Just now, Jiron said:

From my perspective it was empty story with no emotional subtext, lame and insignificat characters with very unstable motivations and significant amounts of enormous plot holes!

I think it's just the matter of prefferences.

Not all of it is simply a matter of preference, though. From a technical standpoint, Rogue One is far more consistent within the Universe and within its own story than TLJ. Whether you preferred the style/acting/direction/whatever is one thing-- you're more than welcome to enjoy TLJ, and find it preferable to R1! But in terms of maintaining consistency with the other movies and moving through sequential steps of character development (whether you found them compelling or not), Rogue One does more.

22 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

2) Admiral Hoopla's refusal to share an entirely simple to explain plan was ridiculous

Hold up, here - the Rebels knew their fleet was being tracked, they just didn't know how. A spy on the ship was certainly the most likely/obvious method, which means discussing your plan to escape with any officer who asks...probably not a great idea.

Quote

3) hyperspace smash-mouth superweapon they never thought of up to now was bollocks

'Ramming' is always fun in video games, but almost never done in reality. Because you are looking at, what, 1/4 of the Rebel fleet being lost, there? To destroy a single First Order ship, of which their (may, although not in this case, but usually) be many more? A 1-for-1 trade of ships is never a deal that any naval commander willingly makes. Even with overwhelming numbers against one adversary, if you 1-to-1 your entire navy away against them, it just means that now you went from the largest superpower to someone vulnerable to a few dozen of your neighbors. I mean...that's why ranged weapons were invented, because fighting in a melee to the death of one combatant and crippling of the other...is to no way to run a military.

10 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Not all of it is simply a matter of preference, though. From a technical standpoint, Rogue One is far more consistent within the Universe and within its own story than TLJ. Whether you preferred the style/acting/direction/whatever is one thing-- you're more than welcome to enjoy TLJ, and find it preferable to R1! But in terms of maintaining consistency with the other movies and moving through sequential steps of character development (whether you found them compelling or not), Rogue One does more.

I disagree. Points that are important to me is the také on Force/Mysticism. What I found perfectly based in the universe is the extreme power level of jedi. Because... in OT it took literaly 1 jedi to win the war. Prequels downgraded jedi to guys with laser swords. And even though Chirrut was awesome in R1, Luke in TLJ gave us the feel about how powerful the jedi should have been in OT.

Also, when talking about Star Wars feeling. Notice that in OT every main character was strongly archetypal and "best in his/her field". Every character had basically one quality (Daring Han, Independent Leia, Gifted Luke, Wise Obi-Wan...). Which is much more seen in Sequels then in R1. We have Reckless Poe, Cowardly Finn, Unbreakable Rey, Broken Luke, Emotional Ren, Selfless Rose and so on.

So to close it, I like this fairy tale, simplistic take on Star Wars because I feel it closer to the OT and often (such as in TLJ) bring new ways to make things epic.

49 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

@Azrapse did it ever occur to you that you might have misunderstood some parts? E.g. someone here thought that a lightsaber killed Luke, or did not realize that Poe, Finn and Rose effectively killed almost the entire Resistance. Maybe there are other points that you, too, understood wrong? E.g.:

The Canto stuff shows how good Holdo is, how dumb Poe is, and how much of a coward Finn was. Both Poe and Finn go through character development, Poe turning into a leader understanding Luke's intention, and Finn learns to fight and what to fight for. That's not "nowhere".

Not really. Instead we got for the first time a very clear demonstration what the Jedi see and feel when they feel the force surrounding them. Luke was teaching us as much as Rey.

Like lightning? Like mindtricks? Why is one better or worse than the other? Because one has been around for 40 years and we all accepted it, while the other has been around for 40 hours and we did not yet?

Maybe you missed that Rey actually took the books from the tree? Also, it was Yoda himself burning the tree to teach a lesson - again not only to Luke but also to us.

Honestly, at this point you are grasping for things to hate. Same with the Raddus being used as weapon. You could choose to understand, but instead you chose to hate it. Which is why "hater" is appropriate: you are actively ignoring explanation from the movie, actively misunderstanding and actively searching for points to hate.

