Some of the problems with the movie for me:

"Yo momma"-insolent joke by poe. (Srsly? Yo momma jokes in Star wars?)

Forced jokes in almost every scene, and I mean stuff like "bb8 cant maneuver under a box" (but is fine at the controls of an AT-ST), Finn keeps tripping and stuff like that

Adding "Poor Oliver Twist Force Kids" and cute Animals into a lot of shots (thanks, Disney :-( )

A super boring chase scene between capitals.

- Srsly, why didn't the rebels spread out? The capital ship can be chased, all the while the others run off in a perpendicular angle. Is that too difficult as a strategy?

- Why didn't some star destroyers perform a micro-jump into THE STRAIGHT DIRECTION of the flagship?

Kylo-Rey romance (blargh!)

Leia Space Walk

The rebel comanders all not looking the part (nothing agains women as military leaders, don't get me wrong, but why does an admiral have to look like an opera singer with purple hair and her right hand so cowardish all the time?)

Hux is just... a Hitler parody by now?

Luke even considering striking down kylo in his sleep is totally out of character to me.

The rey mirror scene with the odd voiceover.

Yoda... playing wise nut dumbledore for harry ... i mean luke.

Phasma was a letdown again. She should easily best finn and a mechanic by herself. She is discribed as a ferocious fighter...

Rose was too much of a whiny do-goodie to me.

The rebels being saved by sparklefoxies.

The nun thingies on the island... setup for cheap "oops I let it fall" jokes

Finn who knows where the comm unit is because he cleaned there (what kind of a lame running gag is that?)

Maz taking a phone call in the middle of a fire fight which is casually dismissed as a "union dispute"

... I could go on.

34 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

We aren't going anywhere here, but let me ask one last time.
I know her plan was to evacuate the ship to the planet with the transports. I understood that perfectly.
Still, that isn't really a good plan, because they were immediately detected by the FO and they started firing at the transports.

I'll stop you there, because that's wrong and specifically contradicted in dialog from the film.

The transports were cloaked from the FO's sensors - they had no idea they were out there. It was only once the 'hacker' told the FO about the means to defeat that kind of cloaking that they re-scanned and found the Rebel fleet.

But obviously Holdo had no idea that was going to happen - indeed, if Poe had followed orders, it wouldn't have happened, and the plan would have worked fine. The entire Resistance would be safely on Crait while the empty Raddus does a final jump to lure the First Order away.

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

In a book iirc. Why does that not count? Clearly that‘s such an obscure question that is completely irrelevant to most viewers that it has no place in the movie?

Because we didn't read the book, movies can not ever rely on you reading up on things later to make sense.

If the film does not show you something then it doesn't exist as far as the audience is concerned, pretty well known principal of film making.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I also do not understand. There are enough problems with the movie. Snoke, Spacewalk, Timeframe, and many more.

Weaponized flagships or misunderstood plans are not in the same category

Or the fact that not a single character was reconizable based on past movies and if not for the names and the title you could easily think that it was a completely unrelated movie that just so happened to feature the same actors.

Just to put a break on the negativity, why don’t we post bits we enjoyed for a bit? The First Order laundry... luke to Rey “oooo, you’re soooo powerful” almost made me fall off my chair. The Falcon coming to the rescue during the land battle...

Its not a BAD film, but I think a lot of us want to explain why we didn’t enjoy the bad bits so much that it’s crushing the good feels that we had.

1 minute ago, Estarriol said:

Just to put a break on the negativity, why don’t we post bits we enjoyed for a bit?

'Oh, yeah, they hate that ship'

(You may rest assured I'm going to be using that line A LOT when playing X-Wing against someone flying a Falcon...)

On the surface, the ramming maneuver was spectacular and awesome. It made for a great effect. But once you think about it, as Azrapse has explained very well, it should not be possible. If it were, then ramming a single-purpose ship with high mass and no crew at lightspeed into epic-sized ships would be a viable, high-profit tactical maneuver. I'm sorry, but that point stands.

I wasn't bothered too much by it in the movie. There actually were lots of more glaring flaws than that which spoiled the movie for me.

3 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Just to put a break on the negativity, why don’t we post bits we enjoyed for a bit? The First Order laundry... luke to Rey “oooo, you’re soooo powerful” almost made me fall off my chair. The Falcon coming to the rescue during the land battle...

