6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

No it really isnt. Iaijutsu is all about drawing and using the katana in one handed strikes.

To put it another way. I have a broadsword made by a master bladesmith and a katana made by the same master blade smith. The katana is of similar weight. The broadsword is wielded 1 handed. The katana is just as easily wielded 1 handed.

Oh cool! Which bladesmith?

And by "broadsword", I assume you mean a Scottish basket hilt, or maybe just colloquial term for an arming sword? If you have pics, I'd love to see them, as the terminology isn't always unambiguous.

Of course you can use a katana single handedly, the same as you could with a bastard or longsword (even easier, perhaps, on account of the katana's short blade), but unless your off-hand is busy or missing, you'd generally want to have both hands on it unless performing a specific maneuver that's easier with a single hand, like drawing the sword or extending your range. Sure, iaido is all about drawing and cutting with a single hand, but that's by necessity, as drawing a sword with both hands would be awkward to say the least. And even iaido has a few two handed maneuvers.

Compare this with a dedicated single handed sword, like a tulwar, a scottish basket hilt, a so-called viking sword or a cavalry saber. Even if you don't have shield, youd probably use these swords single handedly as, due to their design and balance, that's what they're made for.

Consider the traditional saber stance where the off hand is usually kept behind one's back and away from the opponent. Would this stance work with a katana? Of course, but it's not playing to the strengths of the weapon, the same way you could make a two-handed kenjutsu stance work with a cavalry saber if you really wanted to.

My long winded point is, the katana is a two handed weapon by default, with single handed use an option.

Lightsabers tend to be the same way, but are, due to their nature, slightly more one-hand friendly as the extra control afforded by the second hand isn't as important when little things like edge alignment don't matter.

10 hours ago, Vergence said:

Might want to consider the xenology for each species gender, age and biology for hand portion to hilt. The shoto wasn’t a shoto for Yoda and most blade lengths are adjustable too.

While adjustable blade lengths are possible, and even plausible, I am not aware of any examples beyond Corran Horn's lightsaber from Legends (which is covered by the the dual phase modification attachment) and Corran's saber switched between two set lengths, rather than being truly adjustable. All evidence point to that a lightsaber's blade length is more or less set during construction and would need at least some disassembly to be adjusted. It doesn't seem to be something easily done on the fly.

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Miyomoto Musashi would not agree with you. A katana can be used quite well 1 handed.

That guy was something of a freak though and most people didn't have his freakish brute strength. I think his manuals also mention that dual wielding is good for the novelty but if it doesn't get them early on you might as well switch back to one blade.

I recall fighting in LARP once and came up against someone with two weapons, when I had one and no shield. He turned to face me, front on, both weapons forward. My immediate thought was "ok, I've won". Had he stood edge on with one forward and one in reserve, and then proved to be able to switch which hand led, I'd have been utter toast!

8 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Oh cool! Which bladesmith?

And by "broadsword", I assume you mean a Scottish basket hilt, or maybe just colloquial term for an arming sword? If you have pics, I'd love to see them, as the terminology isn't always unambiguous.

Of course you can use a katana single handedly, the same as you could with a bastard or longsword (even easier, perhaps, on account of the katana's short blade), but unless your off-hand is busy or missing, you'd generally want to have both hands on it unless performing a specific maneuver that's easier with a single hand, like drawing the sword or extending your range. Sure, iaido is all about drawing and cutting with a single hand, but that's by necessity, as drawing a sword with both hands would be awkward to say the least. And even iaido has a few two handed maneuvers.

Compare this with a dedicated single handed sword, like a tulwar, a scottish basket hilt, a so-called viking sword or a cavalry saber. Even if you don't have shield, youd probably use these swords single handedly as, due to their design and balance, that's what they're made for.

Consider the traditional saber stance where the off hand is usually kept behind one's back and away from the opponent. Would this stance work with a katana? Of course, but it's not playing to the strengths of the weapon, the same way you could make a two-handed kenjutsu stance work with a cavalry saber if you really wanted to.

My long winded point is, the katana is a two handed weapon by default, with single handed use an option.

Lightsabers tend to be the same way, but are, due to their nature, slightly more one-hand friendly as the extra control afforded by the second hand isn't as important when little things like edge alignment don't matter.

Nope irish ring hilt.

I see katanas like bastard swords. Capable of either use.

