2 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

I am not surprised that the internet will hate this. It goes against all fan expectations.

That's why I love it.

This is the ultimate, "Subversion of Expectation" film, especially for Star Wars.

I love what they did with Snoke. I just love it.

I just feel like if Luke simply went to sleep..... then everything would be SO much better

6 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

I just feel like if Luke simply went to sleep..... then everything would be SO much better

No... The finality of his actions were... They were necessary. They needed to be final, for him to have such weight. But we have seen that death is not the end.

I feel like they didn't need to be that final though. Like - why couldn't he have simply been exhausted and just taken a nap?

I'll get over it eventually. I just feel sad. Deeply sad.

Is that a bad thing?

21 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

I feel like they didn't need to be that final though. Like - why couldn't he have simply been exhausted and just taken a nap?

I'll get over it eventually. I just feel sad. Deeply sad.

Is that a bad thing?

Giving yourself to the force so fully is something we've never seen before. He needed to let Kylo Ren have the moment he thought he wanted.

Now?

Now we get to see how he copes with that. Because while he gave it, he also gave him nothing he wanted. He will never have that chance to kill Luke that he wanted. Now, as the Supreme Leader of The First Order... He has to figure out where to go next.

Better than TPM & AOTC, on par with ROTJ, ROTS, TFA.

I just saw it, and I'm with @Ajax Romano, @Odanan, and @Captain Lackwit, I'm really struggling to think of why I don't love this movie!

It did all the things I wanted:

Edit: Warning, massive spoilers!

Also, what this means for X-Wing:

That little shuttle (you know, the one that looks like a GUNBOAT that someone cut the big wings off of) might be coming soon. It seems fun.

A-Wings didn't actually do much.

This might be a good movie for a campaign pack, with one of the Resistance transports (no, not the ugly one from Episode VII, the one that looks like a little GR-75).

Can we all agree that Poe should be worth like 300 points just by himself? And his ability should be like "when attacking or defending, roll ten additional dice." That first scene might actually be my favorite, with Poe slow-rolling up towards a Dreadnought while charging that big engine and trolling Hux with that phone call! Hilarious. Star Wars is meant to be fun like that.

I don't have a opinion

.

1 hour ago, kyten44 said:

fixed that for ya.

So you are comparing Boba Fett to Snoke? One has total like 3 lines in the OT and is a total background character. The other is the main villain in the sequel trilogy. Okay...

1 hour ago, Crabbok said:

I feel like they didn't need to be that final though. Like - why couldn't he have simply been exhausted and just taken a nap?

I'll get over it eventually. I just feel sad. Deeply sad.

Is that a bad thing?

I was depressed that Luke wasn't dead the whole time actually. That's always been kinda what I thought about Obi Wan in Episode IV, and that's why he didn't really care when Vader cut him down. I think it would have been really cool if at the end Luke somehow let Kylo know that he'd been a ghost the whole time. That would've been cool.

But yeah, it's too bad Chewie and the droids are going to be the last ones left from the original trilogy. Luke was always my favorite character.

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

That's why I love it.

This is the ultimate, "Subversion of Expectation" film, especially for Star Wars.

You are such a contradicting person, aren't you?

You were complaining the other day about the Rebels destroying some star destroyers by ramming them with a ship with experimental technology and calling it an aberration.
Now you love the movie that destroys all space battles in Star Wars by doing exactly the same thing only without any experimental technology.

So you can destroy an entire fleet of star destroyers an a 60 km one with a single ship thrown at them?
Why don't they do that with the Trade Federation droid control ship in Episode I?
Why don't they do that in the Battle of Coruscant in Episode III?
Why don't they do that in the Battle of Yavin in Episode IV?
Why don't they do that with the Executor in Episode V?
Why don't they do that in the Battle of Endor in Episode VI?
Why don't they do that with the power regulator or whatever in Episode VII?

Actually... why don't they just move everyone to the frigates and do the same thing in this very Episode VIII, only 2 hours earlier in the movie, if it was always a possibility!?

This movie is ridiculous. It contradicts the whole Star Wars that came before it, making it all feel stupid and pointless.

