I would not call Nihil’s lightsaber simply a standard saber with an extended hilt attachment. It is a specially built dedicated two-handed lightsaber ( Endless Vigil lightsaber construction table page 87) almost a pole-lightsaber. And no, an extended hilt in and of itself does not require two hands, it simply allows their use and grants additional damage from doing so. This has been stated by the developers on the Order 66 podcast.

Well, Obi-Wan has spent a lot of time on Tattooine, so maybe he has a Krayt Dragon Pearl instead of an Illum Crystal. . .

*hides*

45 minutes ago, ErikModi said:

Well, Obi-Wan has spent a lot of time on Tattooine, so maybe he has a Krayt Dragon Pearl instead of an Illum Crystal. . .

*hides*

Isn't the same one that is in NH as the prequels? Why would he hunt a dragon down?

5 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Isn't the same one that is in NH as the prequels? Why would he hunt a dragon down?

It's the same one he uses in RotS.

I'd say this is an extended, and extending , hilt.

15 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I would not call Nihil’s lightsaber simply a standard saber with an extended hilt attachment. It is a specially built dedicated two-handed lightsaber ( Endless Vigil lightsaber construction table page 87) almost a pole-lightsaber. And no, an extended hilt in and of itself does not require two hands, it simply allows their use and grants additional damage from doing so. This has been stated by the developers on the Order 66 podcast.

While Darth nihl certainly (in my opinion) had a pole lightsaber, this system is a lot more narrative/abstract than you are treating it Tramp. As in there doesn't have to be a game mechanical benefit for everything we see on screen. The "precision lightsaber" hilt (shoto, dagger lightsaber, lightfoil) is the strictly one handed lightsaber. You can use a standard lightsaber hilt with two hands you just don't gain any game mechanical benefit for doing so, although as a gm I would likely put a black die or two on attempts to disarm you.

If I recall the phrasing on the order 66 podcast correctly and I'm not 100% sure I do it was more like "it allows the use of two hands to grant additional damage"

When talking about the double bladed lightsaber with only one end ignited devs appearing on the order 66 podcast said they "might" allow it to be used in one hand so the length of Darth Maul's double bladed lightsaber hilt is on the upper end of what could be considered an extended hilt. But the flavor text for the extended hilt attachment talks about it adding damage by providing additional "leverage" and from a physics perspective (yes I know the absurdity of mixing physics with star wars) you get squat for leverage if your hands are next to each other. For there to be a meaningful "moment arm" (how you get "leverage") your hands would need to have at least a few inches between them. So Obi-Wan's saber, due the presence of the control box which interferes with the grip (you almost have to have a few inches between your hands if you want to hold it in two hands) is on the extreme lower end of what could (in my opinion) be described as an extended hilt.

Basically Obi-Wan's saber could go either way in terms of having/not having an extended hilt in my opinion, so to me it seems foolish and arrogant to definitively claim it is one or the other or that the majority of prequel era jedi had lightsabers with the extended hilt attachment.

18 hours ago, penpenpen said:

I'd say this is an extended, and extending , hilt.

One of my favorite lightsaber fights.

On 12/17/2017 at 2:05 PM, EliasWindrider said:

While Darth nihl certainly (in my opinion) had a pole lightsaber, this system is a lot more narrative/abstract than you are treating it Tramp. As in there doesn't have to be a game mechanical benefit for everything we see on screen. The "precision lightsaber" hilt (shoto, dagger lightsaber, lightfoil) is the strictly one handed lightsaber. You can use a standard lightsaber hilt with two hands you just don't gain any game mechanical benefit for doing so, although as a gm I would likely put a black die or two on attempts to disarm you.