No, the "You didn't understand it" won't do this time.
That's like the LOST series ended and there were people telling others that it wasn't that the ending was crap. It was that they didn't understand it.

Holdo is stupid for doing basically nothing for the whole movie while all frigates and support ships are destroyed one by one. Her whole plan was to reach the old Rebel base and do what? Die? Why didn't she just moved everyone to the frigates and did the hyperramming at the beginning? What did she achieve by waiting all the way until there was only a handful of people left? All her plan is founded, by the way, on the hope that the First Order is so stupid not to send some bombers to wipe them out. Of course, they are so stupid, othewise the movie falls apart.

You are telling me that the thing with Poe, Finn and Rose is a rip off the Wizard of Oz, where Poe (scarecrow) needs to get a brain, Finn (lion) needs to get a courage and Rose (tinman) needs to get a heart?
Finn already found his courage midway thru TFA, when he goes with Han to Starkiller base to rescue Rey, then again when he faces Kylo alone in the forest. The fact that the filmmakers have no idea what to do with him in this movie and opt for making him undo his journey by showing him chickening out to the escape pods only tells how clueless they were about this movie. He was already brave, so let's make him a coward again so that he can be brave again. Seriously?

This movie changes how the Force works to fit its needs. Lucas and Filoni are recorded in video (you can find it in Youtube) saying that the Light side is balance while the Dark side is chaos. Bringing balance to the force is countering chaos. And that is why there aren't Grey Jedi, and that is why Anakin was the Chosen One to bring balance to the Force (he kills the last two Sith in existence).
This movie turns that upside down and says that the Force instead tries to balance peace with violence, live with death and warmth with cold, that is the opposite of what Lucas said.

The collection of Force powers have been kept quite conservative during the whole saga. There are mind tricks, upgraded physical abilities, telepathy, telekinesis. They have always been basically mentalist kind of magic. It's been consistent. The Emperor needed to be shown as a powerful master of the Dark side by having something evil and otherwordly even for the Jedi, and so him and Dooku had lightning. They have not even been shown flying around with their mental powers, only falling slower.
But all this strange videoconference stuff? This illusionism? This levitation? This movie has turned the Force into Harry Potter's magic. Anything goes now.

I am not grasping for things to hate. I wanted to love this movie, but the movie kept punching my face for two and a half hours.

22 minutes ago, Jiron said:

Let me guess, you like Rogue One right?

Indeed. I think that movie built on Star Wars. Made it grow (as much or as little as you want, but it grew with new stuff), without having to burn it all to the ground first.

14 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

do you have any idea what happens when you apply faster than light speed to stuff? Not to mention, The Raddus was destroyed in the process? Unlike the IMPERVIOUS CORVETTE OF DOOOOOOOOOOM. Which they used twice.

No. We have no idea what happens when you apply faster than light speed to stuff in Star Wars because it is something that has not be explored before.
I have only two memories of something similar happening before:

• In The Clone Wars CGI series, the confederation loses a ship because it hyperspaces towards a planet.
• In the Star Wars Rebels series, Hera jumps to hyperspace thru a hanger, destroying everything in the hangar but not herself.

This movie establishes that jumping to hyperspace thru a group of ships destroys those ships. That is FINE to me. What it isn't fine is that they introduce that fact at this point in the series because there has been hyperspace and wars since before the Old Republic and never before they have shown that it would be so effective as a military tactic. They just chose to add that rule this late in the game because they needed it, and that is cheating, or ***-pulling it if you want the tvtropes term for it.

13 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Can anyone please explain to me why the First Order was doing pot shots at the cruisers for almost 2 hours of movie when they totally obliterated is bridge with just two lowly TIE Fighters?
I would be just happy to get that part explained to me. Please.

Why doesn't the any in the dozen or so of Star Destroyers or in the Mega Star Destroyer send a little squadron of bombers... no... even fighters... to attack the cruiser? They could do it at the beginning.
What happened afterwards?

It's not that they run out of fighters, when we can see lots of them in the hangars.

Why that ridiculous slow chase between two capital ships for hours?

Eh...pick up FFG's "Armada". You'll get it.