You clearly have chosen some kind of side to defend to death, and will call everyone else that disagrees with you a hater.
You are calling people that have loved Star Wars for 40 years "haters" just because they happen to dislike a movie that is full of plot holes, empty characters, unnecessary detours, subplots and dead-ends, and that ultimately takes a good amount of time to undo, contradict, and destroy so many things that have been there as fundamental construction blocks of the whole Star Wars universe.

"This is how Star Wars dies, with a thunderous applause"

13 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Unless she was afraid of a traitor. Deception by higher ups not being shared with everyone is pretty common. E.g. General Mattis went pretty off-script in the thrust to Bagdad in 2003, and the common soldier had no clue what the **** they were doing. There are many examples like this. The whole Casino subplot partially serves to illustrate how clever she was, and how stupid Poe, Finn and Rose are in not trusting her.

You just made me realize how damaging to the Resistance the entire Canto Bight suplot was. Not only did Poe, Finn, and Rose fail in destroying the tracking device, but they're also inadvertantly responsible for foiling Holdo's plan to hide the Resistance on Crait. If they never went on that mission, they never would have brought back del Toro's character, who never would have told the FO about the transports headed to Crait. There are MANY Resistance deaths on their hands now.

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

That's why I love it.

This is the ultimate, "Subversion of Expectation" film, especially for Star Wars.

This sentence has so much juice that I need to quote it twice!

So if I you go to watch a new The Lords of the Rings movie and in it there comes this stuff:

• Everone uses magic, even hobbits.
• Sauron is actually nobody. After 5 hours of story, Saruman kills him in the middle of a sentence.
• The One Ring is full of power and evil? Bah. There is also The Another Ring that is full of power and good that counters it. Frodo has it and Gollum has the other one.
• There is a 2 hours subplot of Gimli, Pippin and Bilbo travelling to the Far Harad. They achieve nothing and come back empty handed.
• The big battle consists on the good guys Sunday walking away from the bad guys. The bad guys used cavalry and flying monsters before in the movie. But they don't consider using them again for some reason.
• At the end of the movie Gandalfs says "Ni!", and Saruman and all the orcs explode. Because, you know, it was always known that Saruman and the orcs are killed by saying "Ni!" to them. But nobody thought on doing it before.

Then you will come out of the theater praising it because it is such a "subversion of expectation". And all the Tolkien fans that are traumatized by how bad and disrespectful the movie is to the lore, you will call them haters. That will teach them!

@Azrapse did it ever occur to you that you might have misunderstood some parts? E.g. someone here thought that a lightsaber killed Luke, or did not realize that Poe, Finn and Rose effectively killed almost the entire Resistance. Maybe there are other points that you, too, understood wrong? E.g.:

Quote

Entire subplots that lead nowhere.

The Canto stuff shows how good Holdo is, how dumb Poe is, and how much of a coward Finn was. Both Poe and Finn go through character development, Poe turning into a leader understanding Luke's intention, and Finn learns to fight and what to fight for. That's not "nowhere".

Quote

Entire rewrite of what the Force is,

Not really. Instead we got for the first time a very clear demonstration what the Jedi see and feel when they feel the force surrounding them. Luke was teaching us as much as Rey.

Quote

Force powers taken virtually out of the director's cloaca,

Like lightning? Like mindtricks? Why is one better or worse than the other? Because one has been around for 40 years and we all accepted it, while the other has been around for 40 hours and we did not yet?

Quote

literal burning of the lore and tradition of the franchise.

Maybe you missed that Rey actually took the books from the tree? Also, it was Yoda himself burning the tree to teach a lesson - again not only to Luke but also to us.

Honestly, at this point you are grasping for things to hate. Same with the Raddus being used as weapon. You could choose to understand, but instead you chose to hate it. Which is why "hater" is appropriate: you are actively ignoring explanation from the movie, actively misunderstanding and actively searching for points to hate.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

@Azrapse did it ever occur to you that you might have misunderstood some parts? E.g. someone here thought that a lightsaber killed Luke, or did not realize that Poe, Finn and Rose effectively killed almost the entire Resistance. Maybe there are other points that you, too, understood wrong? E.g.:

The Canto stuff shows how good Holdo is, how dumb Poe is, and how much of a coward Finn was. Both Poe and Finn go through character development, Poe turning into a leader understanding Luke's intention, and Finn learns to fight and what to fight for. That's not "nowhere".

