7 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Not a big follower of PewDiePie, but he hits the nail on the head with his recap

Couldn't disagree more. I think he makes maybe one good point - I agree they mishandled the humor, although I might disagree with him about why the humor wasn't great. I think there was too much slapstick, not enough bickering/banter.

Overall I think it's a really lazy review that is constantly making factual errors about the movie's plot and glazing over some really obvious details about the movie that contradict his interpretation.

46 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

"Love is blind" is the entire case for the defense, huh? Dear God, if that's "saying it best", then we've got some serious problems here.

I mean seriously. You're effectively writing off anyone who expresses reservations, criticisms or dislke for the film as a "hater" (presumably that includes Mark Hamill?), while people who ignore valid criticisms and complaints and sticks their head in the sand is essentially a "true fan". That's pathetic.

Going back to the point about how "the movie is better when you've read the books/comics etc"...

...haven't we just had this discussion a couple of weeks ago with the whole Battlefront 2 fiasco? EA were slammed for releasing a sub-par product riddled with microtransactions, now Disney are getting a pass on a sub-par film that has it's microscopically thin characters and plot fleshed out in supplementary materials? I mean come on people, try and be a little bit more consistent than the film is, at least.

I think you totally misread something in my post is al I can say. Whatever this is above is nothing of what I'm talking about and I really don't quite get how you are summarizing this.

2 hours ago, Babaganoosh said:

Overall I think it's a really lazy review that is constantly making factual errors about the movie's plot

...the main mistake being assuming the movie actually has a plot, and isn't just a collection of aesthetically pleasing set pieces tenuously connected by a paper-thin narrative.

We drove to the movie theater convinced that we would be with the fans who love the film. We were alone in the theater and spent the last ten minutes of the film standing with our coats on. When we realized that there was yet another scene with a BIG MESSAGE i.e. Charles Dickens in Space, my wife let out an audible groan. Yes we wanted to love it. Yes it is a terrible film. Traumatically bad.

This is coming from a fan who has watched Rogue One about forty times. At least once per week I say to my lady, "That is a bad idea. I think so and so does Cassian." Yeah and Han shot first. I love the franchise. I always will. But when someone at the helm screws up, Disney needs to know about it. I hope the film fails miserably. If it does, then we might enjoy better installments in the future.

Here is what makes the film bad, not just Star Wars bad, but film bad. Bad films suffer from the following:

Pacing. How much film do you need to tell part of a story? How quickly can you convey or reveal character? How much dialogue does that take? How long the scene? For example the Wampa scene in Empire Strikes Back. It lasts not more than a minute or two. And it tells us that time has passed and Luke has really been improving with The Force. If the director of TLJ (I don't know his name and I don't need to know his name) had directed that scene, it would have lasted fifteen minutes, Luke would have almost gotten his light saber about three times and the Wampa would have knocked Luke around a few times before getting a really cool head shot. TLJ has terrible pacing. Way too much time is spent trying to convey an idea. The woman who had to release the bombs: how many times does she have to hit the ladder to get the remote--yes we bombers use remotes to release the bombs, you know, a remote, something that can be misplaced--I believe three times. That's not suspense. That is tedium.

Characterization. Do characters develop and act like us? Even Yoda snaps at Luke in Empire, "Look so good when you are 800, hmmm?" or something like that. Yoda's character is fantastical, yes, but human. When the admiral with the purple hair suffers a mutiny, she responds a few minutes later like a shallow, two-dimensional, vacant puppet being mastered by an adolescent: "He's a trouble-maker. I like him!" From what little I know of mutinies, it does not end well for the mutineers. They are not troublemakers but rather threats to command and control. They kill morale and agency. This is why mutinies are rare.

Theme. Assume your audience, even the younglings, have a brain. Don't smack your viewers over the head with the messages you want them to receive. Yes oppression is bad. Yes fighting against oppression requires sacrifice. We get it.

Ugh. And then the Star Wars bad: Snoke's chamber? I was half expecting to see Ming the Merciless step forward. Poe spent most of the movie narrating what was happening in his corner of the movie. Luke's scenes were terrible. He spends the first hour stomping around saying "Go away!" And then my favorite scene. I call it "Hey look how well Luke is managing on this wet island!!" And the Mary Poppins scene. Who thought that was a good idea? What purpose did it serve? Rey's character is great--they should have written her a better story. And Kylo? I am really tired of this adolescent, brooding lad. Driver is a great actor. He got stuck in this terrible film.

I hope Rogue One continues to out perform, smash really, TLJ. And I hope Disney takes note.