Well, two hands on a lightsaber really does make sense, especially for the less-experienced technique Luke had in the OT. Two hands means greater control, which is desirable when your blade is made of plasma burning at two million degrees.

I think Yoda and Obi-Wan taught Luke exclusively two-handed techniques, because he was just inexperienced enough that he was very likely to cause collateral damage with his blade if tried one-handing. Vader has some one-handed techniques, but he's a bit clumsy in the suit, so mostly used two hands for the exact same reason. Prequel Jedi used mostly two-hands, but could one-hand if they wanted, because they'd been training all their lives with these weapons and had enough experience and knowledge to keep firm control of the blade at all times, number of hands irrelevant.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I see katanas like bastard swords. Capable of either use.

True, but it's not optimized for one handed use like an arming sword, and would be slightly more sluggish and unwieldy compared to them, just as it most likely would come up short (pun intended) against a "true" longsword when it comes to reach. So, if you have a bastard sword, you would use it one handed with a shield (or in rare cases, an offhand weapon, like a dagger), or two handed if your off hand was free. Using it just one handed like a rapier or saber would be playing to it's weaknesses as a compromise weapon. Of course, there would be times where it would be advantageous to throw in the occasional single handed cut or lunge for a few extra inches of reach, but that could be done with a dedicated longsword as well (but perhaps not quite as easily).

It does make katanas and bastard sword very flexible weapons, as you can have a one-handed weapon when the situation calls for it (on horseback, with a shield etc.), but otherwise works best as a two handed one. If you only had one hand however, you would do better picking an arming sword over a bastard sword every single time.

When it comes to lightsabers, they seem to be in the same ballpark since we hardly ever see anyone use them single handedly except for occasional maneuvers, or when their other hand is otherwise engaged (dual wielding, force use, holding on for dear life). Dooku is pretty much the anomaly, but his lightsaber is on the other hand clearly optimized for a single handed grip.

Dare I present a Life Day miracle that there is a troll in the midst here and we are all playing along?

Great talk about swords and lightsabers, so it's not all for naught. But really, feeding the troll only encourages the troll, like feeding a raccoon trash.

47 minutes ago, themensch said:

Dare I present a Life Day miracle that there is a troll in the midst here and we are all playing along?

Great talk about swords and lightsabers, so it's not all for naught. But really, feeding the troll only encourages the troll, like feeding a raccoon trash.

I think the world "troll" is a bit too harsh a term for anyone who has recently replied to this thread and the two folks who were a bit contrarian towards the majority opinion seemed to either have accepted defeat or agreed to disagree.

43 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I think the world "troll" is a bit too harsh a term for anyone who has recently replied to this thread and the two folks who were a bit contrarian towards the majority opinion seemed to either have accepted defeat or agreed to disagree.

If only my opinion were based upon this thread alone....

FWIW, it's as much how things are said as it is what is said. I stand by my assessment and I'd be happy to continue the conversation in PMs as I wouldn't want to continue to derail our beautiful thread any further.

On 12/23/2017 at 8:28 PM, Daeglan said:

Miyomoto Musashi would not agree with you. A katana can be used quite well 1 handed.

On 12/23/2017 at 9:49 PM, amuller93 said:

Is the exception not the rule. Katanas are made for use in both hands

On 12/23/2017 at 10:35 PM, Daeglan said:

No it really isnt. Iaijutsu is all about drawing and using the katana in one handed strikes.

To put it another way. I have a broadsword made by a master bladesmith and a katana made by the same master blade smith. The katana is of similar weight. The broadsword is wielded 1 handed. The katana is just as easily wielded 1 handed.

@Daeglan is correct here. Katanas are made to be used either one or two-handed, not exclusively two-handed. The same with a Bastard Sword or traditional long sword. These are often called Hand-and-a-half swords. All of these swords had hilts that were extende to allow the weapon to be wielded two-handed, but did not explicitly require a two-handed grip. This is also true of the extended hilt attachment. It does not require the use of two hands, but simply allows the use of two hands when extra power is desired. Without it, the lightsaber is exclusively a one-handed weapon by RAW.

On 12/23/2017 at 10:34 PM, Daeglan said:

No her hand is not. It is the standard length. One should consider she is not a super big person.

