50 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

Remember, Rey is incredibly powerful in the force because she is the balance to Kylo Ren. Just as Luke was the balance to Vader, and the whole freakin jedi order was balanced to Palpatine. So yes, she is a Mary Sue, but they admit she is in the movie because of how the force wants to be balanced.

She is also a very good fighter, we saw that on Jakku when she was defending herself and BB8.

I understand her being incredibly powerful. That's not what I'm complaining about. I'm complaining about the inconsistencies. As I said, other incredibly powerful characters (Luke, Anakin, and Ezra) still required years of training to do some of the stuff we see Rey do with no training whatsoever. Raw power should not be equal to ability to use said power. That's what I fundamentally dislike about Rey. She's getting all these abilities handed to her on a silver platter, while other characters who are arguably more powerful had to work hard for years to get where Rey is now, after only knowing of the Force for a week and doing no training whatsoever.

1 hour ago, DANE1026 said:

I'm pretty sure it was a political statement like many other topics in the film. Some obvious some subtle, but your brain knows. Milking scene = breast feeding in public... therefore...we should not be offended, it was natural.

26 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

wouldn't that have been Dooku vs Obi Wan and Anakain with Yoda saving the day?

Instead we got Vader turning on Palp...

If we need to downsize the FO to make this an achievable fight, we’ve got plenty of pretext for a Knights of Ren and some loyal Fleet/Trooper assets vs Hux and the FO fight/civil war... which could both give the Resistance room to regain a footing and give Kylo and Rey a possible temporary alliance... again.

1 hour ago, Wiredin said:

he's right tho. breastfeeding is looked down upon so heavily in our society. It's pathetic really.

Feel free to speak for your society, it's a non issue in mine. It is bewildering that this is even a topic at all, and downright alien that it even gets political …

2 hours ago, DANE1026 said:

I'm pretty sure it was a political statement like many other topics in the film. Some obvious some subtle, but your brain knows. Milking scene = breast feeding in public... therefore...we should not be offended, it was natural.

Droid please. It was a joke and a throwback to blue milk from Rogue One/ANH. nothing more.

War profiteering however.... was touched upon and will be explored more in 9, maybe.

2 hours ago, KelRiever said:

Sometimes people want to see a fight, even if they know the main characters aren't going to die.

Not to say if they might die, that just doesn't throw a whole 'nother dimension of awesome into it. But I don't think it is a prerequisite for a good fight.

Me, I've been waiting for the red suits to show me why they're so important, since Return of the Jedi. Yoda, also makes instant work of them in the prequels. That's Yoda, of course, but it's high time someone showed why wearing a red armored suit and standing next to the Emperor matters more than decoration.

If anything, that fight with Rei/Kylo shows exactly that and that's why it's important as far as I'm concerned. And do they fight way better than your average Stormtrooper. H E L L yes they do! Also while showing how powerful Rei/Kylo are and yet they are still not Yoda's or Palpatines.

People are probably going to get tired of me saying just how much I like The Last Jedi.

White the fight was cool it came att the moment were the whole kylo Rey buildup was gonna pay off, but se had too sit through that fight first. I wanted it to end so we could ser the resolution off that.

Why did the guards attack kylo, it could just as well been Rey who did it. It was her saber after all. Maybe they are just sexist, or Read the script

1 hour ago, defkhan1 said:

Hah, guess we're looking for different things in a fight. I liked the TLJ and OT fights because they were so visceral. There's a constant struggle, the participants get slashed and punched and kicked, they're emotional. I can also understand and appreciate a samurai-esque fight where it's all over in one stroke. Guess my problem with the prequel fights is that they dragged on too long to make that kind of impact.

If you get emotional in a fight, you die. Better to be elegant.

Seriously, the best fight scene ever isn't even Star Wars:

1 hour ago, kris40k said:

OMG, about the walrus-camel.

All that was, was a quick explanation on how Luke survives on this little rock in what is an alien and possibly salt ocean. He gets potable water via milking wildlife and he spear fishes for meat.

Its not a political statement.

Here's our sea cow:

At least Luke's works as advertised

34 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

who are arguably more powerful had to work hard for years to get where Rey is now, after only knowing of the Force for a week and doing no training whatsoever.