Its not a BAD film, but I think a lot of us want to explain why we didn’t enjoy the bad bits so much that it’s crushing the good feels that we had.

I liked rose...that's it though.

3 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

The problems with the movie for me:

"Yo momma"-insolent joke by poe. (Srsly? Yo momma jokes in Star wars?)

Forced jokes in almost every scene, and I mean stuff like "bb8 cant maneuver under a box" (but is fine at the controls of an AT-ST), Finn keeps tripping and stuff like that

Adding "Poor Oliver Twist Force Kids" and cute Animals into a lot of shots (thanks, Disney :-( )

A super boring chase scene between capitals.

- Srsly, why didn't the rebels spread out? The capital ship can be chased, all the while the others run off in a perpendicular angle. Is that too difficult as a strategy?

- Why didn't some star destroyers perform a micro-jump into THE STRAIGHT DIRECTION of the flagship?

Kylo-Rey romance (blargh!)

I agree with most of this but I don't think you can fairly blame Disney for that considering they also put out R1 and have largely given Lucasfilm a control over these. Johnson and K. Kennedy and whoever wrote that script can fight over who is most responsible for this train wreck but they all share some blame.

8 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Just to put a break on the negativity, why don’t we post bits we enjoyed for a bit? The First Order laundry... luke to Rey “oooo, you’re soooo powerful” almost made me fall off my chair. The Falcon coming to the rescue during the land battle...

Its not a BAD film, but I think a lot of us want to explain why we didn’t enjoy the bad bits so much that it’s crushing the good feels that we had.

I'm being completely honest now. At the end, there were no good feels left in me. When the credits started rolling, I got up and left, which I have never done before after seeing a Star Wars movie (and I saw the prequels as an adult, not as a kiddie who was flashed by all the effects). Leaving the theater, I remembered how excited, how happy I had been when the opening crawl had appeared two and a half hours earlier. I wanted to cry, because I was utterly devastated and heartbroken. So maybe that's why I can't really appreciate yet that this movie in fact had bits that were good, even great.

10 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Because we didn't read the book, movies can not ever rely on you reading up on things later to make sense.

If the film does not show you something then it doesn't exist as far as the audience is concerned, pretty well known principal of film making.

The degree of automation of the Raddus is pretty irrelevant?

I‘m more amazed that there IS an answer

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The degree of automation of the Raddus is pretty irrelevant?

I‘m more amazed that there IS an answer

Well, if the movie shows us that it is in fact possible to control a MonCal cruiser alone, then that should be enough confirmation that it is in fact possible. So no argument here.

46 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But they were not immediately detected by the FO. They were betrayed by DelToro who informed the FO because the FO did not realize it.

And after that they had no trouble seeing them? I'm confused..

I dug up this account just to see the community’s reaction and it was well worth it. Unfortunately, X-Wing is pretty much unrecognizable to me and I’m probably sticking to modified games of Epic.

Anyway. When the Resistance soldier dabs his fingers on Crait’s surface and says, “It’s salt.”

Pretty much sums up all the reactions I’ve bothered to read in this thread.

I absolutely loved the movie. Great way to make up for the smoldering garbage fire of a film that Rogue One was.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The degree of automation of the Raddus is pretty irrelevant?

I‘m more amazed that there IS an answer

It isn't but that wasn't the question.

Its like alien covenant I had no clue about the stuff they'd put on YouTube so when I went to see the movie I had no clue who the crew were and as a result felt nothing as they were picked off because the film didn't give them any character.

3 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

I liked rose...that's it though.

Yeah she was good, as were a number of the TFA returning characters when they weren't being railroaded by the terrible plot or forced to hold the idiot ball.

7 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Just to put a break on the negativity, why don’t we post bits we enjoyed for a bit? The First Order laundry... luke to Rey “oooo, you’re soooo powerful” almost made me fall off my chair. The Falcon coming to the rescue during the land battle...

Its not a BAD film, but I think a lot of us want to explain why we didn’t enjoy the bad bits so much that it’s crushing the good feels that we had.

... I just gotta disagree with this, it was a genuinely bad movie both in the context of being Star Wars and just general entertainment value as a movie.

