 cm comes out to 11 and 13/16", almost a full foot in length. This is the length of a Katana's hilt or a proper Long sword or Bastard sword hilt, and easily accommodates a two-handed grip, without requiring it exclusively. That is the Extended Hilt Attachment. It should also be noted that in one of the Order 66 Podcasts , the developers have stated that you get the benefit of the Extended Hilt attachment regardless of whether you actually use one or two hands on the weapon, so it does specifically allow one or two-handed use interchangeably . This further supports my interpretation of the standard hilt as an exclusively one-handed weapon without this attachment.

The extended hilt mod allows a standard lightsaber to be used two-handed (for added leverage) without specifically turning it into an exclusively two-handed weapon, which is what the Two-Handed mod from Table 3-12: Spending Advantage, Triumph, Threat, and Despair on Lightsaber Crafting , row one on page 87 of Endless Vigil covers. And, given that there certainly are lightsaber hilts which absolutely could not accommodate two hands (such as Ezra's first lightsaber, pictured on page 86 of Endless Vigil ), concluding that the lightsaber hilts listed as "one-handed" are exclusively so , without the extended hilt attachment is not that big of a stretch. So, as far as I am concerned, the extended hilt attachment is required to allow a standard lightsaber to be used two-handed as well as one-handed. That is how I read the rules as written.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, we may have to agree to disagree on the interpretations then. However, there is only one weapon I've read in the books which specifically states it can be used either one or two handed interchangeably without some form of mod or attachment, and that's the blaster carbine , which is normally used two-handed, but specifically states that it can be used one-handed at short range without penalty. So, it is specifically a one or two-handed weapon . Pretty much all other weapons in the books are exclusively one-handed or two-handed.

As I previously stated, a standard lightsaber hilt ranges from 20 cm to 30 cm. Converting centimeters to inches, 20 cm only comes out to just under 8" (7 and 7/8" to be precise). That is not really long enough for a two-handed grip unless you had really small hands. By the same token, 30 cm comes out to 11 and 13/16", almost a full foot in length. This is the length of a Katana's hilt or a proper Long sword or Bastard sword hilt, and easily accommodates a two-handed grip, without requiring it exclusively. That is the Extended Hilt Attachment. It should also be noted that in one of the Order 66 Podcasts , the developers have stated that you get the benefit of the Extended Hilt attachment regardless of whether you actually use one or two hands on the weapon, so it does specifically allow one or two-handed use interchangeably . This further supports my interpretation of the standard hilt as an exclusively one-handed weapon without this attachment.

The extended hilt mod allows a standard lightsaber to be used two-handed (for added leverage) without specifically turning it into an exclusively two-handed weapon, which is what the Two-Handed mod from Table 3-12: Spending Advantage, Triumph, Threat, and Despair on Lightsaber Crafting , row one on page 87 of Endless Vigil covers. And, given that there certainly are lightsaber hilts which absolutely could not accommodate two hands (such as Ezra's first lightsaber, pictured on page 86 of Endless Vigil ), concluding that the lightsaber hilts listed as "one-handed" are exclusively so , without the extended hilt attachment is not that big of a stretch. So, as far as I am concerned, the extended hilt attachment is required to allow a standard lightsaber to be used two-handed as well as one-handed. That is how I read the rules as written.

I take it you have never used a gun, or a carbine, or any swords etc. I have used all. Pistols i primarily use 2 handed. Carbines i can use either way. The carbine lists both options because their are mechanical implications to each. There are not for the others. By the way the Devs have said you can use lightsabers one or two handed on podcasts. By the way the rules dont state you can blink. Do you not allow your characters to blink?

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I take it you have never used a gun, or a carbine, or any swords etc. I have used all. Pistols i primarily use 2 handed. Carbines i can use either way. The carbine lists both options because their are mechanical implications to each. There are not for the others. By the way the Devs have said you can use lightsabers one or two handed on podcasts. By the way the rules dont state you can blink. Do you not allow your characters to blink?

Actually, I have four years in the US Army under my belt. I was qualified with the M-16, the M-60, M-203, LAW, and Grenades in Basic Training, and maintained qualifications in the first two throughout my time in the Army. In fact, I was my platoon M-60 gunner on top of my regular duties, during Operation Desert Storm. I also own a Celtic Broad sword and a Germanic Scramaseax, as well as a Bokken. So yes, I am actually very familiar with weapons.

