21 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

It seem to me more like that the guys who liked TFA and RO are not liking this one, while those who didn't get warm with TFA, really like this one.

It does seem to be falling out that way, doesn't it?

8 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

I guess ecstasy-fuelled raves count as dancing..?

Sure. Pick the dorkiest 2 seconds in a 5 minute fight.

7 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Thank you for pointing this out.
BTW, you do it italian?

Not sure what you mean, but I did in fact take an 8 week class a Italian longsword (or hand-and-a-half sword if you prefer) training.

It was a hoot. It is also great to seen Viggo using that style as Aragorn.

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Sure. Pick the dorkiest 2 seconds in a 5 minute fight.

Plenty more where that came from, just not as many gifs. It was a laughable 'fight' from start to finish, but it's a nice summary of why it's so bad.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Agreed. They were the one joke that was meant to be a joke, as opposed to a dramatic build-up that was turned into a joke because nobody had a good answer.=

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Not sure what you mean, but I did in fact take an 8 week class a Italian longsword (or hand-and-a-half sword if you prefer) training.

I meant it exactly that way. Nice to see some italian longsword instead of the omni-present german school.
Though not a super fan of Fiore himself. Marozzo, Manciolino & Anonimo Bolognese for me. And side-swords instead of spadone.

3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I'm not sure that accounts for the one that were kicking Luke's lightsabre about, or the ones shaming Chewie, or the ones in the Falcon... are Pinewood Studios known for a resident puffin population?

On 12/15/2017 at 11:34 AM, Wiredin said:

I think Poe's arc was the best arc aside from Kylo. I got so much more respect for Kylo now that he's gone off the deep end.

Oh....

can we talk about the elephant giraffe in the room. wTF was with the milking? seriously....

and please, no more deus-ex BB8.

I'm pretty sure it was a political statement like many other topics in the film. Some obvious some subtle, but your brain knows. Milking scene = breast feeding in public... therefore...we should not be offended, it was natural.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Did you go for a pee during the Rey/Kylo versus red guards fight or something?

I found the Porgs to be a nice, funny inclusion. I'm glad they are in the movie.

The Praetorian fight was well choreographed, but the OSHA-required Recessed Floor Mounted Human Confetti Maker kinda drug it down for me. I mean, who builds these places?

I think the Finn vs. Kylo vs. Rey fight in TFA is the best in the series so far as it looks like people actually trying to kill each other without any extra BS or dancing thrown in the mix.

14 minutes ago, DANE1026 said:

I'm pretty sure it was a political statement like many other topics in the film. Some obvious some subtle, but your brain knows. Milking scene = breast feeding in public... therefore...we should not be offended, it was natural.

How does a mind wander from this to politics and how is breastfeeding in public even a political discussion anywhere on the planet? So alien … anyway. Thanks for mentioning it, now the complains about the scene feel creepy.

1 hour ago, Sithborg said:

Well, according to Bloodline, a lot of those systems would likely have joined up with the First Order at the first excuse.

Bloodlines did go a long way to explain a lot of TFA and now TLJ. I enjoyed that read. I'll agree that some systems absolutely would have been quick to raise the FO's banner over their capital. Not all of the major systems. The Republic was pretty split down the middle on things to the point of dysfunction. I'm still not buying how quickly the major systems folded when the FO moved in TFA. That's me and my limit of belief of course. More solid facts will sway me further one way or the other, but arguing with what's there right now won't. I don't think there's enough for anything beyond guess work.

5 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Bloodlines did go a long way to explain a lot of TFA and now TLJ. I enjoyed that read. I'll agree that some systems absolutely would have been quick to raise the FO's banner over their capital. Not all of the major systems. The Republic was pretty split down the middle on things to the point of dysfunction. I'm still not buying how quickly the major systems folded when the FO moved in TFA. That's me and my limit of belief of course. More solid facts will sway me further one way or the other, but arguing with what's there right now won't. I don't think there's enough for anything beyond guess work.

Thing is, we don't now exactly what constitutes to major systems or if major systems were the first order supporters in the first place anyway, while the outer rim systems, historical the separatist alliance core supporters are not the resistance friendly faction in the first place, while the rich core worlds … oh, so that was this canto thing all about. The major systems ARE the core worlds, the core worlds ARE controlled by the rich bastards profiting from the oppression of the dirty outer rim masses. (No offense to Chandrila and Alderaan)

So, like, who are these people who think Last Jedi should be removed from cannon?

2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Thing is, we don't now exactly what constitutes to major systems or if major systems were the first order supporters in the first place anyway, while the outer rim systems, historical the separatist alliance core supporters are not the resistance friendly faction in the first place, while the rich core worlds … oh, so that was this canto thing all about. The major systems ARE the core worlds, the core worlds ARE controlled by the rich bastards profiting from the oppression of the dirty outer rim masses. (No offense to Chandrila and Alderaan)

I thought the opening crawl established Major Systems as supporters because they were conquered.