Honestly, that makes perfect sense given how that game works. More surprising that the First Order got shots at all, but...I mean, also kinda stupid they needed to trap an enemy and didn't bring an Interdictor. But...they didn't. So...yeah, that's the battle you get.

16 hours ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

And Jebus, all of Checkhov's guns lying around. Luke's X-Wing ...

Ah, heh, see - that's exactly the opposite. They are intentionally inverting that trope. And I love that!

That is - when you see Luke on Crait, you immediately think 'oh, sweet, he lifted his X-Wing from the water to get here and now he's going to be all badass in the air'...because we saw that X-Wing earlier. If you'd never seen that X-Wing, and we already know that Rey and Chewie left Acht-To with the only ship we see, you'd immediately question the entire thing. IE., 'Wait, how did Luke get here? Is he really here at all??' ...and that would completely undermine the entire sequence from that point on.

But we do see the X-Wing...under water...which we 'already know' means it is retrievable, and so it sets up expectations in a very specific way that allows the only really noticeable twist in the movie to be so much more interesting.

25 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

This movie establishes that jumping to hyperspace thru a group of ships destroys those ships. That is FINE to me. What it isn't fine is that they introduce that fact at this point in the series because there has been hyperspace and wars since before the Old Republic and never before they have shown that it would be so effective as a military tactic. They just chose to add that rule this late in the game because they needed it, and that is cheating, or ***-pulling it if you want the tvtropes term for it.

If it would have been effective military tactics, we would still have Kamikaze fighters. What Honka did was act of heroic desperation to give more time to the transports. I don't think the move was deliberately made to destroy the other ship. Just a pleasent side effect.

45 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Hold up, here - the Rebels knew their fleet was being tracked, they just didn't know how. A spy on the ship was certainly the most likely/obvious method, which means discussing your plan to escape with any officer who asks...probably not a great idea.

'Ramming' is always fun in video games, but almost never done in reality. Because you are looking at, what, 1/4 of the Rebel fleet being lost, there? To destroy a single First Order ship, of which their (may, although not in this case, but usually) be many more? A 1-for-1 trade of ships is never a deal that any naval commander willingly makes. Even with overwhelming numbers against one adversary, if you 1-to-1 your entire navy away against them, it just means that now you went from the largest superpower to someone vulnerable to a few dozen of your neighbors. I mean...that's why ranged weapons were invented, because fighting in a melee to the death of one combatant and crippling of the other...is to no way to run a military.

1 person in 1 object of mass destroyed the entire First Order Fleet.

Bullhonky.

I'm not terribly sure how to feel about TLJ, as for every great strength there appears to be a weakness to it- I guess I have to be content listing my ups and downs.

So, here we go, Pro:

- Poe Dameron. What a shift from TFA. Oozing character and motivation this time. Very likeable. Speaking of:

-The mutiny. There is a lot in TLJ that harkens back to Battlestar Galactica, from the chase to fuel shortage to the mutiny etc etc in the way it was handled. And just as there, it is great here.

- Snoke's and Kylo's fate. "Strike me down and your journey to the dark side will be complete" indeed. Also, the eventual explanation of Luke and Kylo's connection.

- Crait, especially visually. Scratch that, the visuals full stop.

- Porgs, funnily enough. The film has a lot of slapstick, but here it works.

- Finn vs Phasma, all- what was it, 5 seconds of it? Anyway, what was there was good.

- The Raddus' fate. To me, this is no Hammerhead, and a bit overstylized, but still, cool.

-Luke's teachings. Pretty surprisingly reflective. Hamill nailed it.

- TiE/fo pilots finishing the job Kylo's too much of a whimp for.

-The Praetorian Guard putting up some serious fight. Satisfying conclusion as well.

-DJ's portrayal as an unwavering opportunist.

Con:

- That. Leia scene. In space. It looked laugh-out-loud ridiculous, and could have been so easily replaced with any other scene explaining her survival. And she ended up in a coma anyway, could they seriously not think of anything less idiotic?

- General Hux. The butt of every second joke in the movie, his credibility as a villain is virtually nonexistant after this. He has been reduced to the shouty whiner Kylo was in TFA.