If I recall the phrasing on the order 66 podcast correctly and I'm not 100% sure I do it was more like "it allows the use of two hands to grant additional damage"

When talking about the double bladed lightsaber with only one end ignited devs appearing on the order 66 podcast said they "might" allow it to be used in one hand so the length of Darth Maul's double bladed lightsaber hilt is on the upper end of what could be considered an extended hilt. But the flavor text for the extended hilt attachment talks about it adding damage by providing additional "leverage" and from a physics perspective (yes I know the absurdity of mixing physics with star wars) you get squat for leverage if your hands are next to each other. For there to be a meaningful "moment arm" (how you get "leverage") your hands would need to have at least a few inches between them. So Obi-Wan's saber, due the presence of the control box which interferes with the grip (you almost have to have a few inches between your hands if you want to hold it in two hands) is on the extreme lower end of what could (in my opinion) be described as an extended hilt.

Basically Obi-Wan's saber could go either way in terms of having/not having an extended hilt in my opinion, so to me it seems foolish and arrogant to definitively claim it is one or the other or that the majority of prequel era jedi had lightsabers with the extended hilt attachment.

I disagree. Obi-Wan’s lightsaber hilt falls in at about 30 centimeters. This is about the same as the hilt of a katana , which can easily be gripped with a fair bit of distance between the hands and thus providing plenty of leverage. The same with Luke’s sabers. Ashoka’s sabers, however, had significantly shorter hilts specifically designed for one-handed, and only one-handed , use. Also, by RAW, the basic lightsaber hilt is listed in the book as one-handed only.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. Obi-Wan’s lightsaber hilt falls in at about 30 centimeters. This is about the same as the hilt of a katana , which can easily be gripped with a fair bit of distance between the hands and thus providing plenty of leverage. The same with Luke’s sabers. Ashoka’s sabers, however, had significantly shorter hilts specifically designed for one-handed, and only one-handed , use. Also, by RAW, the basic lightsaber hilt is listed in the book as one-handed only.

So close, yet you manage to get it all wrong again. Ahsoka tends to carry a regular lightsaber and a shoto, which indeed has a shorter hilt. If you'd paid attention, or did some basic checking up before going all bold on us, you would have noticed that her regular lightsaber's hilt is of average length. This goes both for the green-yellow set she uses in the Clone Wars and the white ones she uses in Rebels.

Furthermore, RAW only uses "one-handed" about lightsabers. "Only" is, to no one's surprise by now, your own addition.

I'm going to let you re-iterate this point...

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Ashoka’s sabers, however, had significantly shorter hilts specifically designed for one-handed, and only one-handed , use.

...before posting the inevitable visual rebuttal.

Looks like she could fit a third hand there if she had one.

But, yeah, that is probably just the occasional off-model pic, right?

Or maybe not.

But, you're probably right about the shoto, I mean the rules don't actually say one-handed only , but come on, it's kind of implied since it's not like you could actually fit both hands on one. Grip it in one hand and there'd be literally nothing left to grip with the other hand. The shoto hilt would almost completely disappear in your hand, right?

Well, except when it doesn't.

But it surely would never be practical to use a shoto in a two handed grip. Even if you could, who would ?

OK, I got nothing. I conceed your point to a muppet.

It's kind of funny how you like to use bold to emphasize your points and express your utter conviction that what you're saying is the final word in the matter, yet it doesn't seem like you've even given the most cursory of thoughts to actually look anything about the matter up.

11 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. Obi-Wan’s lightsaber hilt falls in at about 30 centimeters. This is about the same as the hilt of a katana , which can easily be gripped with a fair bit of distance between the hands and thus providing plenty of leverage. The same with Luke’s sabers. Ashoka’s sabers, however, had significantly shorter hilts specifically designed for one-handed, and only one-handed , use. Also, by RAW, the basic lightsaber hilt is listed in the book as one-handed only.

Yeay! i get to teach people about swords!

This is me. That was my sword (i miss it so) It was in total length 110 cm with a 90 cm ish blade leaving around 20 cm ish hilt so basicly about the same as a katana.

Now you're claim is that Obiwan's ligthsaber need to be a two-hande ligthsaber due to the fact that we see him use his ligthsaber in two hands in the movies and due to the length of his hilt, correct?

A katan cant really be used very effectivly with one hand due to the fact that its not designed for that with its curved edge and hilt, it was made for Chops and draw cuts rather than stabing combined with its length. My sword was both heavier and longer than you're average katana but was much better for using in one hand due to its straight edge giving it tons more flexibility in combat, but it would still be less optimal to use it in one hand without a shield but was very possible.