Exactly,as far as stature goes, Ahsoka is a very small girl, probably no more than 5' tall, and has small hands as well.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

@Daeglan is correct here. Katanas are made to be used either one or two-handed, not exclusively two-handed. The same with a Bastard Sword or traditional long sword. These are often called Hand-and-a-half swords. All of these swords had hilts that were extende to allow the weapon to be wielded two-handed, but did not explicitly require a two-handed grip. This is also true of the extended hilt attachment. It does not require the use of two hands, but simply allows the use of two hands when extra power is desired. Without it, the lightsaber is exclusively a one-handed weapon by RAW.

Exactly,as far as stature goes, Ahsoka is a very small girl, probably no more than 5' tall, and has small hands as well.

Please cite a book and page that says lightsaber are exclusively one handed without an extended grip.

You're claiming it's Rules As Written so show us where it's written.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Without it, the lightsaber is exclusively a one-handed weapon by RAW.

Oh, sweet Trampy, we've been through this. Just because you put that word in bold does not change the fact that it's not in the book and that you made it up.

RAW does not stand for "Rules As reWritten by me", but you cling to your supposed authority with such conviction that I am beginning to suspect that your mere existance disproves the old saying about what you can't fit in a five pound bag.

On 12/24/2017 at 4:29 AM, penpenpen said:

While adjustable blade lengths are possible, and even plausible, I am not aware of any examples beyond Corran Horn's lightsaber from Legends (which is covered by the the dual phase modification attachment) and Corran's saber switched between two set lengths, rather than being truly adjustable. All evidence point to that a lightsaber's blade length is more or less set during construction and would need at least some disassembly to be adjusted. It doesn't seem to be something easily done on the fly.

I have a few examples that I wasn't aware of until I recently did research for a character of my mine constructing a lightsaber. Here are two images that mention blade length adjusters and a scene in Star Wars Rebels discussing it.

" There's a control on the side that adjusts the length to your height ".

As for the crystal, I don't know if anyone brought it up yet, but Obi-Wan was a Soresu practitioner which is all about defense, the Lorrdian Gemstone when fully upgraded gives 2 Ranged and Melee defense. Just my 2 cents worth.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

@Daeglan is correct here. Katanas are made to be used either one or two-handed, not exclusively two-handed. The same with a Bastard Sword or traditional long sword. These are often called Hand-and-a-half swords. All of these swords had hilts that were extende to allow the weapon to be wielded two-handed, but did not explicitly require a two-handed grip. This is also true of the extended hilt attachment. It does not require the use of two hands, but simply allows the use of two hands when extra power is desired. Without it, the lightsaber is exclusively a one-handed weapon by RAW.

Exactly,as far as stature goes, Ahsoka is a very small girl, probably no more than 5' tall, and has small hands as well.

No. RAW does not say anything about the number hands used on a standard hilt. Do not take lack of words saying you can use a weapon 2 handed to imply you cant.

2 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Oh, sweet Trampy, we've been through this. Just because you put that word in bold does not change the fact that it's not in the book and that you made it up.

RAW does not stand for "Rules As reWritten by me", but you cling to your supposed authority with such conviction that I am beginning to suspect that your mere existance disproves the old saying about what you can't fit in a five pound bag.

I've never heard that saying, can you pm it to me (I'm assuming it uses not so nice language). BTW knowing tramp in real life since 2003 or 2004, I can say that he has a pattern of latching on to irrelevant details at the cost of missing the big picture, but he is very honest so he actually believes what he's saying is true.

So I recommend putting him on the spot to show us where what he's claiming is RAW is actually written, and if he fails to do that, in say 3 days, we all publicly discount what he's claimed (three days from now one person can post we reject what he says because he failed to provide proof and the rest of us like it if we agree). Arguing with him is like arguing with a brick wall that was built in the wrong place. It's futile/frustrating/and pointless.

And while it may appear otherwise, tramp is not a Troll. He's not mean spirited, vindictive, or manipulative and he honestly believes what he says is the unadulterated truth, not because he says it but rather he says it because he believes it's the unadulterated truth. He also isn't intentionally provocative just because he enjoys watching the ensuing **** storm, he just has subpar ability to say things diplomatically and his natural mode of communicating is argumentative and authoritarian, i.e. he doesn't consciously TRY to behave offensively. So maybe we can all be less argumentative back at him, and simply require him to provide proof of what he claims or be discounted (that should be a lot less frustrating for all involved).

4 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Please cite a book and page that says lightsaber are exclusively one handed without an extended grip.

You're claiming it's Rules As Written so show us where it's written.

If I may to end this pointless debate and digression from the intent of this thread.