Gonna jump in here-- HOW?! WHY?! What changed for any of these characters? What, Poe has never been in a conflict where he didn't understand the leader's plan before this one? Poe completely mutinies for no real reason and faces zero consequences for it? What?

And Finn... continues to just bumble around and be rescued by insane amounts of plot armor. Plot armor has always been a feature of Star Wars, but it's usually by other characters doing things. Finn just... survives things. For no reason. An entire hanger gets 'sploded and kills everyone around him and Rose (except for Phasma, who just ends up on the other side of the hanger). Phasma knocks him down an elevator shaft, and she just casually walks away without noticing the elevator was actually only 5 feet down. He magically doesn't get shot down by AT-ATs after all of the other speeders break off and they're focused solely on him. He enters the edges of a miniaturized death star beam-- totally fine. Rose collides with his speeder, trashing both of their rides (they basically disintegrate) and... totally fine. She's hurt, though. And what did he learn, up to this point? What growth did he have from TFA? How has his personality changed in any way? Because he didn't want the First Order to win? He already considered the Resistance the good guys and the FO the bad guys. He's already entered into random fights with various First Order entities, so it's not like he hasn't tried to fight before.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Not really. Instead we got for the first time a very clear demonstration what the Jedi see and feel when they feel the force surrounding them. Luke was teaching us as much as Rey.

Like lightning? Like mindtricks? Why is one better or worse than the other? Because one has been around for 40 years and we all accepted it, while the other has been around for 40 hours and we did not yet?

Maybe you missed that Rey actually took the books from the tree? Also, it was Yoda himself burning the tree to teach a lesson - again not only to Luke but also to us.

I'd roughly agree with you here. That part was fine. But then there's the whole Dark Side cave thing... which doesn't actually do anything. Luke sees Rey get called to the dark, gets terrified, and then... keeps training her anyway. She eventually goes to the Dark Side cave and... nothing really happens. No conflict or demonstration, like Luke killing Vader/himself in the Cave. Nothing happens. She sees that her parents are nobody, I guess? But she knew the whole time, soooooo... yeah, nothing happens. I think the Force mythos complaints are a little bunk, but they set up a Light/Dark balance thing and then immediately subvert it with Luke's about-face on the Jedi. So Light/Dark balance is enough to drive a plot point, but not enough for a character to behave in a fashion that makes sense about it? Like, it totally makes sense that the Force has to be "balanced" in some way, there's a very real danger to Rey/other Jedi existing, and then Luke just proudly proclaims that he isn't the last Jedi because Yoda force-ghosted and taught him a lesson about the old ways having to give way to new... so he GOES BACK TO THE OLD WAY OF THINKING. WHAT?!

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Honestly, at this point you are grasping for things to hate. Same with the Raddus being used as weapon. You could choose to understand, but instead you chose to hate it. Which is why "hater" is appropriate: you are actively ignoring explanation from the movie, actively misunderstanding and actively searching for points to hate.

The sequel trilogy has just lacked any common consistency with respect to physics and mechanics within the universe, even between each other, much less with respect to the earlier films. It's totally fair to be bothered by those scenes.

1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

You clearly have chosen some kind of side to defend to death, and will call everyone else that disagrees with you a hater.
You are calling people that have loved Star Wars for 40 years "haters" just because they happen to dislike a movie that is full of plot holes, empty characters, unnecessary detours, subplots and dead-ends, and that ultimately takes a good amount of time to undo, contradict, and destroy so many things that have been there as fundamental construction blocks of the whole Star Wars universe.

Let me guess, you like Rogue One right?

I do get all this reasoning for the casino side plot. But, at the end of the day, I just wish I enjoyed any of the time they spent there and I more just feel like we missed out on a really good Crimson Tide: Star Wars Edition, rather than cramming that all into a couple of scenes.

5 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

What, Poe has never been in a conflict where he didn't understand the leader's plan before this one? Poe completely mutinies for no real reason and faces zero consequences for it? What?

Strategy is sometimes divided into direct and indirect approaches. Poe was 100% a direct guy and did not understand Holdo, who used an indirect approach to save them, letting the FO follow and shoot at an empty ship. And she would have saved all of them. The way Poe wanted to solve the situation was by going in. A very high risk approach with some higher payoff. He learned her way, and that was shown to us when he did not rush out but correctly identified Luke‘s ruse. Something he was not able to at the beginning.