If you enjoyed this film, I am happy for a fellow fan. I know there are things to like: Rose's character is fresh. The crystal foxes were cool. Force projection was a great end for Luke. But I just wish it was not such a bad film.

The film has a plot... It's about the crucial 24 hours that define end of the resistance so they become Rebels (The pride in Dern's voice was quite offputting, especially when she repeated it for emphasis).

But it's also the start of the end of the FO (my opinion). Kylo couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery...

But it was sooooo badly done. Apart from the pew pew moments.

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

presumably that includes Mark Hamill

Wrong.

45 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...the main mistake being assuming the movie actually has a plot, and isn't just a collection of aesthetically pleasing set pieces tenuously connected by a paper-thin narrative.

Cough *suicide squad* cough

40 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Wrong.

Unfortunately, the ostrich defence mechanism has never proven effective. Just because you prefer to close your eyes and cover your ears to is doesn't mean the criticism is magically no longer there.

Honestly, the mental hoops you people are jumping through to persuade yourselves the movie is perfect, it's hilarious.

43 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Cough *suicide squad* cough

That's a pretty good comparison, actually.

15 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Unfortunately, the ostrich defence mechanism has never proven effective. Just because you prefer to close your eyes and cover your ears to is doesn't mean the criticism is magically no longer there.

Honestly, the mental hoops you people are jumping through to persuade yourselves the movie is perfect, it's hilarious.

You’ve decided that Hammil doesn’t like TLJ. All of the videos purporting to show otherwise are bits taken out of context. The man has defended Rian in numerous tweets and interviews. But that doesn’t fit your hater narrative so you and your fellow haters have conconcted some fake news that Disney has silenced Hammil. And like any peddler of garage conspiracy theories, all evidence to the contrary of the lie you propagate is discounted. It’s sad really.

I pretty much enjoy your posts in other places so I don’t want to ignore you. Perhaps I just need to ignore this thread it’s taken too much of my time as it is and all the negativity here is toxic.

11 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Not a big follower of PewDiePie, but he hits the nail on the head with his recap

Is the nail that you can't stand humor in a star wars movie because you didn't actually watch any of the others?

8 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Is the nail that you can't stand humor in a star wars movie because you didn't actually watch any of the others?

Ssshh. Don't remind people that the star wars they think they love, isn't Star Wars, but a selectively remembered collection of Star Wars scenes were any and all of the humor and slapstick has been removed thanks to decades of consuming EU material that basically has none of it, thus warping one's view of Star Wars.

We can't be factual like that, not here.

14 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

You’ve decided that Hammil doesn’t like TLJ. All of the videos purporting to show otherwise are bits taken out of context. The man has defended Rian in numerous tweets and interviews. But that doesn’t fit your hater narrative so you and your fellow haters have conconcted some fake news that Disney has silenced Hammil. And like any peddler of garage conspiracy theories, all evidence to the contrary of the lie you propagate is discounted. It’s sad really.

Now that's a false narrative.

I don't "hate" the film. I've never purported to "hate" the film. As I've said previously elsewhere, I was entertained watching it, I enjoyed most of the jokes, and I particularly enjoyed Mark Hamill's performance. The visuals were gorgeous, if not as authentically "Star Wars" as the visuals in Rogue One. However, I wasn't at all satisfied with the story, and I'm not particularly bothered about where the series goes from here. It's an OK film, but not "the best Star Wars film since Empire Strikes Back" as the critics have gushed; it's not even the best Star Wars film of the past 12 months.

It's a solid 7 out of 10. Above average. That's not hate, that's realism. If there's any hate in this topic, it's in the disingenuous hyperbole of posters like @FourDogsInaHorseSuit and @Captain Lackwit who - as seen quite clearly and embarrassingly above - simply refuse to accept that people can have a differing opinion to their own.

As for Mark's comments - he is on record as disagreeing with the writing and direction for his character. He's since stated that he regrets making those comments in public - not that he regrets having those reservations, just that he's stated them in front of the masses. The man is a professional and did his job to the best of his ability, and he's perfectly entitled to his opinion on a character he helped develop. As is anyone who has complaints or criticisms over the writing and plot.

7 out of 10. That's more than fair.

1 hour ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Cough *suicide squad* cough

To five it credit, they didn't play obnoxious pop reference songs over the scenes, they stuck that in the jokes.

It also at least has a bit more story than Suicide Squad- which isn't saying much, but if a story is moving from A to B, that's quite literally (all) they did- and the best part of the movie.

7 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

It's a solid 7 out of 10. Above average. That's not hate, that's realism. If there's any hate in this topic, it's in the disingenuous hyperbole of posters like @FourDogsInaHorseSuit and @Captain Lackwit who - as seen quite clearly and embarrassingly above - simply refuse to accept that people can have a differing opinion to their own.