It should also be noted that both of the swords I own are exclusively one-handed swords and do not accommodate a two-handed grip.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It should also be noted that both of the swords I own are exclusively one-handed swords and do not accommodate a two-handed grip.

Neither do blaster pistols, yet...

But that's Han Solo! He breaks the rules all the time!

Oh well, but that's two people in the entire galaxy, surely there can't be any more? Nothing like the entire crew of a ship?

I guess those pistols have extended grips.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And, given that there certainly are lightsaber hilts which absolutely could not accommodate two hands (such as Ezra's first lightsaber, pictured on page 86 of Endless Vigil )

You mean this lightsaber?

Indeed, that clearly looks quite impossible. Those are certainly not two handed grips either when using it as a pistol nor as a lightsaber. Absolutely not. No sirree, Bob.

Seriously, are you even trying to back up your claims at this point?

15 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Would you say that a katana would be as practical as a saber (or other dedicated single handed sword) in a strictly one-handed fencing style, given enough practice and disregarding the issue of hand protection?

What you are talking about is balance, as I wrote. Most cutting swords (and I've handled quite some originals from various eras) tend to have the PoB about a handswidth in front of the guard, so they "draw" the cut, while primarily thrusting swords (like rapiers) have the PoB on or sometimes even behind the guard. Cavalry sabers tend to have the PoB even farther out, as they are intended to slash from horseback, not perform small fencing movements.

15 hours ago, penpenpen said:

While a long grip can be used with two hands to impart leverage, a single arm does make for a longer, and more efficient lever than two. Would you agree or disagree?

Disagree. A single hand has almost no leverage at all - because it has no fixed point for the lever to turn on. That's provided by the hand near the guard.

15 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Out of curiosity, what kinds of blades do these LED-sabers have?

Polycarbonate tubes with varying wall-thickness.

15 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Would you mind elaborating on what you would consider to be benefiting from a two handed grip?

A more solid parry, more control in the bind and faster changes of direction of the blade. And: your footwork can be a bit slower than with one-handed wielding, as you can rely on leverage to parry, even if your blade position is not perfect (with one hand those parries would be smashed through, so you have to void a lot more than parry).

15 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Wow. That is essentially smallsword balancing. It should be damned quick!

Even with a Heavygrade blade (which has considerable weight), most hilt replicas balance indeed someting like a smallsword,though the hilt does not lend itself to the small movements of smallsword fencing.

As I wrote before, as Kanan puts it, the lighstaber blade should be something akin to a steel swordblade (though more of the cutting type probably). It has weight, though not as heavy as Lucas' had in mind in IV and V, and it sticks to another blade in the bind.

15 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Would you say that a katana would be as practical as a saber (or other dedicated single handed sword) in a strictly one-handed fencing style, given enough practice and disregarding the issue of hand protection?

History can answer this question for me (and you). In WWI and II, some Japanese officers had their Katana mounted in Prussian-style saberhilts and fought in an adapted saber-style. The only thing limiting the single-handed use of a Katana is the long hilt catching on the forearm. The hilt is just made out of wood, so there is almost no counterweight to the blade. Saberguards are sometimes even heavier than this, so the PoB moves somewhat back.

Do what works for your own game. If you enjoy it, and your players do too, then what's the issue?

6 hours ago, LadySkywalker said:

Do what works for your own game. If you enjoy it, and your players do too, then what's the issue?

It's simple, one can't incite disharmony by accepting that others might have a different opinion than one's self, and that opinions are all we have. Only by grasping pedantic dogma and presenting it as doctrine can one continue to sow dissent and breed the sort of illness that sickens the average forum-goer.

p.s. Sorry I dropped that on your post, @LadySkywalker - I was just blurting it out and I did not mean to imply that you have been anything but a model contributor.

10 hours ago, Sunrider said:

Disagree. A single hand has almost no leverage at all - because it has no fixed point for the lever to turn on. That's provided by the hand near the guard.

Oh, I was thinking of the arm as the lever, fixed at the shoulder, but when I think about it, that would be something specific to cutting with the blade in a hammer grip at a near right angle from the forearm (I have not tried this in practice), rather than one handed use in general. Allegedly it delivers a pretty nasty draw cut at the expense of range, at least with something like a tulwar. Matt Easton of Schola Gladiatoria has few videos on tulwars if you're interested, but as I cant really see much similarity between tulwar use and lightsabers, I'm not going to bother digging up the right video and time stamp.

