3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/WAC-47

He was a pilot. And VA Holdo did it alone, too.

Not to mention you simply design suicide droids flying large chunks of metal with a hyperdrive.

You can even use immortal droids, because as part of the fleet operation you would be fine with using remote controlled droid bodies as weapon operators, after all such hyperspace weapons are only useful as terror weapons or ordonance during fleet engagements, but they can not make up your whole fleet. One control ship with a a few dozen hyperspace mass drivers and you are all setup. Naturally it immediately gets countered by interdictor bubbles or gravity mines

Fine, strap a droid brain onto a hyperdrive onto a massive chunk of rock. You still have to buy the hyperdrive, find a massive enough chunk of rock, and get it in the right place without the opponent shooting the hyperdrive off it. And that assumes that shields aren't an important part of the equation. Etc etc etc.

Then, as you say, it all gets countered somehow anyway. Or your opponent just copies you cand you're back to square one.

Arms races are a natural part of war, and if they show that in the next movie, I'd be quite happy. It's not unimaginable that this should be the first time in living memory anyone did this and left survivors.

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Sure, Luke was almost goaded - not tempted, goaded by the Emperor into turning to the Dark Side to defeat Vader in Return of the Jedi, but he didn't, did he? He refused, he stayed his hand, he utterly rejected the Dark Side, preferring to die than embrace it. In fact, that point only supports my argument, as having already faced down and denied the Dark Side in much more dire and desperate circumstances, he should have been more than capable of helping a boy struggling with his own personal demons rather than considering striking him down as he slept.

He did not murder Kylo Ren either, he just has seen the force vision of Kylo becoming the new Darth Vader, killing billions and was tempted for a second to actually kill him while trying to confront Kylo about this visions. He was tempted far longer to kill vader when he keeps hitting on him like a mad man. In both cases Luke realized his mistake, but Kylo did not give him a chance, unleashing is full power immediately in defense against a threat which was not there.

Works for me, reflects my own experiences.

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's not unimaginable that this should be the first time in living memory anyone did this and left survivors.

Nope, we have several canon and legends examples of this before. So it's not new. I just don't like it, especially not because the explosion was over the top and killed several "super" star destroyers escorting the flag ship.

Wait a minute. In the Star Wars they have nearly sentient droids. So they could have sentient super computers. IA controlled weapons that would never miss. Armies of Grievous. But no. This is space fantasy, not hard SF. As far as technology goes, they are just using old technologies without any knowledge on how to develop new ones.

Just like a bunch of millenials in an Apple Store.

Grievous is a man, not a droid.

2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Grievous is a man, not a droid.

So are Stormtroopers. Enhance them instead of giving them a useless "armor" !

1 minute ago, Cartchan said:

So are Stormtroopers. Enhance them instead of giving them a useless "armor" !

AT-PTs, STs, ATs, Tanks? ;-)

edit: Oh and some of the dark troopers!

15 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Naturally it immediately gets countered by interdictor bubbles or gravity mines

Well... except that TFA has established that you can Hyperspace in the presence of massive gravity wells, as long as you like flip off a security setting or something I suppose?

And that's my complaint with both 7 and 8 -- they ignore fundamental established pillars of the canon in order to advance their pretty ho-hum stories, and the cost is that it unravels all the threads of this built world.

11 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well... except that TFA has established that you can Hyperspace in the presence of massive gravity wells, as long as you like flip off a security setting or something I suppose?

And that's my complaint with both 7 and 8 -- they ignore fundamental established pillars of the canon in order to advance their pretty ho-hum stories, and the cost is that it unravels all the threads of this built world.

Safety, actually... And I can see very well why that would be a good idea to leave turned on!!! That said, TFA isn't alone on that now... Rogue One did it too. Also, communications while in hyperspace is now a thing. Midicholorians... Oh wait, that was a pillar that was knocked down before.