- The film's insistence of killing off all B/SF-17 crews in a heartbeat, only for the entire fleet to fail stopping a single surviving craft. The dreadnought was massive, it's not like leaving five bombers alive to perish in their own explosions would have lessened the stakes in any way. This is just a typical bad guy brainfart out of nowhere, lessening the impact of an otherwise amazing opening.

- Canto Bight and the forced (pardon the pun) message against animal cruelty. Made the Canto Bight arc almost superfluous and very reminiscent of Disney's animation projects- which isn't inherently bad, but clashes badly with the artistic direction of the rest of the movie.

- Phasma, sadly. "Yep, she's gone, deal with it" or "She'll come back again next time"? Place your bets now! No points for upping the ante with her, which is really sad, see Pros.

- "400" Resistance left. Some kind of resistance you are. And I thought Phasma exclaiming "we have 10.000 troops ready to fight" in the recent Battlefront trailer was an undersell. Are you trying to tell me that the Stormtrooper contingent of a single star destroyer against half the crew of a Nebulon-B (according to Age of Rebellion Core Rules) is the scope of our galactic conflict? Come on.

- The films reluctance to kill virtually anyone of importance. Admiral Holdo we barely knew and Luke being the one exception. Even Rose and Leia, both basically already dead, survive.

- Rose's exclamation of "saving what you love" after crashing into Finn- while the base with her friends explodes in the background. Nicely done.

So yeah, the film goes up and down almost constantly. It's not bad, far from it, and there is of course a lot I didn't list. It's not mediocre, either-when it's good, it rocks, but the bad stuff is really distracting.

Just now, Jiron said:

If it would have been effective military tactics, we would still have Kamikaze fighters. What Honka did was act of heroic desperation to give more time to the transports. I don't think the move was deliberately made to destroy the other ship. Just a pleasent side effect.

If she did it is because she expected it to have some destructive effect that would prevent the First Order from killing the Rebels. Otherwise, why doing it?
But if she expected it to have some destructive effect, then it's because she knew it would have it. She must have learned it from somewhere, right?
And if it's a well known effect (because, after 25,000 years of hyperspace history, someone must have tried?), then why nobody used it before? Why there aren't kamikaze ships? What makes it a paradox. A contradiction. If there aren't kamikaze ships, it's because it's ineffective. But then it shouldn't have had that effect or, at least, Holdo wouldn't have done it because she would have known it is ineffective!

The only possibility that makes sense is that nobody ever tried, nobody ever thought on it. It was like a taboo or something. But what does that say about the inhabitants of that galaxy, then?

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

1 person in 1 object of mass destroyed the entire First Order Fleet.

Bullhonky.

You watched the same movie I did? It absolutely did not destroy 'the entire First Order fleet'.

****, it didn't even destroy the one ship it hit. You'll recall that Finn, Rose, and BB-8 still had a nice lengthy fight with Phasma and storm troopers on the ship AFTER the hit. Not to mention Hux wandering up to the throne room with little more than annoyance, and Kylo Ren and he starting the attack on the planet from there.

The fleet was fine. Indeed, the Supremacy seemed like it might even be recoverable. It stopped the attack on the transports, sure - no doubt, the ship is at least temporarily quite crippled, but...not much else.

4 minutes ago, Jiron said:

If it would have been effective military tactics, we would still have Kamikaze fighters. What Honka did was act of heroic desperation to give more time to the transports. I don't think the move was deliberately made to destroy the other ship. Just a pleasent side effect.

She seemed too know exactly what would happen. Same with the faces of the first order crew. Battle of endor would have required one One mannen suicide cruiser. That's the thing too, aperently you can turn, pilot and charge hyperdrive on a large cruiser alone. Why do they even have crew??

2 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Why there aren't kamikaze ships? What makes it a paradox. A contradiction. If there aren't kamikaze ships, it's because it's ineffective. But then it shouldn't have had that effect or, at least, Holdo wouldn't have done it because she would have known it is ineffective!

It is ineffective because you lose a valuable ship and at least a single trained crew in an effort that has only one chance of succeding. This makes much less effective than turbolasers for almost any situation.

If you got nothing left to lose, and would have lost the ship anyway, and there is a chance of a positive outcome where there is none otherwise (which makes the "when diagrams overlap" region very small indeed), then it makes sense to do it- and the effects must be known, since accidents happen even more often than deliberate suicide attacks. This appears to be the case here, at least partially.