Nope, arguable Kylo Ren and Rey are the most powerful force users in the last 900 years. Topping apparently even Palpy who gets relegated to a 4th place by Snoke.
And one of the possible reasons for this might be the jedi purge.

The rule of two is there for a reason, Luke is saying himself that jedi were using a power that did not really belong to them, implying that this power is not an unlimited power source, but rather is shared with the whole galaxy. Reducing the active force users from tens of thousands down to just a literal handfull might do funny things with the force.

Now as counterpoint to that interpretation we have broom kid and most likely tens of thousand other kids discovering their force powers, almost like there has been some sort of awakening in the force. It will be interesting to see if Rey and Kylo are getting weaker in the next one IF we see all those kids exploring their powers. But lets not get to far into fan theory terrain, because that roads leads only to disappointment. Well unless you are guessing it right. ;-)

25 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Feel free to speak for your society, it's a non issue in mine. It is bewildering that this is even a topic at all, and downright alien that it even gets political …

haha, my final say on it, I agree with you, it's downright silly that it is an issue. But my wife and I were at a ballgame in the spring and sitting next to another couple, the lady was breast feeding. No biggie, we cared not. But the person infront of them went and complained to an usher because it is "disgusting". I asked her if that happened often, and she told me she breast feeds in public all the time and constantly gets ridiculed for it. There have been multiple news stories about it too... I guess us Canadians aren't as tolerant as the world thinks...

31 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

If you get emotional in a fight, you die. Better to be elegant.

But elegant in the sense of italian sword fighting is making something complicated and efficient look easy. ;-)
The prequel fights have elegant acrobats and impractical sword fighting which is based on rule of cool, which makes you maybe even quicker dead than getting emotional and is both fine from a movie making perspective.

Neither style is practical. And you of all people should know how quickly a sword fight is over, even if it might be over quickly in an elegant way. ( I hate it when I get just stabbed by a counterthrust while my opponent just steps out of my line, elegant and quick)

But the prequels get certainly tons of bonus points for having all those different styles ... it's a shame that they did not use something beautiful, elegant and geometrical like Dardi/bolognese school as base for form III, because Soresu really is the one form in the movies, which I really don't like. And naturally it is the form we see in that last duel between Obi-Wan and Ani.

2 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

On the whole, I enjoyed the movie. Some of the scenes were fantastic. Luke's story was great, Kylo Ren's development was well done (especially when he tricked Snoke), the cinematography was beautiful, the fight choreography was arguably the best in all of Star Wars, and John Williams killed it with the score.

And with all that said, I do have one major complaint. Honestly, after reading ten pages of this thread, I'm kinda shocked this complaint hadn't come up sooner: Rey is more of a Mary Sue than ever before. And I had been really, really hoping to like Rey in this movie, too!

So, let's break this down. In TFA, Rey's first display of conscious use of the Force was a mind trick. This immediately began bugging me, as in both canon and legends, the mind trick is supposed to take a ton of training. In canon, we've seen Clone Wars Obi-Wan and Ahsoka struggle to use it, and we've seen both Luke and Ezra (both described as innately gifted with the Force) fail the first time or two that they tried it. Yet Rey does it no problem, hours after learning that the Force is real, and with no training. Sure, whatever. We know some Force users are innately good at certain things. Luke and Anakin at piloting, Ezra at bonding with others, ect. Maybe Rey will turn out innately skilled at mental stuff?

Then we see Rey pull Luke's lightsaber to her. Fine, whatever. No more impressive than when Luke did it in the wampa's cave in ESB.

Now in this movie, taking place immediately after the last one, Rey is still untrained. Luke doesn't teach her a thing about using the Force. Yet at the end, she's able to go toe-to-toe wirh several Praetorian Guards, warriors capable of nearly killing Kylo Ren (who has had years of training under both Luke and Snoke), and she's able to lift literally tons of rocks, a feat that even The Clone Wars' version of Anakin failed to do, and he was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi possible, having literally been born from the Force.