I‘m on mobile and have a meeting in 5‘, but I can continue later if you want

1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

You are such a contradicting person, aren't you?

You were complaining the other day about the Rebels destroying some star destroyers by ramming them with a ship with experimental technology and calling it an aberration.
Now you love the movie that destroys all space battles in Star Wars by doing exactly the same thing only without any experimental technology.

So you can destroy an entire fleet of star destroyers an a 60 km one with a single ship thrown at them?
Why don't they do that with the Trade Federation droid control ship in Episode I?
Why don't they do that in the Battle of Coruscant in Episode III?
Why don't they do that in the Battle of Yavin in Episode IV?
Why don't they do that with the Executor in Episode V?
Why don't they do that in the Battle of Endor in Episode VI?
Why don't they do that with the power regulator or whatever in Episode VII?

Actually... why don't they just move everyone to the frigates and do the same thing in this very Episode VIII, only 2 hours earlier in the movie, if it was always a possibility!?

This movie is ridiculous. It contradicts the whole Star Wars that came before it, making it all feel stupid and pointless.

You clearly have chosen some kind of side to defend to death, and will call everyone else that disagrees with you a hater.
You are calling people that have loved Star Wars for 40 years "haters" just because they happen to dislike a movie that is full of plot holes, empty characters, unnecessary detours, subplots and dead-ends, and that ultimately takes a good amount of time to undo, contradict, and destroy so many things that have been there as fundamental construction blocks of the whole Star Wars universe.

"This is how Star Wars dies, with a thunderous applause"

do you have any idea what happens when you apply faster than light speed to stuff? Not to mention, The Raddus was destroyed in the process? Unlike the IMPERVIOUS CORVETTE OF DOOOOOOOOOOM. Which they used twice.

And who did I call a hater? Now you're just putting words in my mouth, honestly at this point, you are not worth arguing with. You're simply livid. Please return when you can actually be like, reasonable, and not decide to say "you said this!"

Please, quote me where I called people haters. Please.

9 minutes ago, Jiron said:

Let me guess, you like Rogue One right?

Rogue One follows the rules of the original trilogy, has a comprehensive story with clear motivations for the characters involved (even if the pacing is sometimes off), and the plot is driven primarily by direct acts of agency by the characters involved.

It was flawed in some ways, but it was way better from both a universe standpoint and a stand-alone story standpoint.

Kylo Rens scar is the perfect example of Rian Johnsons approach to Star Wars, if he does not like what is established, he will just change it.

2 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Rogue One follows the rules of the original trilogy, has a comprehensive story with clear motivations for the characters involved (even if the pacing is sometimes off), and the plot is driven primarily by direct acts of agency by the characters involved.

It was flawed in some ways, but it was way better from both a universe standpoint and a stand-alone story standpoint.

From my perspective it was empty story with no emotional subtext, lame and insignificat characters with very unstable motivations and significant amounts of enormous plot holes!

I think it's just the matter of prefferences.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Strategy is sometimes divided into direct and indirect approaches. Poe was 100% a direct guy and did not understand Holdo, who used an indirect approach to save them, letting the FO follow and shoot at an empty ship. And she would have saved all of them. The way Poe wanted to solve the situation was by going in. A very high risk approach with some higher payoff. He learned her way, and that was shown to us when he did not rush out but correctly identified Luke‘s ruse. Something he was not able to at the beginning.

I‘m on mobile and have a meeting in 5‘, but I can continue later if you want

It's totally ham-fisted, though. He, Finn and Rose are directly responsible for 26ish transports being destroyed, but it's okay because Poe finally learned after how many years of military service that sometimes your superiors do, in fact, of a plan?

So he royally messes up, faces no real consequences (that he's aware of) other than a little egg on his face, while meanwhile we the audience know his actions cost hundreds of lives, and now he's a trustworthy leader. That an explanation is present doesn't mean that people have to like the explanation.

2 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Haters gonna hate.

Luke leaves them lashing out at nothing.

The movie was great.

Bingo.

Someone says "Haters gonna hate", you say "Bingo".
Either you were playing the forum game of filling up a bingo card with stuff people say in the forums, or you were agreeing with this person.
If you were playing the bingo game, then I apologize and admit my misunderstanding, good sir.

(Somehow, I have the feeling that you weren't playing the bingo game, though)