@Canopus Your post articulated a lot of my own thoughts about TLJ, and your explanation of Star Wars as modern mythology filled in some gaps in my own thinking.

Modern mythology is exactly the reason TLJ is so divisive with the fanbase. Mythology is an important aspect of cultural identity. Even small variations in mythology can be divisive for a culture. For some people, TLJ violates their perceptions of the mythology, and this threatens their cultural identity as a fan. For other people, TLJ is a natural expansion of the mythology, or a welcome alteration, and they feel gratified rather than threatened. These differences are factionalizing the fanbase.

For Star Wars fans this has happened before. The scale and stakes are more severe this time because the dispute is over a new saga film. Forums like this one are battlegrounds of sectarian violence, with extremists trying to shout loud enough to be the only side anyone can hear or agree with.

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threatens their cultural identity as a fan

That I think is a problem in of itself. It's a film. That's it, a two and a bit hour long piece of entertainment. A lot of work went into it and both its content and the process of making it make for interesting discussion but it's still in the grand scheme of things just a film.

The rising tide of disproportionate emotional reactions to differing views on ultimately inconsequential things is deeply worrying to me.

8 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

That I think is a problem in of itself. It's a film. That's it, a two and a bit hour long piece of entertainment. A lot of work went into it and both its content and the process of making it make for interesting discussion but it's still in the grand scheme of things just a film.

The rising tide of disproportionate emotional reactions to differing views on ultimately inconsequential things is deeply worrying to me.

Your worry over this conflict is not unwarranted because myths are never inconsequential. Yes, Star Wars originated as fictional entertainment, but unlike most fiction, Star Wars evolved into a myth valued by modern culture. Myths are important to people regardless of their origin. By saying the myth is inconseqential, you’re dismissing the values of other people.

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Yes, Star Wars originated as fictional entertainment, but unlike most fiction, Star Wars evolved into a myth valued by modern culture. Myths are important to people regardless of their origin. By saying the myth is inconseqential, you’re dismissing the values of other people.

I'm having a little trouble understanding this viewpoint. Could you go into more detail?

Despite what the haters may try they will fail. This is the direction Star Wars is going now.

The film is going to make more then Rogue One, that's inevitable. So financially the film is a success.

I for one enjoy the direction of the franchise. And based on how much everyone of my friend's kids love it, then the Last Jedi is cemented forever in canon.

So the haters either should learn to love the movie or live in perpetual misery. The incessant moaning is nothing but shouting against the wind. Believe me I was on the anti Rebels train for a few years, it does nothing but rile people against you, even those on the fence.

25 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

I'm having a little trouble understanding this viewpoint. Could you go into more detail?

It’s anthroplogy. The origin of the myth is rarely as important as its effects on the people who value it. Not every myth is valuable to every person, but a story becomes a myth when people value it. The story doesn’t have to be true to be valuable. That value is the reason people fight over myths, and it’s the reason apathetically dismissing a myth as inconsequential is culturally insensitive.

I'm still not getting it.

8 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I've seen people disagree on that as well, but I think they don't see that a great score usually needs some revisiting to be recognized. I'm not quite as enthusiastic about this one as about TFAs soundtrack, but mostly because it is pretty derivative of those themes. It still accomplishes a lot. Kylos motive has evolved into a great theme. The Canto Bight casino track is great and fresh.

I love the TFA soundtrack as well, but I can see why it wasn't too well received, there wasn't any stand out new leitmotiffs, I guess. Even though I loved Rey's theme and the Fanfare of the Resistance. Both used to greater effect in TLJ.

8 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

I've seen people disagree on that as well, but I think they don't see that a great score usually needs some revisiting to be recognized. I'm not quite as enthusiastic about this one as about TFAs soundtrack, but mostly because it is pretty derivative of those themes. It still accomplishes a lot. Kylos motive has evolved into a great theme. The Canto Bight casino track is great and fresh.

I love the TFA soundtrack as well, but I can see why it wasn't too well received, there wasn't any stand out new leitmotiffs, I guess. Even though I loved Rey's theme and the Fanfare of the Resistance. Both used to greater effect in TLJ.

1 hour ago, Forresto said:

Despite what the haters may try...

So the haters either should...

