1 hour ago, Cartchan said:

I watched TLJ a second time.

First time, I had mixed feelings. I mostly liked it but some things were bothering me (Canto Bright arc, timing, plot holes). After the second vision, a lot of these concerns were eased. Once you know the actual motivation of the characters, their actions have much more logic (Luke throwing the lightsaber, Yoda burning the tree, Holdo's disdain for Poe, Kylo's...). Also the Canto Bright arc does not have that much of screen time and serves the Finn character development.

One of the criticism for TLJ in the first pages of this thread was that the FO conquered the Core Worlds in a matters of hours ordays between TFA and TLJ. I don't know if this complain was already invalidated but the scrolling text only states that the FO is moving its fleet to conquer these worlds. And when Rey is trying to convince Luke she said that the Core Worlds would be conquered in mere weeks without him.

As a second opinion, my wife (who hates TFA) put TLJ in her SW top3.

I felt more or less the same way on the second viewing. Second time I watched to pay attention to story elements.

Third viewing I paid attention to character elements. I actually like it even less than I did after the first viewing now. Kinda wish I'd just left it at two, but meh. Characters are a dumpster fire in this movie.

10 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Dude you would be surprised. I've run into a bunch of people who claim that, not only is the Old Republic their favorite era because "they don't like the films" but I've run into dudes who outright prefer the EU to everything.

Speaking of the Old Republic era it'd be interesting to see how much correlation there is between people who prefer TLJ to TFA and people who like KotOR II more than KotOR I.

I haven't seen damage control of this level since Hilary lost. The movie was at best adequate as an episode of rebels. I left TFA upset mainly because I had agreed to watch it again with other people. i left TLJ disappointed because they squandered potential with hamfisted jokes, pointless scenes, and caricatures.

And anyone who doesn't think the mouse uses their influence to silence for change criticisms from critics, I really have to question how it is you manage to breathe.

Interesting. Everybody seems to have a strong opinion about that film, either way. So do I.

Why are the OT great pieces of art? I think, because Lucas succeeded in co-creating modern mythology. Scaled correctly, SW appears to be no less relevant to modern popular storytelling and imagination than ancient mythology (or Tolkien's world), and this remains quite some achievement no matter what people think of the actual movies. Taking just Darth Vader, his figure has become the prototypical Dark Knight whether I like it or not. The wise wizard, the princess. To get to this success, everybody in the cast had to act in a prototypical way. Everything is simple and connected by family ties, predestination, and magic. Visuals and music are an integral part of this.

Now, the universe set up, there is opportunity for telling new and different stories, including new stories for the original characters. Like people have done with their own mythology all the time.

I went to the cinema with my kids, rather sceptical about what they would do again with that universe and the same characters as before, and was more than pleasantly surprised.

This film chose not to tell another fairy tale. It introduced self-contradictions. And thus, characters that could be imagined in the real world, not just in mythology. They were played by real actors. Just the setting is the same as before in SW, of course, including visuals and all.

This time, the theme of this movie is not success against all odds. What we see is missing information, wrong decisions, misunderstandings, and failure. The heroic deeds lead to disaster. Long-term plans collapse in a moment. Elaborate plot lines end nowhere. Factions fight internally. Munity evolves without consequences. Long-anticipated revelations just don't happen.

Physics? In all SW, physics always was a plot device and could be modified at will. If I am making up theories about what is possible in this alternative physics and what not, that can be fun or an obsession, but I really deserve to be disappointed next time. Some posters have remarked that the TLJ violations of physics or logic are not among the worst offenders ... so people are complaining about bombers dropping bombs in space? In SW any starship larger than a car comes with its own gravity built-in, so why shouldn't bombs exploit that gravity? The chase? The plot is taken from 16th century sailing-ship chases, so at least this once was real world somewhere. Instantaneous movement? And more of this kind. The idea, as always, is to generate suspense and visuals. If that succeeds, fine.

The leadership of the greatest military power in the universe is a collection of incompetent psychopaths. Some people argue that this is unbelievable beyond imagination. Well ...

Remarkable plot lines:

- Snoke acts and consequently appears to everybody like a sort-of-reincarnation of the Emperor. Does he really need a backstory? Everybody seems to believe this anyway, including himself. And then he loses control just for a tiny moment.