4 minutes ago, debiler said:

I'm being completely honest now. At the end, there were no good feels left in me. When the credits started rolling, I got up and left, which I have never done before after seeing a Star Wars movie (and I saw the prequels as an adult, not as a kiddie who was flashed by all the effects). Leaving the theater, I remembered how excited, how happy I had been when the opening crawl had appeared two and a half hours earlier. I wanted to cry, because I was utterly devastated and heartbroken. So maybe that's why I can't really appreciate yet that this movie in fact had bits that were good, even great.

Honestly this. Like no Star Wars movie or show has ever left me with such an overwhelmingly negative impression and the fact that this is presently the ultimate culmination of everything in the Star Wars timeline just makes me bitter and depressed.

5 minutes ago, SpikeSpiegel said:

I dug up this account just to see the community’s reaction and it was well worth it. Unfortunately, X-Wing is pretty much unrecognizable to me and I’m probably sticking to modified games of Epic.

Anyway. When the Resistance soldier dabs his fingers on Crait’s surface and says, “It’s salt.”

Pretty much sums sums up all the reactions I’ve bothered to read in this thread.

I absolutely loved the movie. Great way to make up for the smoldering garbage fire of a film that Rogue One was.

No salt here. No unreflected hatred either, because that's not what I do. No unmet expectations, because I had none. Just disbelief, sadness and disappointment. To everybody who might care: if you liked the movie, I'm happy for you. But can you be a bit sad for me, too? We're all fans, here.

double post, sorry

20 minutes ago, xulfus said:

And after that they had no trouble seeing them? I'm confused..

They masked their signal, as was explicitly said in the movie. But apparently that is not the same as complete cloaking, which makes sense as we know cloaking exists and is way harder to do. So masking the signal works preemptively but not once you're detected.

19 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

It isn't but that wasn't the question.

Its like alien covenant I had no clue about the stuff they'd put on YouTube so when I went to see the movie I had no clue who the crew were and as a result felt nothing as they were picked off because the film didn't give them any character.

That was specifically criticized by @jocke01, I quote: " Wait when did they say raddus ess more automated? Before the movie as in TFA or in a Book. IF it's not in the movie then it doesn't count ffs "

It WAS the question.

But these few exchanges are telling me that it's time for me to abandon thread. The criticism has reached huge irrationality, ignoring the movie and the lore around. There's very clearly no point in discussing misconceptions if you guys are so resistant as to why the reasons you dislike the movie are not entirely correct. Opinions are fine, and I would never argue about those. But misunderstanding the movie, misrepresenting the lore and then insisting and touting out that false conception is something I really dislike. But I concede, this is too much for me.

(edit: if you really are interested, we can discuss per PM. But I won't write in this thread anymore)

I'm just going to say it. Every single one of the Prequals was objectively a ten times better Star Wars movie then this was.

People love to **** on them but though they had some serious flaws they weren't bad movies and were entertaining. This was not.

Just now, debiler said:

No salt here. No unreflected hatred either, because that's not what I do. No disappointment due to unmet expectations, because I had none. Just disbelief, sadness and disappointment. To everybody who might care: if you liked the movie, I'm happy for you. But can you be a bit sad for me, too? We're all fans, here.

Star Wars was already ruined when JJ broke any implied rules of logic when he made hyperspace-ing through a planetary shield a thing. At that point, I figured nothing else would be that ridiculous in Disney’s Star Wars, even the “Leia in space” scene. I went into TLJ with an open mind and some skepticism after Rogue One left a sour, waxy taste in my mouth. I was definitely not disappointed and will probably watch it 3 or 4 more times in theatres.

3 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

I'm just going to say it. Every single one of the Prequals was objectively a ten times better Star Wars movie then this was.

Can't agree at all I hate the prequels with every atom of my being, tlj isn't worth hating only forgetting.

Really enjoyed it apart from the majority of the casino section.

Luke got a great send off which I was really pleased with.

I....enjoyed it. It was a worthwhile use of the time to watch it. Did I enjoy it as much as I hoped I would? No. I enjoyed it less than The Force Awakens and much less than Rogue One.

Loved

Visually, it was amazing.

The acting was also amazing - especially notable for (sadly) Carrie Fisher as a very impressive last appearance and Adam Driver, who had far more stage presence than in the Force Awakens.

Some of the one-liners and sequences were perfect. "They hate that ship" was awesome, and Luke's slightly deranged moments (can you feel the force) are no less or more silly than Yoda's hazing of him when they first met.