Yeah, I dislike the old pillars being knocked down. The argument can be made (in nu-canon) that these things aren't actually documented any more as facts and were merely not shown. I dislike that as well.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

Poe gets a lot of arc in this one. He fails sure, but he grows from it. He has been setup.
Han is dead. That is as boring as it gets.
Snoke? For real. He not only is not interesting as a concept, but he is litteraly boring in the movie as well. He is not an interesting character. You WISH he would be, but it is your own leap of logic that claims that he actually IS a interesting character. JJs Mystery Box in full action.

Luke is an interesting character and gets a full heroes journey arc in this movie. (BTW he does not die from meditating to much. If that is your conclusion of the scene, you need to watch movie again until you get it. Maybe they should have been more blunt about it and make him appear as force ghost right beside the broom kid, and not just as metaphorical starlite)

Phasma? What makes her interesting? The **** you projected into the bland slate that JJ presented you with in TFA or is there anything interesting about her character that is ACTUALLY shown in any of the movies? Projecting **** into characters, I know, is a great ability of star wars fans, making Boba Fett the most interesting man alive dead. It still not making them any competition to the actual protagonists of the movie, which are Poe, Finn, Rey and Rose. Kylo could be added as pseudo-protagonists because it almost seems like he is learning and changing, but we learn that this was all his plan along to kill Snoke, so he stays the antagonist for Rey.

Maz? I give you that, she seems interesting, she set her up that way in TFA and continue to keep her a mystery, which at the other hand is the most interesting thing about her. The mystery. Unlike Snoke she is an actual Mystery, because the other characters around her don't know **** about her either and are wondering about her too. Snoke at the other hand is just a guy we know nothing about, while the rest of the world seems to have a solid idea about him, just like with the emperor.

Maybe i did not express myself properly. What i should have said is probably "characters with potential". Yes the failed with haw they handled Snoke. But he had potential. He was intriguing. You actually wanted to know more about him.

Just because Han is dead doesnt mean he was not an interesting character. In Force Awaken definitely had emotional impact.

Euuu care to explain how Luke died? Cause what i saw and what most people i know saw is him being exhausted after his meditation and then dying (or becoming a ghost, which is kinda the same thing...)

Just like Snoke, Phasma had some mystery around her. She had a lot of potential that was wasted by bad handling of the character.

Protagonist is me handling poorly english language. I was searching for an alternate way to say "main characters" so has to not repeat the same words too often. Kylo and Rey are definitely the 2 main characters but they feel empty now. There is no mystery left for the 3rd film outside of Maz. Nothing making me feel the need to see it as soon as possible. Rey's parent: boring answer. Kylo turning: very simple story with no punch. Snoke and phasma: DOA. Luke: gone (we all know hes going to inspire Rey as a ghost. He will probably help her in the final battle vs Kylo. Leia: we know she wont be there.

18 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well... except that TFA has established that you can Hyperspace in the presence of massive gravity wells, as long as you like flip off a security setting or something I suppose?

Rogue One and TFA both established that the gravity well of a planet does not extend beyond its surface. Meanwhile rebels and tarkin established clearly in canon that gravity wells can prevent hyperspace use.

11 hours ago, Sithborg said:

The only part that Rian destroys and doesn't build back up, is the idea of "The Chosen One".

He does deconstruct the idea of the legendary heroes in Star Wars. Showing them that they aren't perfect. And shows what would have happened in those dashing adventures had failed. But the important point is that new heroes would be able to arise. That anyone could be a hero.

But of course, a pretty big call that Star Wars isn't necessarily about the Skywalkers or Solos any more is going to no sit well.

That sort of nihilism isn't wise, it is lazy and dangerous. "Oh, I guess I could do something, but it doesn't matter. Someone else will do it." Progress doesn't just happen on its own.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

I dunno, how can anyone have another battle after revealing that flying your entire air fleet into your opponent's sea fleet whilst it's unprepared at anchor decimates their fleet?

Oh, because not everyone's willing to send pilots on suicide bombing runs, let alone waste rare and expensive ships doing it.

One airplane doing a suicide run wont be able to decimate an entire sea fleet. Its a 1/1 trade at best. Thats not what happened in TLJ...