- Kylo is failing in everything he plans to do, and precisely because of this becomes the ultimate leader. And he can't even control himself.

- Rey, from her very first scene in TFA, controls all magic powers. And for the whole movie, she has no clue whatsoever why and what to do in any situation.

- Finn is working like a berserker to become a proverbial hero (again) and fails every time. His acts are meaningless at best. He is not even funny.

- Luke. We watch the same key scene several times with different interpretation, without a real resolution. He is telling us that magic is not something that can be learned like a language, but he is not sure of that. In the end, he nevertheless saves the day by magic (it's still a big movie, so that had to happen eventually). He dies alone. And he is allowed to determine the theme of the story: throw away the light saber. Do not use the X-wing. Do not (actually) fight. Do not teach anything useful.

All characters find themselves in situations which they neither control nor understand. And they don't even do the right thing. Nevertheless, the story goes on. Neither the resistance, nor the FO manage to completely destroy each other or themselves.

Also remarkable: TLJ takes magic (the Force) seriously. It is said several times - laser fights, lifting stones, mind tricks, doesn't mean much. This time, we see a different and impactful form of magic: manipulating the vision and minds of people, far apart of each other, over a long time. In this respect, TLJ moves the idea of magic force into a much more interesting direction than Lucas did.

I can agree that this is not a SW movie. It is a new part of the SW saga that develops its own theme within the story. It is not about SW mythology, it is about people acting and reacting to their environment, often failing, in situations beyond their capabilities.

I have no idea whether this particular movie will stand the test of time - maybe, maybe not. But right now, for me it is the most interesting and refreshening adaption of SW substance. This includes the OT.

BTW, for the kids it was simply the best SW movie ever.

1 hour ago, McFoy said:

I haven't seen damage control of this level since Hilary lost. The movie was at best adequate as an episode of rebels. I left TFA upset mainly because I had agreed to watch it again with other people. i left TLJ disappointed because they squandered potential with hamfisted jokes, pointless scenes, and caricatures.

And anyone who doesn't think the mouse uses their influence to silence for change criticisms from critics, I really have to question how it is you manage to breathe.

I like how most reviews are reviewing the legacy of the franchise instead of the movie. They are creepy to read, like reading the critique of the Great Leader in a North Korean newspaper. The Great Mouse cannot make a misstep.

The reviews are full of carefully placed comparisons: though the film goes off the rails in a few places, it never fails to deliver what fans want OR clearly the story does not deliver a coherent progression for the characters but it got three standing ovations OR the film lacks all the reveals fans wanted, but it really does a great job at wowing us.

Just creepy.

Here's a thought. The whole theme of failure in TLJ closely ties to the plot of ESB. Who actually succeeded in that film?

Luke failed to defeat Vader

Yoda failed to convince Luke to continue his training

Han failed to protect the Princess from the Empire

Leia failed to rescue Han from Boba Fett

Chewie failed to put C-3PO's head on correctly

Vader failed to capture Luke

The Rebels failed at staying hidden from the Empire

The Empire failed to completely destroy the Rebels

The Ugnauts failed to play keepaway from Chewie

Ozzel failed Vader for the last time

And Obi-Wan's failure was complete

57 minutes ago, flyboymb said:

Here's a thought. The whole theme of failure in TLJ closely ties to the plot of ESB. Who actually succeeded in that film?

Luke failed to defeat Vader

Yoda failed to convince Luke to continue his training

Han failed to protect the Princess from the Empire

Leia failed to rescue Han from Boba Fett

Chewie failed to put C-3PO's head on correctly

Vader failed to capture Luke

The Rebels failed at staying hidden from the Empire

The Empire failed to completely destroy the Rebels

The Ugnauts failed to play keepaway from Chewie

Ozzel failed Vader for the last time

And Obi-Wan's failure was complete

When you look at it that way, it’s not surprising Boba Fett came out of that movie with so much fan adoration. He and Lobot are the only characters in the whole movie who don’t fail at something.

Han didn't fail at winning leia's heart.

Chewie got creepio back.

5 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Han didn't fail at winning leia's heart.

Chewie got creepio back.

Luke succeeded in getting his hand chopped off.

Just now, BlodVargarna said:

Luke succeeded in getting his hand chopped of.