On top of that, Yoda's statement about Rey already knowing everything she needs to about being a Jedi infuriated me. Her actions in no way support Yoda's claim. Early on, the first time she reached out into the Force, she felt the dark side and immediately gave herself over to it. Luke even commented on her lack of hesitation to just hand herself to the dark side. Then she began having telepathic conversations with a murderer who she saw kill his own father in front of her, and the last time she met him, he slashed her friend's back and nearly killed her. Yet she for some unknown reason decides to have casual conversations with him instead of telling Luke. Then later she quite literally dives headfirst into the dark side. Then she actually attacks Luke, before running away to team up with the mass murderer. And yet Yoda talks about her as if she's a fully trained Jedi? Luke didn't even teach her a thing about what it is to be a Jedi! And if anything, her actions are consistent with those if a Sith! Why does Yoda act like she's already a Jedi?!

I need a reason for her to be this good with everything as well. In my head she has object clairsentience on a subconscious level. So when she touches an object (like the lightsaber) she can pick up it's "memory". So she can remember how to fly the Falcon through its memory. Thats all I have ... But like you I need a reason why she is this great at everything.

1 hour ago, LagJanson said:

@SEApocalypse - I'm not even arguing your side is wrong. I enjoyed the movie, and accept it.

Neither am I 100% sure if I am right or not. It's not important for the plot. It is just a statement about the first order taken over quickly after their loss of starkiller base AND their victory over the new republic.
Considering how divided the senate had been described in the books, they might just have wiped out one faction of it, while the first order supporters were absent from session (mostly) and took over the senate while first order star destroyers arrived at critical systems to secure the new order, effectively conquering the whole new republic by annexion.

Oof.

49 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Seriously, the best fight scene ever isn't even Star Wars:

You meant this one (at least if it was to be from the matrix) maybe a worse movie, but better fight scene.

1 hour ago, Underachiever599 said:

I understand her being incredibly powerful. That's not what I'm complaining about. I'm complaining about the inconsistencies. As I said, other incredibly powerful characters (Luke, Anakin, and Ezra) still required years of training to do some of the stuff we see Rey do with no training whatsoever. Raw power should not be equal to ability to use said power. That's what I fundamentally dislike about Rey. She's getting all these abilities handed to her on a silver platter, while other characters who are arguably more powerful had to work hard for years to get where Rey is now, after only knowing of the Force for a week and doing no training whatsoever.

Using the force to blow up the death star a couple days after learning of the force doesn't qualify?

7 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Using the force to blow up the death star a couple days after learning of the force doesn't qualify?

Just like bulls eyeing a womp rat back home. (Just ignore the extremely power space wizard's ghost whispering in his ear.)

7 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Using the force to blow up the death star a couple days after learning of the force doesn't qualify?

Thats basically using the force to enhance skills he already had some form of (flying and shooting stuff). Pretty sure Rey hadn't spent her free time telekinetically lifting rocks on Jakku

can we talk for a second how cute Tallie is? Cute girl in a sexy A-Wing? seriously... she didn't deserve to die!

5 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

Just like bulls eyeing a womp rat back home. (Just ignore the extremely power space wizard's ghost whispering in his ear.)

Pufff you guys got this scene complettely wrong anyway

R2-D2 was guiding that torpedo into its mark. Space magic, yeah right.

5 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Thats basically using the force to enhance skills he already had some form of (flying and shooting stuff). Pretty sure Rey hadn't spent her free time telekinetically lifting rocks on Jakku

What makes you so sure of that? I mean babies can do that. George Lucas approved and all

1 hour ago, Jadotch said:

I need a reason for her to be this good with everything as well. In my head she has object clairsentience on a subconscious level. So when she touches an object (like the lightsaber) she can pick up it's "memory". So she can remember how to fly the Falcon through its memory. Thats all I have ... But like you I need a reason why she is this great at everything.

You know, it could just be a rubbish film. You don't have to jump to mental hoops to come up with believable head-canon.

poor films with crappy writing are on the silver screen all the time.

I want to preface this that I studied film making and scriptwriting in university and its my career, that doesn't mean I know better or i'm smarter then other people at all, it simply means the lens in which I watch films is different because of my education.