No contradiction I can see.

43 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

No, the "You didn't understand it" won't do this time.

But clearly you did not understand it.The movie has many flaws, but what you're grasping at are not.

Holdo has a clever plan. She realizes, faster than all others, that the flag ship is tracked. And that other ships are just endangered by association, nothing else. She is not doing "nothing", that completely misunderstands the movie as if you didn't watch it. And you having to ask what her plan was, then misrepresenting it is proof that you did not understand. She diverts fuel from the Raddus to the transports, refueling all of them and preparing them to move to Crait. They will wait there, in safety, with the Raddus moving on, making one last jump.
The FO will jump after the Raddus, being cocksure that their tracking was still not discovered. And best of all, they will never realize that the ship was empty. In the meantime the Resistance is on crait, with fuelled up ships ready to move on to wherever they want. You, and others, are assuming that the FO has bombers when we've never seen them. They had no corvettes, no interdictors, nothing alike. So why should they have bombers? All we see are the TIE/sf with their missiles.

Finn has not found his courage midway through TFA. He found his empathy and projected that to Rey. That is demonstrated by "Rey" being his first word when he wakes up.
Him running away is again for Rey. But he learns that his first friend is not the only thing worth fighting for.

As for the Force: why do you think that what we saw was not just "light side"? Everything she mentions, warmth and cold, life and death, are grouped together and then contrasted to "something else", which is the dark side.
That does not contradict it - you just misunderstood it.

Generally, one thing many people seem to misunderstand is how this movie strifes to go low tech again, so to speak. The same old conflict of "tiny rebellion fights massive empire" is old.
And we do not get that here. Both sides are tiny now. The Resistance has friends everywhere, while the FO just lost most of its fleet, too. Both sides are now small, and that's a huge change to the OT!
Again: there is a laughable number of ship types, so why do you all expect the FO to be able to use the same methods when they don't have the same means?

@RampancyTW
Poe does not know yet. Only Finn, Holdo and maybe Leia can even realize that. We know he messed up, but clearly many people here also failed to realize it...

6 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

Why do they even have crew??

It was explained before the movie that the Raddus is a ship that's way more automated than usual ships, exactly because of this.

46 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

This movie establishes that jumping to hyperspace thru a group of ships destroys those ships. That is FINE to me. What it isn't fine is that they introduce that fact at this point in the series because there has been hyperspace and wars since before the Old Republic and never before they have shown that it would be so effective as a military tactic. They just chose to add that rule this late in the game because they needed it, and that is cheating, or ***-pulling it if you want the tvtropes term for it.

It was a desperate measure for desperate times. She had no idea how many ships would be destroyed, but she could be pretty sure to win some time for the transports. And just one made it.
That's a huge difference that you conveniently ignore.

Just now, DampfGecko said:

It is ineffective because you lose a valuable ship and at least a single trained crew in an effort that has only one chance of succeding. This makes much less effective than turbolasers for almost any situation.

If you got nothing left to lose, and would have lost the ship anyway, and there is a chance of a positive outcome where there is none otherwise (which makes the "when diagrams overlap" region very small indeed), then it makes sense to do it- and the effects must be known, since accidents happen even more often than deliberate suicide attacks. This appears to be the case here, at least partially.

No contradiction I can see.

Nobody forces you to use a ship made of gold full with MIT scientists and cancer researchers as a kamikaze ship. If hyperraming was a thing, there would be cheap-cheap, automated ramships. You just need mass and a hyperdrive.
That is certainly cheaper than risking thousands of lives and good ships in a turbolaser-and-fighter battle like Skariff, Yavin or Endor.

The fact that those ramming ships don't exist is a hint that hyperraming isn't a thing in Star Wars. And there is the contradiction with TLJ.

It almost completely failed at feeling like Star Wars and showed zero understanding of the universe in addition to all the horrible flaws in it's writing. For all they hate they get the prequals still fundamentally felt like Star Wars and even at their lowest points never matched the cringe factor this movie put out. And that's not even touching the complete lack effort to make characterization consistent with other moviesand even scene to scene or the fact that the most tedious parts dragged on forever to such a degree that you could cut half the length of the movie without losing anything worthwhile or important.