Rose was brilliant, and BB-8 continues to be awesome (especially seeing the 'combat repair' in action). BB-9E was equally great in the cameo he was in, and I find myself wanting to see some sort of face-off between these two later on. As an aside, the fact that you actually see the first order using astromech droids is a good thing because that cameo is also retroactive and future justification for any occasion the plot of a book, game or film a knee-high astromech compatible data socket in a first order ship or facility. By comparison, R2 was forever finding sockets the empire had seemingly fitted just for him to hack them with, and in rebels I swear that if there's more than three times you see an "imperial astromech" that's not C1-10P in a coat of grey paint, it'd surprise me.

The problem was, I have trouble turning off that bit of me that keeps wanting to poke the plot-holes (always a bad sign), and this was a bit of a plot-cheesecloth.

Don't mind

• A lot of the plot-holes are poor life choices by the characters, which in a lot of cases can be disregarded under the overarching clause that General Hux would be considered comedically, retardley inept by bloody Dastardly and Muttley, and almost any poor choice by the first order forces can be considered a result of this.
  • Distracting the enemy with dialogue that feels like it escaped from an adam sandler sitcom and "yo mama" jokes seems like a stupid idea, but hey, it's Hux. If it works, go with it.
  • Not launching fighters - even if you don't actively send them to engage - is moronic. But then the stupidity of that is actively commented on by the dreadnought captain, so fair enough.
  • The dreadnought's big gun is clearly capable of engaging spacecraft - we don't know this for definite until after it bombs the resistance base and is retargeted, but it is and therefore can. In which case, why not shoot the lightspeed capable cruiser the enemy are trying to evacuate in first and then ortillery the base at your leisure once they're trapped and have nowhere to go.
  • "Ren, get back here, we can't support you at that range!" - I'm sorry, what?
    • Were Ben Solo and his wingmen Cindy-Lou-Anne and Vladimir the only fighter pilots in this massive First Order armada who were on-shift at the time?
    • Is it a union working hours thing? Because you ambushed them so it's not like you couldn't have been ready.
    • I get just sending your best on the high-speed initial pass to take out the hangar bay before they can scramble - that was risky but smart, sound tactics - but having achieved complete superiority, maybe launching some of the floberty-bajillion TIE fighters we see a destroyer's hangar holds in the Force Awakens might have been a good idea?
    • Especially since they actually do get deployed in the final ground battle scene (and remember that the swarm of TIEs we see sent to engage the speeders and subsequently the falcon can only have been the ones surviving from the crippled Supremacy since this is after the fleet gets turned to shredded metal by the hyperspace ram thing.
• Some of the good guys, however are being equally daft, but again, this is "poor life choices" and not a plot-hole per se.
  • The bombers flying in formation where they can protect one another is one thing.
  • Flying in close enough formation where destruction of one ship fratricides 75% of the formation is idiotic, especially when it's not like they needed a concentrated bombing run to achieve success because a single bomber's payload is lethal.
  • Vice Admiral Hondo/Hodor/whatever her name is.
    • Not her plan. Her plan - detach the small craft and draw the first order off - was not a bad one by any stretch of the imagination. It trades the Raddus and the support ships for letting the content of the transports get away.
    • The flaw was essentially telling Poe "shut up, trust me, and get back in your box" without even implying there was a plan beyond "we're going to keep running until we run out of fuel at which point we will die". This is bad-people management given the audience in question
      • The point is, that Poe is hot-headed, creative, and given to breaking rules. Holdo knows this because that's exactly why he's just been demoted and if he thinks the resistance is in a no-win situation he will do something about it. This cannot be an uncommon problem to deal with as a resistance/rebel officer given that hot-heads committing to dangerous, zany one-in-a-million crazy schemes masquerading as battle plans have been the rebellion/resistance's stock in trade since bloody Lothal.
      • It's a link in the chain of events:
        • Holdo doesn't tell Poe there is a decent plan.
        • Poe therefore assumes there isn't a plan and comes up with one.
        • Poe sends Finn and Rose off on the Macguffin Quest II: The Technobabbling
        • This leads to cut-price Lando Calrissian saying "you realise they're sneaking off in transports over that way"
        • This leads to Space-Nazi Ron Weasley having a rare moment of tolerable competence and saying "bloody heck! he's right! we should probably shoot at them!"
      • The point here is that given what she has told Poe at this point, Poes actions are pretty predictable from his personality (documented and known) and the standard M.O of most rebel special ops types. Not assuming he would do something stupid was, in turn, pretty stupid.
• the new force power stuff.
  • Astrotelepathy is a new one. But I guess that's what you see Yoda do in Rebels, so it's got heritage.
  • Luke projecting is an interesting surprise, but I felt the 'handing the falcon's dice over' kind of cheapened it. It's rather more impressive when you think it must have been a projection to the entire first order army, not just kylo.
  • Space Jesus Leia was a bit...weird. Awesome, but weird. She is a skywalker, so it's nice to see her force powers get a nod at last.