The point of me writing this is to give those who may hate the film some insight on why someone who is trained in this field loves this movie. I speak for myself and myself alone.

~

So i've re-watched the Force Awakens and on the same day went to view the Last Jedi a second time now.

I remember how the Force Awakens mystified me the first viewing before I started to see its cracks that were exposed entirely after a second viewing, so I stayed open to the possibility that the Last Jedi on a second go round is not as good as I thought.

Nope. I realized how incredible a movie the Last Jedi really is, and how awful and clumsily written the Force Awakens seems in direct comparison. People complain that Rian Johnson screwed up what JJ set up, which he actually didnt (JJ never had a story beyond TFA just loose ends for the next director), but The Force Awakens is so simplistic Rian had to shake a lot of things up to keep the trilogy from being a rehash of the OT, which is is really what JJ set up.

I remember understanding the whole story of the Force Awakens, all the symbolism, all the stuff in the background in two viewings, and thats not good writing or film making in the Star Wars tradition. When I go and re-watch A New Hope I still notice new things all the time from visuals to story that I somehow missed even after a thousand viewings, thats incredible film making, not so with TFA. I'm still trying to figure out everything about the Last Jedi and I think it may take years and ultimately I think the Last Jedi will be vindicated just as The Force Awakens has diminished in popularity over the last two years.

~

Rian Johnson has created perhaps the most complex Star Wars movie ever with The Last Jedi, which is filled with incredible depth and beautiful writing throughout. The acting is massively improved with Deisy Ridley and Carrie Fisher allowed to show more personality and Mark Hammil delivering one of his best performances.

John William's score is phenomenal. Go listen to it (especially the Canto Bight part), every theme from the Force Awakens (a film unjustly maligned for its score) is brought back with new vigor and woven perfectly into Johnson's story and the new tracks are vividly distinct.

The script is one of the most solid and succinct i've seen in a film in a long time with every part of the film serving a purpose to either move the story forward or to distinctly develop or indicate a character's...well character. That's the first thing you learn in script writing, every part of a script needs to matter, superfluous junk serves to destroy the flow of a film. Superfluous scenes are one of the fundamental flaws of the prequels (and two dimensional writing yowza).

~

EDIT: After I initially wrote this I came across an article that I entirely agree with, especially in terms of what Rian Johnson had to work with what JJ left him.

The Force Belongs to Us: The Last Jedi's Beautiful Refocusing of Star Wars

3 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Nope, arguable Kylo Ren and Rey are the most powerful force users in the last 900 years. Topping apparently even Palpy who gets relegated to a 4th place by Snoke.
And one of the possible reasons for this might be the jedi purge.

The rule of two is there for a reason, Luke is saying himself that jedi were using a power that did not really belong to them, implying that this power is not an unlimited power source, but rather is shared with the whole galaxy. Reducing the active force users from tens of thousands down to just a literal handfull might do funny things with the force.

Now as counterpoint to that interpretation we have broom kid and most likely tens of thousand other kids discovering their force powers, almost like there has been some sort of awakening in the force. It will be interesting to see if Rey and Kylo are getting weaker in the next one IF we see all those kids exploring their powers. But lets not get to far into fan theory terrain, because that roads leads only to disappointment. Well unless you are guessing it right. ;-)

Even if it's true that Kylo Ren and Rey are more powerful than Luke and Anakin (which, quite frankly, I just don't buy into. Anakin was made of the Force!) we're still just talking raw power. And as I said, simply having raw power in Star Wars does not translate to being able to use it. As Yoda told us, being a Jedi requires the most serious of minds, the deepest of commitments. Rey flat out should not be as good as she is. Period. Full stop.

Also, nobody else has addressed my query regarding why Yoda believes Rey is basically already a Jedi? Despite all of her actions being decidedly dark sider-ish? Seriously! She literally dove head first into the dark side, and also attacked Luke! How is sbe Jedi material?!

53 minutes ago, Forresto said:

...

Would you mind giving some examples for the positives you mentioned? Particularly in regard to the script, the writing and the depth.

Not trying to be a smartass here, but it would be interesting to get some more insight from someone who's in the business.