1 minute ago, jocke01 said:

Looks to me that we have 2 different visions that get's control in every other movive. Would rather see JJ's trilogy and then Rians. Not having them share it

THat was JJ's decision. JJ decided that he wanted not do 8, only 7 and 9, basically JJ wanted to stay the **** away from his own Mystery Boxes. Who would have thought?

Johnson gets his own trilogy now, and I am looking forward to watch it, because I really love 8, but I admit, I am biased. Stuff happens I liked and middle fingers were raised towards that stupid **** from JJ.

28 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

In the end we get a mess of 2 VERY different ideas against eachother that are going to result in a mess in the last movie unless JJ does a miracle.

A lot of it will depend on how long in 'narrative time' there is between 8 and 9.

I get why 8 picks up 'immediately' after 7 - because you ended with "here, have a lightsaber" and Finn in a coma, and you can't walk away from either of those scenes without some sort of closure.

This is very different from 4 to 5. The film ends with the Empire being aware of Yavin...but the rebels are no longer on Yavin. Whether they came direct from Yavin to Hoth, or not, is left to the imagination, but it's clear "stuff happened". The reference to Ord Mantell is a good example. Luke is now 'commander skywalker'. The rebels top end command structure has changed (Dodonna - Reikan).

2 to 3 is much the same - even before Dave Filoni got involved, we knew a lot of stuff had happened off-screen in the clone wars - aside from the first and last battle, the entire war is basically 'off-screen' and leaves huge amounts of space to explore and allows our imagination to forgive changes in the status quo

But because we have an 'instant' follow-up, it means it jars more if the story moves on too much.

The First Order sending a conventional fleet to reduce D'Qar after Starkiller Base got blown up makes sense (even if it's not exactly explained how **** Dastardly and Muttly sorry "Hux and Phasma" made it off the planet).

Seeing "look, another superweaponshipofdoomitsliketheexecutorbutevenscarierisntit"feels like a bit of a cop-out in a sense that there was no real storyline need to have the dreadnought in the scene rather than just a destroyer, but what the heck, a bombardment-dedicated ship is a sensible storyline progression from and answer to Hoth and "there is a shield protecting the base which will deflect any bombardment".

What doesn't seem to make sense how much has happened everywhere else. Yes, Hosnian Prime got blown up, and the New Republic Starfleet with it. But one reason the New Republic Starfleet wasn't big was that there was a deliberate effort to move the balance of power back to individual system defence forces, which would have been 'at home' and should be unaffected by Starkiller's one shot of "Phantom Energy"* blowing up the capital.

As a result, the simultaneous and immediate "they will have conquered the entire galaxy in the next eight-and-a-half-minutes unless we stop them!" feels...daft. If it was that quick and easy.....it starts feeling ridiculous.

* I present for your consideration the latest contender for the Technobabble of the decade award from The Force Awakens Novelisation:

Phantom energy was a state of dark energy. When the Starkiller Base superweapon released the quintessence it had collected within its core, it was transformed into phantom energy, which would follow the line of egress that had been provided by the weapon's technicians according to planetary rotation, inclination, etc, through a hole in "sub-hyperspace", until it was intercepted by an object of sufficient mass. When the beam of phantom energy interacted with a planet, it ignited its core, creating a pocket nova (A pocket nova was a phenomenon known to astrophysicists that occurred when a planetary core was ignited by an outside force, resulting in the formation of a star).

Large amounts of phantom energy could create temporary rips in sub-hyperspace, which allowed the Hosnian Catacylsm in 34 ABY to become visible from across the galaxy as it happened.

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

THat was JJ's decision. JJ decided that he wanted not do 8, only 7 and 9, basically JJ wanted to stay the **** away from his own Mystery Boxes. Who would have thought?

Johnson gets his own trilogy now, and I am looking forward to watch it, because I really love 8, but I admit, I am biased. Stuff happens I liked and middle fingers were raised towards that stupid **** from JJ.

I guess we are 2 very different people with 2 very different ideas of star wars. GL too you

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/17/16785066/star-wars-the-last-jedi-porgs

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

That's some good finals-week humor. Thank you!

6 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

* I present for your consideration the latest contender for the Technobabble of the decade award from The Force Awakens Novelisation:

Phantom energy was a state of dark energy. When the Starkiller Base superweapon released the quintessence it had collected within its core, it was transformed into phantom energy, which would follow the line of egress that had been provided by the weapon's technicians according to planetary rotation, inclination, etc, through a hole in "sub-hyperspace", until it was intercepted by an object of sufficient mass. When the beam of phantom energy interacted with a planet, it ignited its core, creating a pocket nova (A pocket nova was a phenomenon known to astrophysicists that occurred when a planetary core was ignited by an outside force, resulting in the formation of a star).

Large amounts of phantom energy could create temporary rips in sub-hyperspace, which allowed the Hosnian Catacylsm in 34 ABY to become visible from across the galaxy as it happened.

Tied only with Star Trek!