Now going back to obiwans ligthsaber, we have a 30cm long straight hilt with a weigth of most likely under 1 kg ( my sword weigth around 1,5-2kg) due to the simpel fact that you dont need a long steel edge making it even easier to use in one hand for purpouses of doing certian manovers and it can give you reach BUT using it in both hands gives you the possibility of putting more power in to you're strikes and more importatly in youre parrys. So see it more as a bastard sword.

Now a two handed ligthsaber would look more like this.

That is a zwei hander sword. While you could use a katana in one hand thier is no chances in **** you will be abel to effectivly use this in one hand. This is a full on "im going to hit you hard in the face" weapon.

Definitely not shotos.

On 22.12.2017 at 5:14 AM, amuller93 said:

That is a zwei hander sword.

Nope. This is an Iberian Montante (wielded by someone from the ARMA, by the looks of it). A Zwei- or Bidenhänder (German for two-handed sword) has parrying hooks and a ricasso below the cross. The thing is: those are wielded like MGs - against multiple opponents, depending on constant motion, taking a lot of room.

Lightsabers are indeed one-and-a-halfs or Bastard swords. They are not built to be wielded solely with one or two hands, but changing between. While the fight on the Deathstar in IV was choreographed as a fight between an old man and a man whose half machine, and ended up looking like cheap Kendo, the fights in V and VI show some changing of hands on the hilt (and the Prequels even more so).

10 hours ago, Eoen said:

Definitely not shotos.

The one in her left hand (our right) is definitely not a shoto, but I due to the perspective I can't tell about the one in her right hand (our left), I would GUESS it is a shoto. My objection is to the word DEFINITELY combined with the S on shotoS.

39 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

The one in her left hand (our right) is definitely not a shoto, but I due to the perspective I can't tell about the one in her right hand (our left), I would GUESS it is a shoto. My objection is to the word DEFINITELY combined with the S on shotoS.

I looked them from a bunch of angles and I’d say that the small on is a normal Sabre and the other is an extended hilt.

They're clearly different lengths but neither is as small as Yoda’s. (The classic example of a shoto).

It looks looks to me as if Ashoka uses the longer one as her primary weapon possibly even with the intent of using it two handed when necessary.

I’m pretty sure the movies aren’t categorizing the sabres into types. Maybe some visual dictionary does.

I’m not sure she ever used shotos even in the clone wars.

According to the wookiepedia a shoto is defined by a shorter blade length and not the handle length, so under that definition one would be a shoto.

7 hours ago, Sunrider said:

Nope. This is an Iberian Montante (wielded by someone from the ARMA, by the looks of it). A Zwei- or Bidenhänder (German for two-handed sword) has parrying hooks and a ricasso below the cross. The thing is: those are wielded like MGs - against multiple opponents, depending on constant motion, taking a lot of room.

In all fairness i posted that post 5:14 am and just googeled zewihander ligthsaber and took the first imaige i found

19 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I looked them from a bunch of angles and I’d say that the small on is a normal Sabre and the other is an extended hilt.

They're clearly different lengths but neither is as small as Yoda’s. (The classic example of a shoto).

It looks looks to me as if Ashoka uses the longer one as her primary weapon possibly even with the intent of using it two handed when necessary.

I’m pretty sure the movies aren’t categorizing the sabres into types. Maybe some visual dictionary does.

I’m not sure she ever used shotos even in the clone wars.

I don't think that a shoto hilt or extended hilt are as short as you're requiring/allowing them to be. I generally take the listed required number of hands to be minimum requirements. So the fact that she's wielding the lightsaber in one hand strongly suggest that it is not an extended hilt.

5 hours ago, Eoen said:

I’m not sure she ever used shotos even in the clone wars.

According to the wookiepedia a shoto is defined by a shorter blade length and not the handle length, so under that definition one would be a shoto.

I think she might have.