11 hours ago, Sunrider said:

History can answer this question for me (and you). In WWI and II, some Japanese officers had their Katana mounted in Prussian-style saberhilts and fought in an adapted saber-style. The only thing limiting the single-handed use of a Katana is the long hilt catching on the forearm. The hilt is just made out of wood, so there is almost no counterweight to the blade. Saberguards are sometimes even heavier than this, so the PoB moves somewhat back.

Well, that's not surprising as the mass produced japanese military swords from 1875-1934 could be pretty much described as a saber-hilted katanas. Of course, that begs the question: If you only expected to only use your sword in one hand (let's say, for simplicity's sake that you only have one hand due to an unfortunate and embarrassing wood chipper accident) would there be any point in going with the traditional katana hilt? How much would the hilt catching on the forearm be a hindrance in a move like a moulinette?

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 8:24 AM, penpenpen said:

My experience with handling swords, katanas in particular, seems, in comparison rather peripheral, so I'm gonna pick your brain a bit on this one. True, we've strayed somewhat from the original purpose of the post, but hey, it's the internet. It happens. I've rejected the OP's topic and substituted my own.
And since he has gracefully bowed out of it, I'm going to assume it's fine to keep exploring this sidetrack.

From my meager experience, I do get the impression that a katana tends to "default" to a two-handed grip, and handling it with a single hand is perfectly serviceable if there's something you need to do with it that requires a one handed grip. The same goes for bastard swords, and to a lesser extent even longswords. However, once again from my limited experience, I've found such swords decidedly less agile in single handed use compared to say a cavalry saber, a side sword or an arming sword, but that might be a matter of practice? Would you say that a katana would be as practical as a saber (or other dedicated single handed sword) in a strictly one-handed fencing style, given enough practice and disregarding the issue of hand protection?

Interesting. I've gotten the impression that another point of two handed use would be (simplified) to trade reach for control. One of the RPG myths that HEMA has killed for me is two handed swords are for the big and strong, when it seems the opposite is quite to true, as a weaker, untrained person has an easier time handling a longsword with both hands compared to the single handed use of an arming sword in sword and buckler. Another one, equally counter-intuitive, would be that a two-handed cut is inherently more powerful than a single handed one. While a long grip can be used with two hands to impart leverage, a single arm does make for a longer, and more efficient lever than two. Would you agree or disagree?

Very interesting! Out of curiosity, what kinds of blades do these LED-sabers have? I'm guessing some kind of plastic comparable to a nylon practice sword?

Would you mind elaborating on what you would consider to be benefiting from a two handed grip? The way I read it, and to my understanding of swordsmanship, if there's no benefit to a two handed grip, you're better off going full on Dooku and using it pretty much exclusively in a single-handed saber/rapier style?

Wow. That is essentially smallsword balancing. It should be damned quick!

That said, with the wildly varying theories of the "weight" of a lightsaber's blade, estimating the balance of them would be conjecture at best. As it seems the blade has negligible mass, it would be fair to assume they also have negligible weight, but this exchange between Sabine and Kanan seem to contradict this:

" It's heavier than I thought."
"Energy constantly flows through the crystal. You're not fighting with a simple blade as much as you are directing a current of power. "

Which gels with Lucas' original idea from the original trilogy that due to power of the weapons, both hands would be needed to control them at all times, even if he walked this idea back to some degree with the prequels. I've always imagined it somewhat like holding on to a powerful water hose, but maybe that's just me. It's not always consistent either, as Luke doesn't seem to have any trouble with Anakin's single handed, despite never handling one before.

It would've been hilarious if Luke accidentally decapitated C3PO in that scene. Maybe in the extra special super deluxe redux version?

Apparently Old Ben Kenobi isn't overly concerned with safety precautions or, you know, giving Luke the slightest idea that he's about to activate a laser chainsaw on steroids. Oh well, it's not like he blindfolded the kid and told him to play around with it on board a spaceship.

The problem with trying to generalize katana is period made a difference in how it was handled, blade geometry, and hilt (tsuka) length. At some times a short (9") tsuka was the industry standard. At ~9" the sword handles almost like a baseball bat in large hands. Also keep in mind that many blades were 27 - 31 inches, making it a fairly short range sword vs a rapier for example which is closer to a 40" blade as I believe are most European weapons from similar time frames. Also depending on the blade style the tsuka length matters too, some katana had a very heavy blade designed to cut through people, horses, and their armor. In turn often these swords also had a slightly longer tsuka (if my memory is working properly). Finally there are the schools which taught various technique based on location, smiths, and sword shape. Some schools favored a longer tsuka with shorter blade, some the opposite. We can also toss all of this out the window and leave it to the individual to decide what tsuka length they desire.