Hyperbole would be reminding people that PewDiePie is a Nazi, when in reality he's just using them ironically.

Or is it hyperbole to say PewDiePie didn't start the beginning of his 'review' getting mad about jokes, and then also hyperbole to mention that literally every other star wars flick has had jokes? K2SO, C3PO, Darth Vader, and Han Solo all come from a long line of making jokes in star wars, but there's something different about this movie because...

14 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Now that's a false narrative.

I don't "hate" the film. I've never purported to "hate" the film. As I've said previously elsewhere, I was entertained watching it, I enjoyed at the jokes, and particularly enjoyed Mark Hamill's performance. The visuals were gorgeous, if not as authentically "Star Wars" as the visuals in Rogue One. However, I wasn't at all satisfied with the story, and I'm not particularly bothered about where the series goes from there. It's an OK film, but not "the best Star Wars film since Empire Strikes Back" as the critics have gushed; it's not even the best Star Wars film of the past 12 months.

It's a solid 7 out of 10. Above average. That's not hate, that's realism. If there's any hate in this topic, it's in the disingenuous hyperbole of posters like @FourDogsInaHorseSuit and @Captain Lackwit who - as seen quite clearly and embarrassingly above - simply refuse to accept that people can have a differing opinion to their own.

As for Mark's comments - he is on record as disagreeing with the writing and direction for his character. He's since stated that he regrets making those comments in public - not that he regrets having reservations, just that he's stated them in front of the masses. The man is a professional and did his job to the best of his ability, but he's perfectly entitled to his opinion. As is anyone who has complaints or criticisms over the writing and plot.

7 out of 10. That's more than fair.

Hahahaha.

Hardly. I like differing opinions.

I just don't like differing opinions that are fueled or punctuated by very personal hate and thus lose a great deal of objectivity. But feel free to keep on saying I can't accept that, because it looks to me that it's very hard for negative fans to accept that people can enjoy something like, like you do know what it was like to head that Rebels thread, in the early days?

I had to be sure, Gex.

Had to be sure people would come around, had to have faith, had to believe, had to believe people could look past their preconceived notions and like something.

They did. Eventually a good portion of the forum decided Rebels wasn't awful, perhaps even, it was really good. Do you know how happy, how proud I am of that? Not of me, mind. But to see fans that may've been negative or otherwise angry, really unabashedly enjoy something?

I don't think you do get how that might feel, and then be called somebody who can't stand other's opinions.

My greatest mentor despises The Last Jedi, Kathleen Kennedy, and "The Force is Female" and I still love this guy, I still talk to him because it IS just a movie, one I love, one he hates. We're agreed on that last bit being very stupid and negative, though. But if my greatest Mentor who I have chosen to learn under as a writer, can dislike my favorite Star Wars film so strongly, and I'm okay with that?

That alone proves the only disingenuous narrative between us, is yours.

It is not a crime to hate things, hating things is just unproductive.

Saying "you're a hater" isn't an argument, it's Ad Hominem. A fallacy.
Likewise being mad isn't an argument, it's just a quality that can be added to an argument.

"I disagree with A, B, and C, and my distaste for them is amplified beyond mere academia due to conflict with personal experience; thus, I not only disagree with them, but hate them (an emotional reaction) as well."

Hate is not the argument, just a quality of it. One having an emotional reaction does not invalidate a the rest of their argument. (But only if they had an argument.)

And do not commit the Fallacy Fallacy. The inclusion of an Ad Hominem in an argument does not nullify the rest of the argument: only the fallacy itself is invalid, not the argument as a whole.



TLDR: It's o.k. to hate things, but you'll still need an argument to convince anyone to agree with you.

Also, if a post contains no argument and is nothing but unsupported hate/fandom or fallacies, it's most likely the poster"venting" and probably something they would get more out of sharing with friends rather than strangers on a forum*. You can only get spotty sympathy from strangers, empathy requires a person that knows you.

*Yes, forums are places to share viewpoints, but personally I find unsupported viewpoints to be... pointless. There are only so many aesthetically pleasing ways of phrasing "I like/don't like thing." and they all convey the same amount of information. When it devolves into "I like/dislike person." then communication breaks down due to (and I forget the term for it) a psychological quirk equivalent to "mental defenses".

If you put a person "on their guard" with a direct comment or attack, they will stop absorbing information. If I for some reason tell someone "Wow, you're a dumbass." and then remember that I wanted to convince them of something, I usually cut the dialogue short and try again after both an amends and a day have passed.