One of the great developments of the force from Star Wars through The Last Jedi (and I'll completely forget about the pre-quels nonsense of metachlorians or whatever) is that the force is very subtle for the light side in Star Wars. Darth Vader chokes people, Ben Kenobi uses the force without having generally to be so direct (mind misdirection is more his thing, rather than kill you with his power). I see Luke's use of telekinetic powers in Empire an inexperienced Jedi's use of it, even in Return of the Jedi. But there is a great theme established...Rey is direct, old Luke is a million times more sly.

The projection of Luke on Crait is perhaps the best use of Light side Force to me. I am also so glad Force powers go beyond lifting and throwing, or waving across a powerful suggestion to someone's mind. I love these things too, but not only does the projection show Luke's power, it's the use of the Force that shows his greater wisdom, and Kylo Ren's lack thereof.

For the story that is Star Wars, again, perfectly done.

Force projection is in Legends a few times. Its not exactly a new force power they thought up. But yeah, that sequence is probably my favorite in the film.

Legends isn't a movie so I'm sorry, I know people like that stuff, but to me it doesn't count (actually I'd say it doesn't count for Disney but then again, they've taken so much too...)

I should say that the older, Light side Force users will unleash their power. When necessary only, so that would be Yoda lifting the X-Wing, and Princess Leia making her way back to the ship. Again, which to me are amazing scenes.

4 minutes ago, KelRiever said:

Legends isn't a movie so I'm sorry, I know people like that stuff, but to me it doesn't count (actually I'd say it doesn't count for Disney but then again, they've taken so much too...)

I should say that the older, Light side Force users will unleash their power. When necessary only, so that would be Yoda lifting the X-Wing, and Princess Leia making her way back to the ship. Again, which to me are amazing scenes.

I don't think that most people have a problem with the fact that Leia could actually do it, but with the way it was filmed. To me, it was so incredibly corny and unfitting...

9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Oh, I got a better one:

Too cheap! I would make it at least 2 points.

4 minutes ago, debiler said:

I don't think that most people have a problem with the fact that Leia could actually do it, but with the way it was filmed. To me, it was so incredibly corny and unfitting...

I give you that.
I agree.
It does not destroy the movie still. It's a nitpick. A candidate for the special edition. ;-)

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

(...)
It does not destroy the movie still. It's a nitpick. (...)

Oh no, far from it. There are other things that accomplish this far better...

12 minutes ago, KelRiever said:

Legends isn't a movie so I'm sorry, I know people like that stuff, but to me it doesn't count (actually I'd say it doesn't count for Disney but then again, they've taken so much too...)

To some extent Yoda does the same thing in Rebels, rather more recently.

8 hours ago, Sithborg said:

But of course, a pretty big call that Star Wars isn't necessarily about the Skywalkers or Solos any more is going to no sit well.

The problem isnt the movies shifting away from Skywalkers or Solos. How Han died in TFA made sense. It was sad but it did not feel like a big let-down. Most people i know wanted to see Luke being badass at least once before vanishing away. Dying because of over meditation is not badass at all.

Another issue is the difficulty to connect with Rey and Kylo as leading figures. There are interesting characters in the two movies: Poe, Han, Snoke, Luke, Phasma, Maz, etc. They all feel more intriguing than them.

I think what went wrong with the movie is they tried too much to surprise fans. They ended up making bad decisions in order to do so. Take Reys parents for example. Everyone was trying to speculate about who they were. How do they surprise us? By making them nobodies. That leaves Rey even emptier than she already is.

IMO they should have killed emo Kylo instead of Snoke. For the last movie we are left with empty main characters and 2 decimated factions. What remains of the resistance can fit in the Falcon, which is in a way their last standing ship. Most of the 1st order fleet was destroyed as well.

Speaking of destruction... We now know that a single ship going to lightspeed can destroy an entire fleet. Basically to win almost any major battle, all thats needed is to sacrifice 1 or 2 ships. How can they stage any other space fight after that?

4 hours ago, DamianR said:

But there wasn't a cold war. Officially there was no problem, the imperial remnants had fled and were gone.

Gone where?! Did they watch them fly into a sun? In what universe would you think there was no chance of them coming back and thus didn't need to maintain a fleet in case of their return?!

3 hours ago, Pooleman said:

Where are those ships from?

Rogue Squadron 3 and Star Wars Galaxies respectively.

The more I read through this thread, the more it appears to me that we have a Batman v Superman situation on our hand (to quote- was it Honest Trailers? "Though you would be lying to say {insert part} wasn't kickass and {insert part] wasn't incredibly dumb." Something like that).

However, I would wholeheartedly say that Star Wars fans have it better now than DC fans had/ have it. If there is a weakness to every strength, at least this means that for every weakness there is a strenghth, too.

15 minutes ago, Thormind said:

The problem isnt the movies shifting away from Skywalkers or Solos. How Han died in TFA made sense. It was sad but it did not feel like a big let-down. Most people i know wanted to see Luke being badass at least once before vanishing away. Dying because of over meditation is not badass at all.

Another issue is the difficulty to connect with Rey and Kylo as leading figures. There are interesting characters in the two movies: Poe, Han, Snoke, Luke, Phasma, Maz, etc. They all feel more intriguing than them.