One handed vs two handed use: This is simple iaido is a one shot deal, draw - kill. If this doesn't happen you're doing it wrong. I'd have to look up the history of this specific art. I'd wager in a larger scale battle the ability to use the sword one or two handed would be preferable due to maintaining the ability to do something else with the other hand like punch an opponent in the face or the like. Some styles of iaido have something (not sure of the proper word) dedicated to one hand use. Keep in mind we're not talking about fencing here we are talking about definitive cuts to kill an enemy.

3 hours ago, themensch said:

It's simple, one can't incite disharmony by accepting that others might have a different opinion than one's self, and that opinions are all we have. Only by grasping pedantic dogma and presenting it as doctrine can one continue to sow dissent and breed the sort of illness that sickens the average forum-goer.

p.s. Sorry I dropped that on your post, @LadySkywalker - I was just blurting it out and I did not mean to imply that you have been anything but a model contributor.

Not a problem!

19 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Neither do blaster pistols, yet...

But that's Han Solo! He breaks the rules all the time!

Oh well, but that's two people in the entire galaxy, surely there can't be any more? Nothing like the entire crew of a ship?

I guess those pistols have extended grips.

Those pistols don't accommodate two hands on the grip itself . The second hand is used as a brace upon which the other hand rests.

They're still being used two-handed in those instances, which are canon, meaning that those who want to interpret the rules like that can. Same goes for you, Tramp Graphics.

3 minutes ago, LadySkywalker said:

They're still being used two-handed in those instances, which are canon, meaning that those who want to interpret the rules like that can. Same goes for you, Tramp Graphics.

That's not the point.

21 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

However, there is only one weapon I've read in the books which specifically states it can be used either one or two handed interchangeably without some form of mod or attachment, and that's the blaster carbine , which is normally used two-handed, but specifically states that it can be used one-handed at short range without penalty. So, it is specifically a one or two-handed weapon . Pretty much all other weapons in the books are exclusively one-handed or two-handed.

Tramp, i hope that your not to blind to see that your example supports the point of view your arguing against. But in case you can't see it, in order to support that a particular weapon was exclusively one handed, as opposed to one or two with no game mechanical distinction, you would need to present a number of examples of of weapons being specifically called out as either one or two handed WITHOUT specific rules/different behavior in one verses two hands. So far you've got zero examples that support your argument, which means all extant examples are evidence AGAINST your point of view. Are you actually incapable of seeing that?

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's not the point.

The point is that unless there is a rule that EXPLICITLY states, without room for dispute or argument, that a weapon can or cannot be used in a certain way - and so far, there isn't, there are merely wordings or phrases that have been quoted that leave the final ruling open to interpretation by the GM - then it's entirely the prerogative of each GM and gaming group to determine what is and what isn't suitable for their game . For example, at my table, lightsabers can be used one- or two-handed regardless of attachment or mod, and that's fine; and at yours, perhaps the opposite is true, and that's also fine .

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Tramp, i hope that your not to blind to see that your example supports the point of view your arguing against. But in case you can't see it, in order to support that a particular weapon was exclusively one handed, as opposed to one or two with no game mechanical distinction, you would need to present a number of examples of of weapons being specifically called out as either one or two handed WITHOUT specific rules/different behavior in one verses two hands. So far you've got zero examples that support your argument, which means all extant examples are evidence AGAINST your point of view. Are you actually incapable of seeing that?

I disagree. We only see two examples of weapons specifically called out as being interchangeably usable one or two handed, one being the Blaster Carbine and the other being a lightsaber with the extended hilt attachment . Pretty much every other weapon listed is as one or the other primarily (as is the case with lightsabers) in their template tables, Ranged Light weapons are one-handed weapons, Ranged Heavy weapons are two-handed (except carbines which are interchangeable at short range).

to quote:

Quote

Ranged (Light)

Light ranged weapons are those weapons which can generally be wielded in one hand, such as a blaster pistol or other handgun. Light Ranged weapons also include one-handed thrown items, such as bolas, knives, and grenades.