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Don't get me wrong, I see the issue. But treating people like unfeeling robots is a huge issue in response. Why don't they just use capital ship hyper-rams all the time? Why don't the US just glass the middle east with nukes? Why didn't capital ships in WW2 just ram each other to death? Why don't x just suicide large amounts of valuable materiel? Because materiel and lives have value and aren't usually to be wasted even in critical engagements, or because doing so invites mutually assured destruction, or... etc.

Uhh, I'll offer some response here:

(1) Why don't they just use capital ship hyper-rams all the time? Great question, and it's the very reason so many of us hate that scene... because this is a valid question. When YOUR ENTIRE REBELLION AND THE FATE OF THE GALAXY DEPEND ON A BATTLE, you can bet some one would have been like "Sir, I'll hyperspace my Corvette into that Scarif shield-gate so we can get the plans and save the lives of our folks trapped on the surface!" Though, this would have classically been impossible for two reasons prior to the New Trilogy: (a) you can't hyperspace near gravity wells because it interferes with the hyperdrive (thrown out by TFA), and (b) You can't interact with 'normal space' while in 'hyper space' (thrown out by TLJ).

(2) Why don't the US just glass the middle east with nukes? Are you seriously trying to draw an analogy between using hyper-space weaponry against hostile enemy warships vs. using nuclear weapons on an entire Regional full of civilians? Not to mention the political complexities involved, including the catastrophic environmental damage that would be done and would have effects across the entire planet? I mean, this isn't a fair comparison at all...

(3) Why didn't capital ships in WW2 just ram each other to death? Well, for starters, ramming has been an established naval tactic for centuries. Greek warships were often designed to have bows that resembled battering rams, for this very purpose. Even as late as WWII, ramming occurred, sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally. At least four German submarines were rammed by British vessels (U-357, U-444, U-66, U-458). Captain Walker of the Royal Navy had developed the ramming tactic as a way for destroyers to take out submarines that were too close to be targeted by the deck-guns. The HMS Campbletown was disguised as a German warship for the sole purpose of a ram-attack. But, even then, warships are exponentially slower than faster-than-light vessels. To get your ship all the way through enemy weapon range and into another enemy ship (which could try and avoid you) is a pretty impossible feat, and the damages sustained to ships in the process is much less than you'd expected from a hyperspace ram (e.g. two Soviet vessels rammed two US naval ships in 1988 in contested waters and none of the four ships took noticeable damage). And even then, in real-world conflicts you have your crew to think about, as many crews surrendered to enemy ships (rather than getting all of your crew killed). With an enemy as fanatical and zealous as the First Order, though, surrender seems less reasonable. But if rams were possible at hyperspeed...they'd be impossible for an enemy to avoid... just launch your hyper-capable escape pods or shuttles and BAM! goodbye enemy ship.

(4) Why don't x just suicide large amounts of valuable materiel? Because materiel and lives have value and aren't usually to be wasted even in critical engagements, or because doing so invites mutually assured destruction, or... etc. Well, this doesn't make sense. The material and lives you'd have to invest and the attrition you'd sustain with a 'traditional' fleet in taking out a Snoke-class destroyer would be astronomically more costly than using a ship that's built without crew compartments, weapon systems, life support, etc. and is staffed by a single droid pilot for the sole purpose of ramming. The economics are heavily in favor of the Hyper-Ram Suicide Ship. And even then, once you're traditional ship was at a point where it was clear you were on the losing side of an exchange with the enemy, it'd still be more "efficient" to hyper-suicide into that enemy ship than it would be to let your ship get destroyed/captured. So I don't think this critique carries any weight at all.

----> So, yea, this is why so many of us have such a giant problem with that tactic being possible now, courtesy TLJ....

1 minute ago, Thormind said:

One airplane doing a suicide run wont be able to decimate an entire sea fleet. Its a 1/1 trade at best. Thats not what happened in TLJ...

Yeah. Kamikazes were loaded with explosives, and they were still not one-hit-killing ships. Least of all the largest ships imaginable.

If hyperspace were a deadly weapon, there would be hyperspace missiles. That would be the end game of warfare.