Just realized that there's a thread over here, too! I'll just paste here what I wrote in the off-topic thread after I had seen it at the thursday, 0:00 premiere:

I went to see it at the midnight premiere in Germany with my wife. And I'm not ashamed to say that I'm so very disappointed I could cry. Well, obviously, I'm not gonna, because it is , after all, just a movie. Let me explain one thing right at the start: this is no unreflected hatred, no "Disney sucks" point of view. Actually, I enjoyed both TFA and Rogue One immensely, for what it's worth. I really hoped this to be a deep, emotional Star Wars story. And parts of it were. The scenes with Luke, Rey, Kylo were almost all magnificent. But there was just so much unnecessary 'humor' , if you can call it that. I'm not talking about wisecracks and little quips. I'm talking full-on slapstick, hit-the-audience-with-a-hammer-right-between-the-eyes dumb jokes and sight gags. The worst one reduced General Hux, whom I loved in TFA, to a complete buffoon. And they kept on and on and on humiliating him whenever he was on screen. Why? This guy is a joke now, not a threat. I also didn't dislike the Porgs initially when I first saw one in the trailer. But there is one scene with Chewie, his dinner, and the Porgs which almost had me leaving the theater, it was that bad and forced. I could go on about the humor, because it feels like there are no five minutes that go by without being interrupted by some stupid, completely unneccessary joke. Any tension and emotional investment I felt were completely done away with because of horrible jackassery. There were many moments when I sat there thinking: "Ok, now it picks up, now you got me. You have me on the hook, just reel me in!" Followed by "Oh look, Hux tripped over his own feet. Now THAT'S comedy!" This made it impossible for me to feel anything for the characters or the situation they were in. There was a complete lack of urgency which brings me to the pacing. The whole sequence about Finn and Rose could have been done away with and the movie would have been better for it. This whole sideplot was the lowest point by far and completely took me out of the movie. And the effort to draw me back in was never strong enough. It all felt so... pointless and unremarkable.

Anyway, I'm sure that as I let the experience sink in a little, I'll be able to rememeber a bit more about it. Because there were good, even great scenes. But right now, I'm utterly heartbroken. Which I never thought could be possible after seeing a Star Wars movie for the first time.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

And you having to ask what her plan was, then misrepresenting it is proof that you did not understand. She diverts fuel from the Raddus to the transports, refueling all of them and preparing them to move to Crait. They will wait there, in safety, with the Raddus moving on, making one last jump.
The FO will jump after the Raddus, being cocksure that their tracking was still not discovered. And best of all, they will never realize that the ship was empty. In the meantime the Resistance is on crait, with fuelled up ships ready to move on to wherever they want. You, and others, are assuming that the FO has bombers when we've never seen them. They had no corvettes, no interdictors, nothing alike. So why should they have bombers? All we see are the TIE/sf with their missiles.

That's a huge difference that you conveniently ignore.

We aren't going anywhere here, but let me ask one last time.
I know her plan was to evacuate the ship to the planet with the transports. I understood that perfectly.
Still, that isn't really a good plan, because they were immediately detected by the FO and they started firing at the transports. Of course: they want to kill them, not to chase ghosts. In the worst case, half FO could have chased the cruiser and the other half gone to destroy the transports!
Doesn't that make her not especially brilliant? It would have been cleverer to divide the crew between the different logistic ships and each jump in a different direction. Some would have been pursued, but other would have had a chance. At least it sounds better than flying in disarmed transports to an abandoned base under the turbolaser fire of the entire First Order fleet.

And the FO didn't even need bombers. Their TIE/SF were more than enough to heavily damage the cruiser. Why didn't they keep on doing that?

Geez Azrapse I'm getting the feeling you really, really, really, really, really, really vehemently despise this movie.

1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

Someone says "Haters gonna hate", you say "Bingo".
Either you were playing the forum game of filling up a bingo card with stuff people say in the forums, or you were agreeing with this person.
If you were playing the bingo game, then I apologize and admit my misunderstanding, good sir.