I know you mocking but that hand played a part in his refusing to turn to the dark side.

12 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

I know you mocking but that hand played a part in his refusing to turn to the dark side.

Don’t get me wrong, the whole Bespin duel with Vader is probably the best sequence in the entire SW saga.

But lighten up Francis.

21 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Don’t get me wrong, the whole Bespin duel with Vader is probably the best sequence in the entire SW saga...

...yep.

Luke rushes back to help his friends. Ends up face to face with the embodiment of evil.

He does alright to start with. "Impressive!" wheezes the Dark Lord.

Then the music changes.

And Vader starts using the Force.

And it's obvious Luke is hopelessly outmatched.

Moments of pure filmmaking genius, right there.

Why wasn’t Master Skywalker impressed when Rey returned his lightsaber?

Because he was Luke’n for his hand.

snare snare cymbal

I laugh at my own Star Wars dad jokes.

28 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...yep.

Luke rushes back to help his friends. Ends up face to face with the embodiment of evil.

He does alright to start with. "Impressive!" wheezes the Dark Lord.

Then the music changes.

And Vader starts using the Force.

And it's obvious Luke is hopelessly outmatched.

Moments of pure filmmaking genius, right there.

Definitely. When I've watched it again, I've really noticed that to begin with Vader is not trying in the slightest. He uses the saber one handed, lazily deflects Luke's blows, and toys with him.
Luke surprises him a bit, but as soon as Vader decides to actually put some effort in, it's all over.

Can we at least all agree that John Williams did an amazing job?

On 12/14/2017 at 5:25 AM, Dwing said:

How about The Knights of Ren, Kylo popped out of bed, formed a group on the way to the temple and burned it down? Oh wait, we just forget about those. Snoke officially took Jar Jars place as worst character for me, left field character, everything with him was straight up ripped from the Emperor, not used to any satisfying story point at all and just disposed off because Disney clearly had no plan for him. Ep 8 makes it seem like they did not have a plan for most they set up in 7.

Correction: Rian Johnson had no plans for what was set up in Episode 7. I feel sorry for JJ Abrams. He has to clean up the mess that Rian Johnson made not only of Ep 7 but also the entire Jedi mythology.

The Last Jedi reminds me of X-men: The Last Stand. Where a different director, Brett Rattner, was brought in who screwed up the X-men cinematic universe by killing off and and/or de-powering many important characters. He also completely fumbled the Dark Phoenix storyline that was setup at the end of the the second X-men movie. The result was that we never got to see the interesting movies that might have been made with the original X-men characters. Fox spent several years making Wolverine solo movies and had to do a soft reboot of the X-men universe by creating stories that took place in the 1960's and 70's. The result was a screwed up timeline that makes no sense and split the entire cast of characters in the X-men universe between 2 different time periods. By the time the timeline was "fixed" in Days of Future past the original cast members were getting too old. Of course Brett Rattner didn't care. He got to make an X-men movie and then move on to other projects.

On 12/14/2017 at 7:06 AM, Omnitron310 said:

1. Ships suddenly have limited fuel reserves. I realise this may not have been relevant before, and therefore never mentioned, but it strikes me as odd and lazy. Also, a spaceship flying in a straight line would continue to move at the same speed even if it ran out of fuel. Speaking of which...
2. Why is the Resistance's ship faster? It's been established that, although not very manoeuvrable, Star Destroyers can go very fast in a straight line because their huge size and power allows them to have massive engines. Also, the Resistance's ship is fast enough to get out of effective range of the First Order's guns, but then they can only maintain an equal distance from them and not pull away? What?

Stuff like this might seem like nitpicking, but when it's an essential explanation for one of the central conflicts in your ilm, the fact it requires you to switch off your brain to accept it and also flies in the face of stuff previously established on-screen in other Star Wars films becomes annoying.

It's definitely not nit-picking. The entire premise of the movie, that resistance ships were being followed by the New Order fleet and unable to warp away, was a contrived pile of poo. It required them to break the laws of the Star Wars universe by giving the New Order fleet the ability to track the rebels through hyperspace and pretending that fighters are suddenly unable to overtake slow moving capital ships. In future movies they will have to ignore this stupid idea so that every space battle where the Resistance is outgunned by the New Order (which is pretty much all of them) doesn't turn into another lame slow motion chase with all the ships flying in a straight line for 2 hours.