Other one-handed weapons from RAW include the Voss War Spear and Bardottan Electrolance, ( Nexus of Power ) both of which are flat out stated to be one-handed weapons. Both specifically state this. The write-ups don't say these weapons "can" be use one handed. They say these weapons are one-handed weapons. By contrast, the Gungan Electropole ( Nexus of Power ) simply states that it is light enough to be well suited to use in one hand. The Standard lightsaber hilt template in Endless Vigil is listed as a one-handed weapon, not "one or two handed." It is only through the Extended Hilt attachment that allows the use of two hands, while still also retaining one handed use, while the two-handed option from page 87 makes the lightsaber an exclusively two-handed weapon. One-handed weapons like these are specifically balanced to be wielded with one hand, and have grips that only accommodate one hand.

The Standard Lightsaber hilt template, as written, is balanced for one hand, and the grip is designed for one hand only. The same with the Shoto (Precision Saber Hilt), Guard Shoto (Defensive Saber Hilt), Lightsaber dagger (Precision Saber Hilt), and Lightfoil (Precision Saber Hilt). These are all listed as one-handed weapons. By RAW, these weapons gain no mechanical benefit from being wielded two-handed and the grips do not accommodate two hands . An extended hilt attachment is required to fit, and benefit from, a two-handed grip. A dagger is a one-handed weapon, it's hilt cannot accommodate two hands. An arming sword is a one-handed weapon, the grip of the hilt only accommodates one hand. By contrast, the Long sword and Katana are both "hand and a half" swords with hilts long enough to grip with two hands spaced apart for added leverage, but which can be wielded one-handed. Obi-Wan's lightsaber has a hilt which is long enough to grip with two hands spaced apart for added leverage (as opposed to one around the other, or bunched up together) while still being able to be wielded one handed as well. A lightsaber with a 20 cm hilt is an exclusively one-handed weapon (unless you had really small hands) whereas one with a 30 cm hilt can be wielded either one or two handed. The 30 cm hilt is a lightsaber hilt with the Extended Hilt attachment. The two-handed result in the Endless Vigil Lightsaber construction table on page 87, requires a two-handed grip.

As I've said: do what works for you. My world won't end if you disagree with me, and you shouldn't lose sleep if I go with what I prefer at my own table.

As to the original post: I'm curious to know where and how the group came upon Obi-Wan's lightsaber. Care to share the undoubtedly interesting tale?

Just now, LadySkywalker said:

The point is that unless there is a rule that EXPLICITLY states, without room for dispute or argument, that a weapon can or cannot be used in a certain way - and so far, there isn't, there are merely wordings or phrases that have been quoted that leave the final ruling open to interpretation by the GM - then it's entirely the prerogative of each GM and gaming group to determine what is and what isn't suitable.

No, that isn't the point. Besides, as I have already pointed out, the tables in Endless Vigil do state that these hilts are one-handed, not one or two-handed. And, as I've posted above, we also have at least two other examples of weapons which are specifically listed as being specifically one handed. Thus, if a weapon is listed as one-handed, that means it is exclusively a one-handed weapon.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, that isn't the point. Besides, as I have already pointed out, the tables in Endless Vigil do state that these hilts are one-handed, not one or two-handed. And, as I've posted above, we also have at least two other examples of weapons which are specifically listed as being specifically one handed. Thus, if a weapon is listed as one-handed, that means it is exclusively a one-handed weapon.

As I said: your game, your rules. More power to you.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Other one-handed weapons from RAW include the Voss War Spear and Bardottan Electrolance, ( Nexus of Power ) both of which are flat out stated to be one-handed weapons. Both specifically state this. The write-ups don't say these weapons "can" be use one handed. They say these weapons are one-handed weapons. By contrast, the Gungan Electropole ( Nexus of Power ) simply states that it is light enough to be well suited to use in one hand.

So are you going to argue that there isn't enough room on a voss war spear for a second hand to grip it? Despite it being described as about two metres (200cm/6½ feet) long? Nowhere for the second hand to go?

And then we have the electrolance.

No length is given, but "The lance is carried like a walking stick, with the longer end extended above the wielder's head." implies that it's close to man sized. Even if it was impossible to grip it anywhere else but the grip, that grip should be at least as long as a katana's.

Or maybe the length of the grip isn't important anymore?

Let's summarize your arguments:

1. The rules says "One-handed weapon", yet you have been unable to quote any piece of text referring to only/strictly/exclusively one-handed use.