Force and Destiny core rule book, page 217 in the section on two-weapon combat, second paragraph "... one-handed Melee, Brawl, or Lightsaber weapons. If it is unclear whether a weapon can be wielded one-handed, the GM makes the final determination."

It may not be exact wording but it's good enough. Can we move on please?

And page 197 of the core rule book, under the Extended Hilt entry itself:

"The extended hilt modification is also popular among Force users of unusual height or build as a way to capitalize on their size advantage in combat."

This makes it clear that this modification is "popular among Force users of unusual height or build," not nearly ubiquitous among Force users of all kinds. Thus, as common sense dictated to begin with, the typical lightsaber may be held with two hands and the Extended Hilt is an unusual modification, not routinely-used by nearly every Jedi including Obi-Wan.

As the OP, I can certainly say: my original question has been answered. Thanks everyone. Continue at your own discretion, I'm unfollowing my own post.

Guys, the debate about one- or two-handed weapons is RPGish at best, but really useless. Weapons are seldom built to be soley wielded with one or two hands. Think of a spear: one-handed with a shield, two-handed without. ****, I can swing my 2.5 kg Italian two-hander with one hand, if I want to. And I could use my Katana with either one or two hands, when I still was into Japanese sword-arts.

It's all about mass-distribution and therefore balance. The only benefit a two-handed grip provides is leverage - which translates not only into force but also agility. Using the hand far out on the grip accelarates the point really fast.

Having quite a collection of LED-Sabers and fighting a lot with them, I can tell you that RAW do get it right: most hilts are perfectly suitable for one or two hands. To really benefit from a two-handed grip, the hilt has to be considerably longer (the extension attachment makes sense).

Obi-Wans hilt has a weighty pommel, so the point of balance is almost on the emitter - a very fast and agile sword with one or two hands (and one's hands hurt, because it's so **** uncomfortable to grip)-

7 hours ago, Vergence said:

I have a few examples that I wasn't aware of until I recently did research for a character of my mine constructing a lightsaber. Here are two images that mention blade length adjusters and a scene in Star Wars Rebels discussing it.

" There's a control on the side that adjusts the length to your height ".

Good find!

If I had to speculate about the details (let's not kid ourselves, I'd jump at any excuse), it seems to be a knob you turn with some effort (Ezra uses a pinched grip on it) probably so it wouldn't be turned by mistake during combat, but it's quite possible that you could do it intentionally. If not with specifically Kanan's, then with one specifically built for it. It also seems that (at least Kanan's) adjusts the blade in steps, or has some kind of auto-adjust function to fit it to the user's height (not stranger than a lot of other star wars tech), but just because we don't see them fine tune it, it cant be excluded as an option. Of course, in RPG terms, all of this means nothing, but it raises two questions:

1. Does this constitute a dual phase modification? And if so, if it's a common or even standard function of lightsaber, why would anyone used to them be surprised by varying your blade length as feint?

2. How long/short can you make it? Can you make it short enough to rival a shoto? Does this then means that shoto's, as defined by a lightsaber with a shorter blade is non-canonical as a separate weapon? Is a shoto merely defined by a shorter hilt?

9 hours ago, HistoryGuy said:

As for the crystal, I don't know if anyone brought it up yet, but Obi-Wan was a Soresu practitioner which is all about defense, the Lorrdian Gemstone when fully upgraded gives 2 Ranged and Melee defense. Just my 2 cents worth.

That's actually exactly what I did

Cool. I missed that post. I have a couple players who are Soresu Defenders looking for that crystal specifically which made me think of it.

3 hours ago, Sunrider said:

Guys, the debate about one- or two-handed weapons is RPGish at best, but really useless. Weapons are seldom built to be soley wielded with one or two hands. Think of a spear: one-handed with a shield, two-handed without. ****, I can swing my 2.5 kg Italian two-hander with one hand, if I want to. And I could use my Katana with either one or two hands, when I still was into Japanese sword-arts.

My experience with handling swords, katanas in particular, seems, in comparison rather peripheral, so I'm gonna pick your brain a bit on this one. True, we've strayed somewhat from the original purpose of the post, but hey, it's the internet. It happens. I've rejected the OP's topic and substituted my own.
And since he has gracefully bowed out of it, I'm going to assume it's fine to keep exploring this sidetrack.