The bottom line is that is it is just lazy writing. If the premise of your movie requires contrivances like this to make it work, your story sucks and you need to go back to the drawing board.

5 hours ago, Sithborg said:

Can we at least all agree that John Williams did an amazing job?

I've seen people disagree on that as well, but I think they don't see that a great score usually needs some revisiting to be recognized. I'm not quite as enthusiastic about this one as about TFAs soundtrack, but mostly because it is pretty derivative of those themes. It still accomplishes a lot. Kylos motive has evolved into a great theme. The Canto Bight casino track is great and fresh.

5 hours ago, Sithborg said:

Can we at least all agree that John Williams did an amazing job?

I can't actually remember any of the music too much else distracted me.

[Late night posting redacted]

...sums up a lot of my own thoughts quite nicely. Lots of style, little substance, very sad.

22 hours ago, McFoy said:

I haven't seen damage control of this level since Hilary lost. The movie was at best adequate as an episode of rebels. I left TFA upset mainly because I had agreed to watch it again with other people. i left TLJ disappointed because they squandered potential with hamfisted jokes, pointless scenes, and caricatures.

And anyone who doesn't think the mouse uses their influence to silence for change criticisms from critics, I really have to question how it is you manage to breathe.

Oh man, everywhere I go I am seeing ads for how awesome the movie is and then on Facebook posts to news articles trying to “inform” us why we are not understanding the movie and how it’s really a secretly brilliant film, etc.

My prediction: over the long term this will go down as one of the misses in the Star Wars franchise. I sincerely hope that JJ can fix this in Ep9 and deliver another quality film.

I find it funny that ep8 hate goes as far as this:

https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-have-disney-strike-star-wars-episode-viii-from-the-official-canon

Btw: I'd love to have a new episode 8, but I doubt that would happen. But perhaps they can still swap directors for the new trilogy, they don't seem to have a problem with swapping directors...

On 2017-12-29 at 8:02 AM, Firespray-32 said:

Speaking of the Old Republic era it'd be interesting to see how much correlation there is between people who prefer TLJ to TFA and people who like KotOR II more than KotOR I.

Okay.. I'll bite. While I love the Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, even with any flaws, the same can't be said about the kotor games.

Those games I found were visually jarring - the fact that everything including inderwear was made of cortosis really bothered me. The animations of characters hitting each other with lightsabers and not damage was, I understand, due to technical limitations and the horrible d20 mechanics they used.

Next, the storyline was completely unoriginal for me. The big reveal was, I found telegraphed, and given that you start the game with amnesia, pretty much guaranteed the setup.

While you were offered ‘choices’ in the game, they were meaningless. At the end of the day, you had to make a combat centric Jedi Guardian, as they had the best Base attack bonus.

A great game with meaningful choices was Planescape: Torment a game where I could playthrough multiple ways, fighter, wizard, rogue. I could fight the end boss, or, if smart, wise, charismatic, I could talk to the end boss and make him see my point of view. Kotor... just fight them.

Finally, the visuals of the game were so reminiscent of the original movie design aesthetic - disposable not TIE Fighters, Not Blockade Runners, Not Darth Vader villian, not R2-D2, not Bacta, etc. The comics at the time, Tales of the Jedi I believe, showed an old republic visually different. Lightsabers had huge backpack batteries and cables, spaceships were huge hollowed out insects. It was different. Kotor while maybe not introducing the technological stagnation that Star Wars seems to have, at least reinforced it.

The lackluster story, subpar mechanics that emphasizes the ‘correct’ way to play, and hugely derivative world building led it to being one of the worst gaming experiences I have had. That being said, I did like the look of the selkath and the Not Stormtroopers... err.. sith troopers.

35 minutes ago, MaxPower said:

I find it funny that ep8 hate goes as far as this...

...yeah, that's not going to help anything. What's done is done. But, in the words of Yvaine: "Love can be unpredictable, unexpected, uncontrollable, unbearable and strangely easy to mistake for loathing". I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of the negative reactions to The Last Jedi - even the most over the top ones - all come from the same place, and that's love, not hate.

As an aside, your username is one of the best footballer names ever - https://www.whoscored.com/Players/134442/Show/Max-Power