On the whole, I enjoyed the movie. Some of the scenes were fantastic. Luke's story was great, Kylo Ren's development was well done (especially when he tricked Snoke), the cinematography was beautiful, the fight choreography was arguably the best in all of Star Wars, and John Williams killed it with the score.

And with all that said, I do have one major complaint. Honestly, after reading ten pages of this thread, I'm kinda shocked this complaint hadn't come up sooner: Rey is more of a Mary Sue than ever before. And I had been really, really hoping to like Rey in this movie, too!

So, let's break this down. In TFA, Rey's first display of conscious use of the Force was a mind trick. This immediately began bugging me, as in both canon and legends, the mind trick is supposed to take a ton of training. In canon, we've seen Clone Wars Obi-Wan and Ahsoka struggle to use it, and we've seen both Luke and Ezra (both described as innately gifted with the Force) fail the first time or two that they tried it. Yet Rey does it no problem, hours after learning that the Force is real, and with no training. Sure, whatever. We know some Force users are innately good at certain things. Luke and Anakin at piloting, Ezra at bonding with others, ect. Maybe Rey will turn out innately skilled at mental stuff?

Then we see Rey pull Luke's lightsaber to her. Fine, whatever. No more impressive than when Luke did it in the wampa's cave in ESB.

Now in this movie, taking place immediately after the last one, Rey is still untrained. Luke doesn't teach her a thing about using the Force. Yet at the end, she's able to go toe-to-toe wirh several Praetorian Guards, warriors capable of nearly killing Kylo Ren (who has had years of training under both Luke and Snoke), and she's able to lift literally tons of rocks, a feat that even The Clone Wars' version of Anakin failed to do, and he was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi possible, having literally been born from the Force.

On top of that, Yoda's statement about Rey already knowing everything she needs to about being a Jedi infuriated me. Her actions in no way support Yoda's claim. Early on, the first time she reached out into the Force, she felt the dark side and immediately gave herself over to it. Luke even commented on her lack of hesitation to just hand herself to the dark side. Then she began having telepathic conversations with a murderer who she saw kill his own father in front of her, and the last time she met him, he slashed her friend's back and nearly killed her. Yet she for some unknown reason decides to have casual conversations with him instead of telling Luke. Then later she quite literally dives headfirst into the dark side. Then she actually attacks Luke, before running away to team up with the mass murderer. And yet Yoda talks about her as if she's a fully trained Jedi? Luke didn't even teach her a thing about what it is to be a Jedi! And if anything, her actions are consistent with those if a Sith! Why does Yoda act like she's already a Jedi?!

Anyway, that's my biggest gripe with the movie. Sure, some of the humor was poorly timed and out of place. Sure, the pacing was off, and the movie didn't need to be as long as it was. Sure, Holdo should have told Poe her plan from the start so he wouldn't run off and do something that put them all at risk. Sure, Hux was reduced to a lame joke of a character. And sure, Snoke was made totally irrelevant without us learning a single thing about him. But for me, none of those flaws ruined the movie. I still greatly enjoyed my time in the theater, the visuals were breathtaking, and I'll definitely be going to see it a second or third time. I just wish they handled Rey better instead if doubling down on the Mary Sue aspect. It would have made way more sense if she actually did fall completely to the dark side and join up with Kylo Ren, given her actions leading up to that moment.

31 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

How does a mind wander from this to politics and how is breastfeeding in public even a political discussion anywhere on the planet? So alien … anyway. Thanks for mentioning it, now the complains about the scene feel creepy.

he's right tho. breastfeeding is looked down upon so heavily in our society. It's pathetic really.

That's interesting: A sentiment analysis of star wars fans on social media in the past 2 years

6 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

On the whole, I enjoyed the movie. Some of the scenes were fantastic. Luke's story was great, Kylo Ren's development was well done (especially when he tricked Snoke), the cinematography was beautiful, the fight choreography was arguably the best in all of Star Wars, and John Williams killed it with the score.

And with all that said, I do have one major complaint. Honestly, after reading ten pages of this thread, I'm kinda shocked this complaint hadn't come up sooner: Rey is more of a Mary Sue than ever before. And I had been really, really hoping to like Rey in this movie, too!

So, let's break this down. In TFA, Rey's first display of conscious use of the Force was a mind trick. This immediately began bugging me, as in both canon and legends, the mind trick is supposed to take a ton of training. In canon, we've seen Clone Wars Obi-Wan and Ahsoka struggle to use it, and we've seen both Luke and Ezra (both described as innately gifted with the Force) fail the first time or two that they tried it. Yet Rey does it no problem, hours after learning that the Force is real, and with no training. Sure, whatever. We know some Force users are innately good at certain things. Luke and Anakin at piloting, Ezra at bonding with others, ect. Maybe Rey will turn out innately skilled at mental stuff?

Then we see Rey pull Luke's lightsaber to her. Fine, whatever. No more impressive than when Luke did it in the wampa's cave in ESB.