1 minute ago, Thormind said:

Maybe i did not express myself properly. What i should have said is probably "characters with potential". Yes the failed with haw they handled Snoke. But he had potential. He was intriguing. You actually wanted to know more about him.

No, I did not see much potential in Snoke. He thought it was a pretty bland and boring concept. Not only bringing DS3, pap Sheev 2.0 as well?

Quote

care to explain how Luke died? Cause what i saw and what most people i know saw is him being exhausted after his meditation and then dying (or becoming a ghost, which is kinda the same thing...)

The same way Obi-Wan died. Obi-Wan was not hit by Vader's lightsaber either, but became one with the force by choice. Luke did the same thing. Right after treating Kylo to haunt him forever btw. ;-)
In context that there is a whole generation of force sensitive children waiting to be taught ... a pretty brilliant move. Remember, the jedi order consisted of more than 10,000 force sensitives, but TFA presented us with a a dozen or so in Luke's academy, Kylo Ren and Rey and that's it. The jedi purge and hunt for force sensitives ended with the empire and the new republic lasted for 30 years. The galaxy must be full with force sensitives, broom kid being just one of tens of thousands. Too much to handle for a mortal being …

6 minutes ago, Knightcrawler said:

That sort of nihilism isn't wise, it is lazy and dangerous. "Oh, I guess I could do something, but it doesn't matter. Someone else will do it." Progress doesn't just happen on its own.

Which is exactly why the movie is establishing after the deconstruction that those actions still mattered, they are the base for the next generations, triumphs and failures alike. Don't forget your past, don't destroy it like Kylo is trying, but don't hold yourself back with it either. Progress indeed does not happen on its own, and thus the characters, including the ones who failed move forward and try again.

40 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Fine, strap a droid brain onto a hyperdrive onto a massive chunk of rock. You still have to buy the hyperdrive, find a massive enough chunk of rock, and get it in the right place without the opponent shooting the hyperdrive off it. And that assumes that shields aren't an important part of the equation. Etc etc etc.

Ooh, yeah, that would be tricky. . .

4 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Rogue One and TFA both established that the gravity well of a planet does not extend beyond its surface. Meanwhile rebels and tarkin established clearly in canon that gravity wells can prevent hyperspace use.

What?? Things fall from orbit. . .well above the surface of the planet.

8 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Safety, actually... And I can see very well why that would be a good idea to leave turned on!!! That said, TFA isn't alone on that now... Rogue One did it too. Also, communications while in hyperspace is now a thing. Midicholorians... Oh wait, that was a pillar that was knocked down before.

Yeah, I dislike the old pillars being knocked down. The argument can be made (in nu-canon) that these things aren't actually documented any more as facts and were merely not shown. I dislike that as well.

And it's actually worse than that. If every new director gets to assign "storyline physics" to their new set piece, the whole universe is going to be a non-coherent tangle of garbage.

Not only have we deconstructed the Star Wars myth, we will deconstruct the whole pseudo-universe and thrown FOUR DECADES of fact-checking cohesion out thew window for a couple of new movies.

8 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

What?? Things fall from orbit. . .well above the surface of the planet.

Jesus, you are a nitpicking pain in my ***, obviously the kind of strength that interferes with hyperspace engines. The gravity well of the sun extends about a lightyear outwards ... so much for jumping from anywhere within a solar system ... oh **** wait, the gravity well of the central backwhole extends over the whole galaxy. ;-)

******* nitpicking nerfherder … I still love you, but sometimes you make me really explode.

edit: In this context we could ask the question how many g are needed to make a hyperdrive fail. 5? 10? 100? 1000?

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

And it's actually worse than that. If every new director gets to assign "storyline physics" to their new set piece, the whole universe is going to be a non-coherent tangle of garbage.

Not only have we deconstructed the Star Wars myth, we will deconstruct the whole pseudo-universe and thrown FOUR DECADES of fact-checking cohesion out thew window for a couple of new movies.

Congrats. You've identified my issue with Star Wars. The story group. It's their job to keep things together in a cohesive whole. Both old EU and new this has been poorly done. Old EU had it's own fact check failings and mishaps. You can say you like the old EU better, that's personal preference, but you cannot say those old pillars were perfectly constructed either.