Edit. In that order: amends first, then wait a day. The inverse would just put the guard up again and I'd have to start over.

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

...the main mistake being assuming the movie actually has a plot, and isn't just a collection of aesthetically pleasing set pieces tenuously connected by a paper-thin narrative.

IT does. Objectively there is literally no getting around that this film has one.

This is the problem with modern debate there is a loss in any sense of what is objective and what is preferential.

Objectively this film has a plot, only one you dislike.

/Fixed

2 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Ssshh. Don't remind people that the star wars they think they love, isn't Star Wars, but a selectively remembered collection of Star Wars scenes were any and all of the humor and slapstick has been removed thanks to decades of consuming EU material that basically has none of it, thus warping one's view of Star Wars.

We can't be factual like that, not here.

I don't know if it is factual, as I've never bothered with the EU. But anyone must realize whether they love the EU or not, the EU is not Star Wars, nor is is the source material (nor should it be) for any Star Wars movie.

This is aside from whether you like any particular movie or not. It is that Star Wars, the movies, are the source of the rest of it all, not the other way around.

10 minutes ago, KelRiever said:

I don't know if it is factual, as I've never bothered with the EU. But anyone must realize whether they love the EU or not, the EU is not Star Wars, nor is is the source material (nor should it be) for any Star Wars movie.

This is aside from whether you like any particular movie or not. It is that Star Wars, the movies, are the source of the rest of it all, not the other way around.

Ok, and the movies were full of humor so I don't know the relevance of what you are trying to say since liwik is also saying the EU is not canon either.

2 hours ago, KelRiever said:

I don't know if it is factual, as I've never bothered with the EU. But anyone must realize whether they love the EU or not, the EU is not Star Wars, nor is is the source material (nor should it be) for any Star Wars movie.

This is aside from whether you like any particular movie or not. It is that Star Wars, the movies, are the source of the rest of it all, not the other way around.

Dude you would be surprised. I've run into a bunch of people who claim that, not only is the Old Republic their favorite era because "they don't like the films" but I've run into dudes who outright prefer the EU to everything.

You know what is the most painful thing about all this?
That people so many people who hate TLJ are able to watch that garbage RO movie more than once. RO is a sin against the world, but people complain about thin plot in TLJ. It's astounding how wrong people can be on fundamental levels.

3 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

You know what is the most painful thing about all this?
That people so many people who hate TLJ are able to watch that garbage RO movie more than once. RO is a sin against the world, but people complain about thin plot in TLJ. It's astounding how wrong people can be on fundamental levels.

I liked most of RO and dislike most of TLJ, sentiments which furthered with time.

I felt that RO acknowledged and built on a universe I was familiar with, adding new characters, technologies, and areas that while I liked or disliked on an individual level were fairly fleshed out, and felt like they fit as a logical extension of the overall Saga. The galaxy got bigger, but stayed cohesive; so-to-speak.

TLJ on the other hand continued what seems to me to be part-for-part copying the old movies plotlines while systematically disregarding, replacing, and removing all relevancy and reference to the stories that came before. The past repeating just re-named, re-colored, and inflated.

So tell me what "sin" means to you, what specifically you disliked about RO even if it was intangible like a mood or a tone, and what you liked about TLJ (if you did like TLJ).

I watched TLJ a second time.

First time, I had mixed feelings. I mostly liked it but some things were bothering me (Canto Bright arc, timing, plot holes). After the second vision, a lot of these concerns were eased. Once you know the actual motivation of the characters, their actions have much more logic (Luke throwing the lightsaber, Yoda burning the tree, Holdo's disdain for Poe, Kylo's...). Also the Canto Bright arc does not have that much of screen time and serves the Finn character development.

One of the criticism for TLJ in the first pages of this thread was that the FO conquered the Core Worlds in a matters of hours ordays between TFA and TLJ. I don't know if this complain was already invalidated but the scrolling text only states that the FO is moving its fleet to conquer these worlds. And when Rey is trying to convince Luke she said that the Core Worlds would be conquered in mere weeks without him.

As a second opinion, my wife (who hates TFA) put TLJ in her SW top3.

9 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

You know what is the most painful thing about all this?
That people so many people who hate TLJ are able to watch that garbage RO movie more than once. RO is a sin against the world, but people complain about thin plot in TLJ. It's astounding how wrong people can be on fundamental levels.

This is just hysterical

Rogue One has plenty of fair criticisms that can be made against it, but objectively it has a cohesive plot, characters behave rationally given what we know about them, and it largely coheres to the Star Wars universe (planetary hyperspace jump being the big sin). Whether you personally enjoyed it or hated it, from a film-making standpoint it is a solid movie.