On 2017-12-22 at 3:27 AM, penpenpen said:

Well, one at least.

Might want to consider the xenology for each species gender, age and biology for hand portion to hilt. The shoto wasn’t a shoto for Yoda and most blade lengths are adjustable too.

On 12/21/2017 at 8:14 PM, amuller93 said:

Yeay! i get to teach people about swords!

This is me. That was my sword (i miss it so) It was in total length 110 cm with a 90 cm ish blade leaving around 20 cm ish hilt so basicly about the same as a katana.

Now you're claim is that Obiwan's ligthsaber need to be a two-hande ligthsaber due to the fact that we see him use his ligthsaber in two hands in the movies and due to the length of his hilt, correct?

A katan cant really be used very effectivly with one hand due to the fact that its not designed for that with its curved edge and hilt, it was made for Chops and draw cuts rather than stabing combined with its length. My sword was both heavier and longer than you're average katana but was much better for using in one hand due to its straight edge giving it tons more flexibility in combat, but it would still be less optimal to use it in one hand without a shield but was very possible.

Now going back to obiwans ligthsaber, we have a 30cm long straight hilt with a weigth of most likely under 1 kg ( my sword weigth around 1,5-2kg) due to the simpel fact that you dont need a long steel edge making it even easier to use in one hand for purpouses of doing certian manovers and it can give you reach BUT using it in both hands gives you the possibility of putting more power in to you're strikes and more importatly in youre parrys. So see it more as a bastard sword.

Now a two handed ligthsaber would look more like this.

That is a zwei hander sword. While you could use a katana in one hand thier is no chances in **** you will be abel to effectivly use this in one hand. This is a full on "im going to hit you hard in the face" weapon.

Miyomoto Musashi would not agree with you. A katana can be used quite well 1 handed.

4 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I don't think that a shoto hilt or extended hilt are as short as you're requiring/allowing them to be. I generally take the listed required number of hands to be minimum requirements. So the fact that she's wielding the lightsaber in one hand strongly suggest that it is not an extended hilt.

Maybe, but look at her main hand it could take the grip of a four handed alien no problem. While her shoto is as large as a normal handle.

12 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Maybe, but look at her main hand it could take the grip of a four handed alien no problem. While her shoto is as large as a normal handle.

I think your expectation is off on what a normal hilt length is. I can fit 4 hands on a katana hilt of a bastard sword hilt. That does not make it an extended hilt. Where as a swiehander can fit like 6 or 7 hands on it.

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I think your expectation is off on what a normal hilt length is. I can fit 4 hands on a katana hilt of a bastard sword hilt. That does not make it an extended hilt. Where as a swiehander can fit like 6 or 7 hands on it.

A ziehander is a two handed weapon wielded like a polearm. The grip is wide often 3 or 4 hands apart. Isn’t an extended hilt mod supposed modify a regular lightsaber handle and not a saber pike’s which already is longer than an extended handle?

Her weapon handle is longer than most Katana handles I’ve seen more like a No-dachi’s handle.

While her shoto handle is as long as Luke’s lightsaber handle.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Miyomoto Musashi would not agree with you. A katana can be used quite well 1 handed.

Is the exception not the rule. Katanas are made for use in both hands

1 hour ago, Eoen said:

A ziehander is a two handed weapon wielded like a polearm. The grip is wide often 3 or 4 hands apart. Isn’t an extended hilt mod supposed modify a regular lightsaber handle and not a saber pike’s which already is longer than an extended handle?

Her weapon handle is longer than most Katana handles I’ve seen more like a No-dachi’s handle.

While her shoto handle is as long as Luke’s lightsaber handle.

No her hand is not. It is the standard length. One should consider she is not a super big person.

1 hour ago, amuller93 said:

Is the exception not the rule. Katanas are made for use in both hands

No it really isnt. Iaijutsu is all about drawing and using the katana in one handed strikes.

To put it another way. I have a broadsword made by a master bladesmith and a katana made by the same master blade smith. The katana is of similar weight. The broadsword is wielded 1 handed. The katana is just as easily wielded 1 handed.