2. The grip is too small to fit two hands, yet multiple images that disprove this have been posted.

2.1.b, chapter 2, paragraph 3½

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Those pistols don't accommodate two hands on the grip itself . The second hand is used as a brace upon which the other hand rests.

Huh, so it doesn't count if the hands aren't touching an actual grip? I bet there's some pistol shooters who would balk at his out there, but not I. Let me instead introduce you to my, obviously one-handed, pulse cannon.

Clearly, there is only room for one hand on that grip, and gripping the barrel shroud would simply count as bracing the weapon. Clearly a one-handed weapon. It makes perfect sense.

Wait, is gripping the barrel a viable two handed grip? Why didn't you say so!

The guy up front needs to know he's violating RAW.

...

Look, at your table you can rule it anyway you like, but when you start yelling about Rules as Written, you are telling everyone else that they are doing it wrong.

You've argued your point. You've contradicted yourself. You've tangled your arguments into such a hot mess that asbestos catches fire in their vicinity.

I'm starting worry about you man, because at this point I'm not sure if you're having serious delusions or if you're so full of it that, were you an organ donor, the price of fertilizer would noticeably drop at the time of your death.

3 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

So are you going to argue that there isn't enough room on a voss war spear for a second hand to grip it? Despite it being described as about two metres (200cm/6½ feet) long? Nowhere for the second hand to go?

And then we have the electrolance.

No length is given, but "The lance is carried like a walking stick, with the longer end extended above the wielder's head." implies that it's close to man sized. Even if it was impossible to grip it anywhere else but the grip, that grip should be at least as long as a katana's.

Or maybe the length of the grip isn't important anymore?

Let's summarize your arguments:

1. The rules says "One-handed weapon", yet you have been unable to quote any piece of text referring to only/strictly/exclusively one-handed use.

2. The grip is too small to fit two hands, yet multiple images that disprove this have been posted.

2.1.b, chapter 2, paragraph 3½

Huh, so it doesn't count if the hands aren't touching an actual grip? I bet there's some pistol shooters who would balk at his out there, but not I. Let me instead introduce you to my, obviously one-handed, pulse cannon.

Clearly, there is only room for one hand on that grip, and gripping the barrel shroud would simply count as bracing the weapon. Clearly a one-handed weapon. It makes perfect sense.

...

Look, at your table you can rule it anyway you like, but when you start yelling about Rules as Written, you are telling everyone else that they are doing it wrong.

You've argued your point. You've contradicted yourself. You've tangled your arguments into such a hot mess that asbestos catches fire in their vicinity.

I'm starting worry about you man, because at this point I'm not sure if you're having serious delusions or if you're so full of it that, were you an organ donor, the price of fertilizer would crash at the time of your death.

Both the Voss War Spear and Bartottan Electrolance explicitly state that they are one-handed weapons, specifically ones which also cannot be used with other weapons aside from a shield. they are both balanced for one-handed use only. In essence they are specifically designed to be used one handed in conjunction with a shield, much like the lances of old used in jousting.

To quote:

Quote

Bardottan Electrolance

Bardottans traditionally wield a one-handed lance as a ceremonial weapon. <snip>

<snip>The grip of the Bardottan Electrolance is placed in the middle of the weapon. The lance is carried like a walking stick with the longer end extending above the wielder's head. It is the longer end that is used to strike a foe. In combat the shorter end is typically pivoted to parry incoming attacks. The shorter end also incorporates a counterweight making it better balanced for one-handed use.

The Bardottan Electrolance is a one-handed weapon , however, it cannot be wielded with other weapons. It may, at GM's discretion, be wielded while using a shield.

Nowhere in that text does it say this weapon can be used two-handed. It repeatedly states that it is to be used with one hand. That is what it is designed and balanced for, not two-handed use, much like a javelin.

The Voss Warspear says pretty much the same thing in this regard. It is designed to be wielded in one hand .

The Standard, Precision, and Defensive lightsaber templates also are specifically stated to be one-handed weapons.

A rifle has a forward grip and is balanced for a two-handed use. Pistols don't have that. Pistols only have a pistol grip which accommodates one hand. The second hand can be used as a brace, but this doesn't provide any mechanical advantage. A rifle is specifically designed and requires a two-handed grip, with one hand on the pistol grip and the second hand on the forward grip under the barrel.