2 hours ago, Cartchan said:

"The more I read through this thread, the more it appears to me that" the people who were the most disappointed are the ones who know and love the EU. Star Wars went in another direction. They are in unknown territories and they miss their landmarks (Mara Jade, adult Luke Skywalker)

As someone who only know the movies and Rebels, I enjoyed this film.

I read the EU Legends. I think some it is cool, but I think it is to confusing for casual Star Wars fans. It only makes sense if you are an intense Star Wars fan obsessed over the lore (such as myself). In order to understand everything in the Legends universe, you have read and played with Legends material.

The new trilogy is easier to follow and understand. If someone wants to know more minor details, their are books, comics, video games, and TV shows for them.

A good take here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-19/-the-last-jedi-is-good-it-just-isn-t-magical

I really don't understand the issues you have with the ram. Yes, its clear this isn't done very often. But it's not inconsistent with the canon data on how hyperdrives work. Its just slightly counter to the now non-canon ways hyperdrives used to work.

But even if we say that a ship in hyperspace is completely in another dimension, it is possible that it would still interact with the physical world. It could still have its own gravity shadow, and moving at light speed that alone could rip ships apart.

Another possibility is that shipsdon't immediately enter hyperspace, but it takes a few milliseconds, during which time the ship is moving in the physical world at a speed approaching the speed of light before it ''phases'' between dimensions. And anything it collides with during that brief window is going to hit it. Hence the hyperspace ram worked.

Now as for ''why they not do this before?" In a galaxy that has had hyperspace travel for thousands of years, its likely that there might be a universal taboo against it. Such that every hyperdrive has a safety feature turning it off when near a gravity well. Its so commonplace that people have difficulty thinking about ''what if we turned that off?". So Han having that as a trick makes sense. A very dangerous trick for sure. Everybody knows the dangers of light speed collisions, so they actively try to avoid them.

9 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Jesus, you are a nitpicking pain in my ***, obviously the kind of strength that interferes with hyperspace engines. The gravity well of the sun extends about a lightyear outwards ... so much for jumping from anywhere within a solar system ... oh **** wait, the gravity well of the central backwhole extends over the whole galaxy. ;-)

******* nitpicking nerfherder … I still love you, but sometimes you make me really explode.

Yeah, yeah, OK, maybe some personal backstory would help about my nits. . .

I have roleplayed as the Game Master in the Star Wars universe 3 times. Mostly, I have used WEGs "physics" because having working "ground rules" makes gameplay fair and even handed. If X is possible, the players and NPCs alike can do it. If Y is not possible, it is unfair to disallow the players to do it then GM fiat an enemy that can. "How close in can you jump?" was a major issue. . .and they answer was "not close enough to avoid the Imperial blockade, not close enough to avoid shields, and not with an Interdictor Cruiser creating a grav well." So, "logical" pseudo-science is important to me

In the Legends universe, FTL radio and communications in hyperspace was not possible. This is how the Empire was able to carve up the galaxy and keep planets in the dark and in fear. Control of the holonet was a big deal, and radio comms from a small ship couldn't get far enough to be meaningful. People had to travel to communicate.

And if you change all the hyperspace "rules:" Why do ships fly in and out of a planet? How do you have an Imperial blockade of Hoth if the GR-75s could have just jumped to hyperspace from the planet's surface?? How was that shield on Hoth even a big deal if you can jump thru it? Surely the Imperial have some pilots that can be specially trained "shield runners." How can they blockade Naboo?? Why doesn't every hotshot pilot just jump in closest to the nearest pine tree when they want to head somewhere? Every pirate in the galaxy would do that to avoid taxes, blockades, the law, etc. etc.

All these new hyperspace tricks make a mockery of old storylines.

It used to be that I was irritated that Vader never recognizes the R2 unit he spent the entire Clone Wars with and the 3PO unit he personally built. I had to hand wave it because the OT was made first. But now, the new movies are making the old movies make no sense, for a storyline-one-trick-wonder.