43 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

I love the TFA soundtrack as well, but I can see why it wasn't too well received, there wasn't any stand out new leitmotiffs, I guess. Even though I loved Rey's theme and the Fanfare of the Resistance. Both used to greater effect in TLJ.

No stand out leitmotifs? What about Kylo Ren's? It's everywhere in both films.

It's even in the trailers.

59 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

In which way? Because that meme is easily misused to deflect an arguement.

4 hours ago, Firespray-32 said:

I'm still not getting it.

What he means is that by now star wars is modern mythology.

Think of homer's odyssee and the tale of hercules. It stood the test of time, but after all huge parts of it are just fiction. Nowadays, people still know those myths - gorgons, hydras etc... all of that are established mythical creatures

What he implies is that perhaps 200 yrs from now, people will think in the same way of the star wars universe.

Hence, making a rubbish film in this oh-so important franchise may have larger impact on the bigger picture. And disrespecting the myth is a bit in the i-disrespect-your-belief territory.

I hope that IS his viewpoint, otherwise I dont get it either and just made a fool out of myself. ?

14 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

What he means is that by now star wars is modern mythology.

Think of homer's odyssee and the tale of hercules. It stood the test of time, but after all huge parts of it are just fiction. Nowadays, people still know those myths - gorgons, hydras etc... all of that are established mythical creatures

What he implies is that perhaps 200 yrs from now, people will think in the same way of the star wars universe.

Hence, making a rubbish film in this oh-so important franchise may have larger impact on the bigger picture. And disrespecting the myth is a bit in the i-disrespect-your-belief territory.

I hope that IS his viewpoint, otherwise I dont get it either and just made a fool out of myself. ?

That sounds about right. Another way to think of it is that Star Wars is basically a religion at this point. The biggest problem with that is that it's a relatively new religion, so there's going to be some infighting about what's allowed and what's sacreleige. Some people, such as me and my friends, thought that the newest movie fit nicely into our views of this "religion". Other people find it "heresy". That's why there's Coptic, Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Christians, and for that matter multiple sects of most world religions, because people tend to disagree much more vehemently when new stuff is added to their religion than when new stuff is added to something that's just another fandom.

I like your thinking next time I visit the temple I'll propose we make anyone who likes the Disney verse heretics, hmm I'll have to start a programme to teach inquisitors.

It's times like this that I remember what "fan" is an abbreviation of.

Yup, reading through it again I now see how sacreligious that sounds...

Hopefully all of you know by now that most of posts are tongue in cheek and I do not, I repeat do not, have a small shrine set up to Luke Skywalker in the middle of my house, surrounded by candles... he definitely got replaced by Rey after I saw TLJ for the third time.

Here's my take on the starship chase. Yes, it was a plot device to give a sense of urgency to the mission, but why was it like that within the confines of the story.

I once had the fortune/misfortune of working in a detainee facility that housed one of Saddam Hussein's chief torturers. Think of an Arabic and extremely pissed off Peter Dinklage with the mind of Ramsey Bolton. In any case, if there was anything of his philosophy that I learned from that experience it was 'if you're going to bother feeding a person through a mulching machine, you might as well do it feet first so you get the most out of it'. Yeah, I'm putting a bullet through my head if I ever get captured by a nation with a dude like that interrogating people.

In any case, bad guys like to tease their opponents with their impending deaths when both parties know that the good guy is cornered. You had nobody other than the Supreme Leader himself overseeing what was the end of the Resistance. They didn't have enough fuel to make multiple hyperspace jumps, they would be tracked if they did jump, and they could only go so far even at sublight. At that point, why go through the trouble of making microjumps to cut them off, launching large masses of fighters, or any other tactics? Let the old man get his cackles watching the Resistance try to get away. Make the Resistance crews watch as each of their ships drops off and gets pulverized by turbolaser fire. Keep pelting their shields with said turbolaser fire so that they are constantly reminded of what will soon happen to them. It's just the thing to make people try to jump ship or go on adventures to casino planets.