Dislike

• Sci-fi doesn't have to be consistent with real physics, but it helps. It does have to be consistent with its own physics.
  • People will no doubt dissect the 'hyperspace ram' to the nth degree.
  • I really didn't like it on the grounds that this is the sort of thing that I can't see not being a known 'effect'. This is not something Holdo is appearing to figure out on the fly.
  • If near-C rams are an option, then this is the sort of thing that across the thousand-year spacefaring history of the star wars universe would be used. Look on any Traveller RPG forum for "near-C rocks" for similar arguments. This is not a universe where hyperspace drives are expensive ("we could almost buy our own ship for that") nor where automated vessels are a difficult concept (battle droids?)
  • Given the amount of devastation inflicted, that is logically justifiable expenditure of attrition assets, because if the Raddus can do that to the Supremacy, a CR-90 or smaller ship could have done that to an Imperial-class.
• At the same time, there's inconsistent physics and there's inconsistent logic.
  • The resistance ships are either faster or slower or the same speed
    • If they're Faster, then they should be able to pull out of shooting range
    • If they're slower, the first order should be closing and be able to reach effective gun range and destroy them
    • It seems somewhat ridiculous that they have exactly the same effective speed.
  • The first order can track you through hyperspace
    • This is apparently a new thing such that it's believed to be impossible. But, inventions happen all the time.
    • Rose and Finn progressing from 'this is impossible' to 'we know physically where on the ship it will be and how to disable it" in the space of a couple of minutes of brainstorming is garbage but no more or less ridiculous than physics, chemical or medical reverse engineering is usually shown to be in sci-fi settings.
    • The idea that 'only one ship will be using it' draws up a point that doesn't make a lot of sense: Why was the supremacy doing the tracking?
      • It wasn't at D'Qar.
        • So if it's tracked the fleet, you don't need to be there when you jump out to track you.
        • If you don't need to be there when you jump out, then Poe's plan of "blind them then jump out" has a massive logical fallacy
        • What kind of stupid policy has only a single ship use its sensors in an active, weapons-hot battlefield with an enemy known for running and hiding?
        • If tracking from the Supremacy, why does Hux need to tell Snoke about it.
        • For that matter, why does the explanation apparently wait until Hux is in the throne room in person, because if Hux tracked them from one of the D'Qar ships, when does he tell the Supremacy where to meet them?
        • When/why does he transfer from the destroyer to the Supremacy, anyway?
      • Why does it turn up? If Hux and Kylo are that bothered about seeing the resistance killed off, you would have expected to see the ship in the D'Qar assault group. If they aren't, why do they turn up later? It's not like Hux's destroyer group needs the extra firepower to take the Raddus in a fair fight.
• I really dislike films or series that introduce a character we're supposed to give a monkey's about and then kill them off in their first sequence or even first scene appearance.
  • Fine doing this once, but between snoke, the bomber crews, the A-wing pilots, Holdo, it felt like the film was full of this to the point of irritation.

48 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I'll stop you there, because that's wrong and specifically contradicted in dialog from the film.

The transports were cloaked from the FO's sensors - they had no idea they were out there. It was only once the 'hacker' told the FO about the means to defeat that kind of cloaking that they re-scanned and found the Rebel fleet.

But obviously Holdo had no idea that was going to happen - indeed, if Poe had followed orders, it wouldn't have happened, and the plan would have worked fine. The entire Resistance would be safely on Crait while the empty Raddus does a final jump to lure the First Order away.

I put up with all the hate in this thread just to see if anybody else caught that the transports were cloaked. Great job! Glad I'm not the only one who heard that.

And now I will walk away and never look at this horrid thread again. The movie was great guys. If you hated it, or even if you loved it, put the keyboard down and go fly some plastic spaceships. Pew! Pew!