From my meager experience, I do get the impression that a katana tends to "default" to a two-handed grip, and handling it with a single hand is perfectly serviceable if there's something you need to do with it that requires a one handed grip. The same goes for bastard swords, and to a lesser extent even longswords. However, once again from my limited experience, I've found such swords decidedly less agile in single handed use compared to say a cavalry saber, a side sword or an arming sword, but that might be a matter of practice? Would you say that a katana would be as practical as a saber (or other dedicated single handed sword) in a strictly one-handed fencing style, given enough practice and disregarding the issue of hand protection?

3 hours ago, Sunrider said:

It's all about mass-distribution and therefore balance. The only benefit a two-handed grip provides is leverage - which translates not only into force but also agility. Using the hand far out on the grip accelarates the point really fast.

Interesting. I've gotten the impression that another point of two handed use would be (simplified) to trade reach for control. One of the RPG myths that HEMA has killed for me is two handed swords are for the big and strong, when it seems the opposite is quite to true, as a weaker, untrained person has an easier time handling a longsword with both hands compared to the single handed use of an arming sword in sword and buckler. Another one, equally counter-intuitive, would be that a two-handed cut is inherently more powerful than a single handed one. While a long grip can be used with two hands to impart leverage, a single arm does make for a longer, and more efficient lever than two. Would you agree or disagree?

3 hours ago, Sunrider said:

Having quite a collection of LED-Sabers and fighting a lot with them, I can tell you that RAW do get it right: most hilts are perfectly suitable for one or two hands. To really benefit from a two-handed grip, the hilt has to be considerably longer (the extension attachment makes sense).

Very interesting! Out of curiosity, what kinds of blades do these LED-sabers have? I'm guessing some kind of plastic comparable to a nylon practice sword?

Would you mind elaborating on what you would consider to be benefiting from a two handed grip? The way I read it, and to my understanding of swordsmanship, if there's no benefit to a two handed grip, you're better off going full on Dooku and using it pretty much exclusively in a single-handed saber/rapier style?

3 hours ago, Sunrider said:

Obi-Wans hilt has a weighty pommel, so the point of balance is almost on the emitter - a very fast and agile sword with one or two hands (and one's hands hurt, because it's so **** uncomfortable to grip)-

Wow. That is essentially smallsword balancing. It should be damned quick!

That said, with the wildly varying theories of the "weight" of a lightsaber's blade, estimating the balance of them would be conjecture at best. As it seems the blade has negligible mass, it would be fair to assume they also have negligible weight, but this exchange between Sabine and Kanan seem to contradict this:

" It's heavier than I thought."
"Energy constantly flows through the crystal. You're not fighting with a simple blade as much as you are directing a current of power. "

Which gels with Lucas' original idea from the original trilogy that due to power of the weapons, both hands would be needed to control them at all times, even if he walked this idea back to some degree with the prequels. I've always imagined it somewhat like holding on to a powerful water hose, but maybe that's just me. It's not always consistent either, as Luke doesn't seem to have any trouble with Anakin's single handed, despite never handling one before.

It would've been hilarious if Luke accidentally decapitated C3PO in that scene. Maybe in the extra special super deluxe redux version?

Apparently Old Ben Kenobi isn't overly concerned with safety precautions or, you know, giving Luke the slightest idea that he's about to activate a laser chainsaw on steroids. Oh well, it's not like he blindfolded the kid and told him to play around with it on board a spaceship.

7 hours ago, penpenpen said:

Very interesting! Out of curiosity, what kinds of blades do these LED-sabers have? I'm guessing some kind of plastic comparable to a nylon practice sword?

You'd probably be interested in ultrasabers "the combat lightsaber specialust." From what I've read, they don't make the prettiest or most screen accurate saber hilts, but they are designed to hold up to dueling unlike some fancier more expensive ones. When my son turns 5 years (he'said now 5 months 3 days, 23 hours, and 40 minutes old), I plan to get him an electrum wind (mace windu) lightsaber with a purple blade because he's Samuel L. and I'm totally playing up the Samuel L. Jackson/Mace Windu namesake his entire life. At the same time I'll get myself an archon v 2.1 with a white blade so we can duel. While fairly simple, I think that the Archon v2.1 is the prettiest of the ones that were rated highly in a poll for spinning and dueling and I'm a very practical form follows function type of guy.

There are YouTube videos saying how to get the best looking blade, the standard ultrasabers blade is pretty awesome in terms of appearance except a color gap near the tip, but there's apparently a fairly simple at home mod you can do with sand paper to fix that.