I've heard comments on why the Resistance didn't speed up to try to outrun the armada or split up to force the other ships to split up. Well, while the FO officer did make mention of the Resistance ships being faster, that doesn't mean that they WANT to go faster. A basic rule of the universe is that the more energy you put into something, the less output you'll get in response. It could be due to entropy or even dilation as you approach the speed of light, but putting the fleet at full speed would only shorten the time until they ran out of fuel. Splitting up would have done nothing. There were many more warships in the FO fleet than the Resistance so each frigate likely would have gotten 2 Star Destroyers after it and the cruiser would still have the Supremacy and any remaining ships. At that point, you can no longer save the crew of each ship when they're about to run out of fuel and everybody on them dies.

And finally, as a potential alternative for the reason the FO had so few fighters to send against the fleet and the Falcon. Remember that they just had a rather MASSIVE operation to take over the entire galaxy. They likely brought enough fighters to ward off the handful of Resistance fighters that they expected to encounter and sent the bulk of their forces out to help mop up New Republic forces. Otherwise their warships would be more than a match for anything the Resistance might have orbiting their base.

So just chalk it up to ol' Huxy wanting his moment of glory where he was one step ahead of Kylo and the Supreme Leader and cornered the Resistance fleet. Nobody could have foreseen operation 'little old lady for Pasadena', so he can be forgiven for not wiping them out in a hurry. In cinematic terms however, you don't have a drawn out chase in space with two ships just shooting at each other. Nicholas Myer was espousing that back in the 80's with The Wrath of Khan which was the reason the Mutara Nebula was created. Of course Stuart Baird and apparently Rian Johnson weren't taking notes.

16 hours ago, Forresto said:

Despite what the haters may try they will fail. This is the direction Star Wars is going now.

The film is going to make more then Rogue One, that's inevitable. So financially the film is a success.

I for one enjoy the direction of the franchise. And based on how much everyone of my friend's kids love it, then the Last Jedi is cemented forever in canon.

So the haters either should learn to love the movie or live in perpetual misery. The incessant moaning is nothing but shouting against the wind. Believe me I was on the anti Rebels train for a few years, it does nothing but rile people against you, even those on the fence.

It's so easy to call people who didn't like TLJ 'haters', isn't it? That way you don't have to try to understand or see reason to their arguments. I don't go around calling people fanboys, so why do you feel the urge?

I can see why people who give the film 1/10 and call it 'worst movie evaaah' would bother you. They bother me, too. But to tell me to either love the movie or shut up - it hurts more than you'd think. Because I wanted nothing more than to walk out of the theater with that special feeling, that drive to desperately wanting to see the next one. Instead, I felt empty and angry. Because whenever there was a great scene or agreat new concept, Rian Johnson somehow managed to undo it by tacking on an out of place joke. I'm all for quips and comedy, because that's also an integral part of Star Wars. But there's a very thin line between corny and dumb, and they overstepped it countless times in this. Also, I'm totally fine with all the story decisions they made. I was surprised, yes. But I didn't go into TLJ with any expectations on how the story would unfold. So the main argument of 'it didn't go the way you wanted, so now you complain about it' doesn't cut it. At least not for me.

To finish this - if you liked the movie, I'm happy for you. I truly am. I can see what people liked about it. But please try to understand that there are many people out there who were just vastly disappointed not just for the heck of it, but because they felt indifferent about it. Which is even worse. It's not a bad movie. But it could have been so much more. The pieces were all there, they just arranged them in a clunky, unfitting way.

They don't really like the movie as much as they think they should and the presence of people saying it was average or bad is giving credence to that little voice in the back of their minds.

Same thing happened with the prequels, same thing happened with TFA when everyone denied it was a remake.

Denial is a long river but eventually you come to the end and your able to lift the veil of fandom and honestly look at the film and see it's flaws.

5 hours ago, debiler said:

It's so easy to call people who didn't like TLJ 'haters', isn't it? That way you don't have to try to understand or see reason to their arguments. I don't go around calling people fanboys, so why do you feel the urge?

Indeed. It's a pretty pathetic and childish cop-out from people who feel threatened by others expressing valid criticism and concerns, nothing more than that.

This lady right here sums that unhelpful, negative attitude up quite well in her review:

Best review yet (because who doesn't appreciate a foul-mouthed puppet)

It's an older video but it still checks out.

There's... too many of them!

16 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

There's... too many of them!

Wow man you really love to hate on this movie. Maybe you need to get over it.