(Somehow, I have the feeling that you weren't playing the bingo game, though)

Yeah I was saying bingo at how luke left them lashing out at nothing. But... I'm not gonna try to reason with you. Half this thread's posts are you. Like, chill.

3 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Geez Azrapse I'm getting the feeling you really, really, really, really, really, really vehemently despise this movie.

Yeah I was saying bingo at how luke left them lashing out at nothing. But... I'm not gonna try to reason with you. Half this thread's posts are you. Like, chill.

That's because I'm heartbroken.
But I will listen to you and I will stop. No sarcasm.

4 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Still, that isn't really a good plan, because they were immediately detected by the FO and they started firing at the transports.

No they weren't, the haxx0r bloke found them and sold them out. The FO was none the wiser otherwise.

4 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

because they were immediately detected by the FO and they started firing at the transports.

But they were not immediately detected by the FO. They were betrayed by DelToro who informed the FO because the FO did not realize it.

Seriously, you really really did not get that part, so maybe you should not be that loud with such ignorance

31 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But clearly you did not understand it.The movie has many flaws, but what you're grasping at are not.

Holdo has a clever plan. She realizes, faster than all others, that the flag ship is tracked. And that other ships are just endangered by association, nothing else. She is not doing "nothing", that completely misunderstands the movie as if you didn't watch it. And you having to ask what her plan was, then misrepresenting it is proof that you did not understand. She diverts fuel from the Raddus to the transports, refueling all of them and preparing them to move to Crait. They will wait there, in safety, with the Raddus moving on, making one last jump.
The FO will jump after the Raddus, being cocksure that their tracking was still not discovered. And best of all, they will never realize that the ship was empty. In the meantime the Resistance is on crait, with fuelled up ships ready to move on to wherever they want. You, and others, are assuming that the FO has bombers when we've never seen them. They had no corvettes, no interdictors, nothing alike. So why should they have bombers? All we see are the TIE/sf with their missiles.

Finn has not found his courage midway through TFA. He found his empathy and projected that to Rey. That is demonstrated by "Rey" being his first word when he wakes up.
Him running away is again for Rey. But he learns that his first friend is not the only thing worth fighting for.

As for the Force: why do you think that what we saw was not just "light side"? Everything she mentions, warmth and cold, life and death, are grouped together and then contrasted to "something else", which is the dark side.
That does not contradict it - you just misunderstood it.

Generally, one thing many people seem to misunderstand is how this movie strifes to go low tech again, so to speak. The same old conflict of "tiny rebellion fights massive empire" is old.
And we do not get that here. Both sides are tiny now. The Resistance has friends everywhere, while the FO just lost most of its fleet, too. Both sides are now small, and that's a huge change to the OT!
Again: there is a laughable number of ship types, so why do you all expect the FO to be able to use the same methods when they don't have the same means?

@RampancyTW
Poe does not know yet. Only Finn, Holdo and maybe Leia can even realize that. We know he messed up, but clearly many people here also failed to realize it...

It was explained before the movie that the Raddus is a ship that's way more automated than usual ships, exactly because of this.

It was a desperate measure for desperate times. She had no idea how many ships would be destroyed, but she could be pretty sure to win some time for the transports. And just one made it.
That's a huge difference that you conveniently ignore.

Wait when did they say raddus ess more automated? Before the movie as in TFA or in a Book. IF it's not in the movie then it doesn't count ffs

1 minute ago, jocke01 said:

Wait when did they say raddus ess more automated? Before the movie as in TFA or in a Book. IF it's not in the movie then it doesn't count ffs

In a book iirc. Why does that not count? Clearly that‘s such an obscure question that is completely irrelevant to most viewers that it has no place in the movie?

19 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But they were not immediately detected by the FO. They were betrayed by DelToro who informed the FO because the FO did not realize it.

Seriously, you really really did not get that part, so maybe you should not be that loud with such ignorance

Of all the multitude of issues in this movie why is this the one people are making their stand on?

1 minute ago, Princezilla said:

Of all the multitude of issues in this movie why is this the one people are making their stand on?

I also do not understand. There are enough problems with the movie. Snoke, Spacewalk, Timeframe, and many more.

Weaponized flagships or misunderstood plans are not in the same category