Now in this movie, taking place immediately after the last one, Rey is still untrained. Luke doesn't teach her a thing about using the Force. Yet at the end, she's able to go toe-to-toe wirh several Praetorian Guards, warriors capable of nearly killing Kylo Ren (who has had years of training under both Luke and Snoke), and she's able to lift literally tons of rocks, a feat that even The Clone Wars' version of Anakin failed to do, and he was supposed to be the most powerful Jedi possible, having literally been born from the Force.

Remember, Rey is incredibly powerful in the force because she is the balance to Kylo Ren. Just as Luke was the balance to Vader, and the whole freakin jedi order was balanced to Palpatine. So yes, she is a Mary Sue, but they admit she is in the movie because of how the force wants to be balanced.

She is also a very good fighter, we saw that on Jakku when she was defending herself and BB8.

3 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

Remember, Rey is incredibly powerful in the force because she is the balance to Kylo Ren. Just as Luke was the balance to Vader, and the whole freakin jedi order was balanced to Palpatine. So yes, she is a Mary Sue, but they admit she is in the movie because of how the force wants to be balanced.

Which...is also not a very good plot point IMO. Oh, we'll just make a super-powered character to balance out the bad guy.

3 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

She is also a very good fighter, we saw that on Jakku when she was defending herself and BB8.

Being able to fight with a staff doesn't automatically make you a good swordfighter.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Which...is also not a very good plot point IMO. Oh, we'll just make a super-powered character to balance out the bad guy.

Being able to fight with a staff doesn't automatically make you a good swordfighter.

funny, everything you said is true.

OMG, about the walrus-camel.

All that was, was a quick explanation on how Luke survives on this little rock in what is an alien and possibly salt ocean. He gets potable water via milking wildlife and he spear fishes for meat.

Its not a political statement.

7 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Which...is also not a very good plot point IMO. Oh, we'll just make a super-powered character to balance out the bad guy.

Being able to fight with a staff doesn't automatically make you a good swordfighter.

Perhaps not, but if we are seeing the Force as it's own entity take more direct action within the galaxy then it does make sense. Sort of like the Force was previously a more passive thing, but now it's more directly active. Perhaps even being sentient in and of itself.

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

Ah, the beauty of Fiore. Two master swordsmen should look like they are dancing.

TLJ throne room was more like "hack til it's over."

Hah, guess we're looking for different things in a fight. I liked the TLJ and OT fights because they were so visceral. There's a constant struggle, the participants get slashed and punched and kicked, they're emotional. I can also understand and appreciate a samurai-esque fight where it's all over in one stroke. Guess my problem with the prequel fights is that they dragged on too long to make that kind of impact.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why does every body think that fight was so great??

Kylo + Rey vs Snoke would have been soo much better. And perhaps an extra Luke (the real one) comming in to save the day. Now that would have been awesome.

37 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Thing is, we don't now exactly what constitutes to major systems or if major systems were the first order supporters in the first place anyway, while the outer rim systems, historical the separatist alliance core supporters are not the resistance friendly faction in the first place, while the rich core worlds … oh, so that was this canto thing all about. The major systems ARE the core worlds, the core worlds ARE controlled by the rich bastards profiting from the oppression of the dirty outer rim masses. (No offense to Chandrila and Alderaan)

Yes, but no. Again, we know there are the usual players and profiteers and romancers of the past... We also know there's an awful lot of systems. We do not know how deep this went but we know it didn't go so deep to sway the entirety of the Republic or even a controlling majority. So we're stuck trying to put random pieces together not even sure they are all part of the same puzzle.

It is what it is, really. The movies didn't have to explain everything. I don't like how quickly the FO has been able to advance, but that doesn't mean I'll stay there should FACTS be shown. Not interpretations of the pieces we have. I choose not to make my decision on what we have now. Give me printed text (books) or lines I missed in the movie (hey, I've only seen it once) but don't give me interpretations.

@SEApocalypse - I'm not even arguing your side is wrong. I enjoyed the movie, and accept it. I don't like what they did there and it's actually one of the bigger things to me beyond all else, including the Leia scene in space (meh - I didn't mind it so much - it's Star Wars) and the casino scenes. I'm really more of a moderate player in all this.

15 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Kylo + Rey vs Snoke would have been soo much better. And perhaps an extra Luke (the real one) comming in to save the day. Now that would have been awesome.

wouldn't that have been Dooku vs Obi Wan and Anakain with Yoda saving the day?

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

Yep, just like the Transformers movies. They keep getting worst and worst but no change is made because they get the job done. The job being making $$$ more than satisfying the audience.

Indeed, Mark Hamill has criticized modern film franchises like Transformers as being "cinema of bewilderment." Just a bunch of fast-flashy empty nonsense happening on the screen without much in the way of purpose or emotion or sensible context. And we know how Mark Hamill feels about the new trilogy... heh:

"I had to say, 'Look Rian, I fundamentally disagree with every decision you've made about my character...'" -MH