I think what went wrong with the movie is they tried too much to surprise fans. They ended up making bad decisions in order to do so. Take Reys parents for example. Everyone was trying to speculate about who they were. How do they surprise us? By making them nobodies. That leaves Rey even emptier than she already is.

IMO they should have killed emo Kylo instead of Snoke. For the last movie we are left with empty main characters and 2 decimated factions. What remains of the resistance can fit in the Falcon, which is in a way their last standing ship. Most of the 1st order fleet was destroyed as well.

Speaking of destruction... We now know that a single ship going to lightspeed can destroy an entire fleet. Basically to win almost any major battle, all thats needed is to sacrifice 1 or 2 ships. How can they stage any other space fight after that?

I dunno, how can anyone have another battle after revealing that flying your entire air fleet into your opponent's sea fleet whilst it's unprepared at anchor decimates their fleet?

Oh, because not everyone's willing to send pilots on suicide bombing runs, let alone waste rare and expensive ships doing it.

2 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

Gone where?! Did they watch them fly into a sun? In what universe would you think there was no chance of them coming back and thus didn't need to maintain a fleet in case of their return?!

The bit I still can't get over with this is the total loss. I can absolutely accept that the New Republic wanted to disarm in a big way to avoid looking like the Empire but the scale here is mind-bogglingly dumb.

Also, this occurred to me yesterday. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the government on Hosnian Prime because it now changed every x amount of years/cycles/whatever which is why it wasn't on Coruscant?

That means that the FO just happened to be able to wipe out the government when it just happened to be on the planet with all the arms factories on it, according to the books?

I mean you could argue they planned it that way, but if the timeline is that shortened we re-open the whole problem of building StarKiller Base when you can just walk in with your epic fleet and win instantly.

"The more I read through this thread, the more it appears to me that" the people who were the most disappointed are the ones who know and love the EU. Star Wars went in another direction. They are in unknown territories and they miss their landmarks (Mara Jade, adult Luke Skywalker)

As someone who only know the movies and Rebels, I enjoyed this film.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

I dunno, how can anyone have another battle after revealing that flying your entire air fleet into your opponent's sea fleet whilst it's unprepared at anchor decimates their fleet?

Oh, because not everyone's willing to send pilots on suicide bombing runs, let alone waste rare and expensive ships doing it.

Yeah but this is a universe with actual AI pretty much around every corner. All you need is a ton of scrap strapped to a hyperdrive and a remote-controlled (as happens to Chopper in Rebels) droid and boom, instant fleet killer.

Even go a step further and strap a hyperspace drive into an asteroid.

2 minutes ago, KellenC said:

I mean you could argue they planned it that way, but if the timeline is that shortened we re-open the whole problem of building StarKiller Base when you can just walk in with your epic fleet and win instantly.

In ANH and Rogue One, or in the new canon books like "Thrawn", it is explained that yes a Death Star is less effective than a fleet but the goal is to have a weapon that would keep problematic systems quiet just by the fear of it.

4 minutes ago, KellenC said:

The bit I still can't get over with this is the total loss. I can absolutely accept that the New Republic wanted to disarm in a big way to avoid looking like the Empire but the scale here is mind-bogglingly dumb.

Oh God, they've really gone full Spaceballs with the sequels, haven't they?

1 minute ago, Cartchan said:

"The more I read through this thread, the more it appears to me that" the people who were the most disappointed are the ones who know and love the EU. Star Wars went in another direction. They are in unknown territories and they miss their landmarks (Mara Jade, adult Luke Skywalker)

As someone who only know the movies and Rebels, I enjoyed this film.

I do love (parts of) the old EU, but I'm not a Star Wars fan for long enough to claim these "landmarks", great as they are, as my own. To me, what I miss most is landmarks to look for in the new stuff- which for me, Rogue One delivered, and this one- partially.

For The Last Jedi, I believe what is most phasing after the shock of unmet expectations is that the unknown territories are lacking in coherent structure too often.

Just now, Cartchan said:

In ANH and Rogue One, or in the new canon books like "Thrawn", it is explained that yes a Death Star is less effective than a fleet but the goal is to have a weapon that would keep problematic systems quiet just by the fear of it.

Yeah, fine except that it was shown to fail miserably twice in the space of a decade, if that.

Can you imagine the budget meeting?

Snoke: I want to spend a huge amount of money, time and effort building...AN EVEN BIGGER DEATH STAR

Hux: Uhhh but we could just go and defeat the Republic right now and maybe even spend that money buying off the people who care so little about freedom they wouldn't help the princess even if we trapped her on some salty backwater.

Snoke: *Urge to force choke intensifies*

4 minutes ago, KellenC said:

Yeah but this is a universe with actual AI pretty much around every corner. All you need is a ton of scrap strapped to a hyperdrive and a remote-controlled (as happens to Chopper in Rebels) droid and boom, instant fleet killer.

Even go a step further and strap a hyperspace drive into an asteroid.

Hey, maybe the actual AI doesn't like doing suicide runs either.

Not to mention, materiel is expensive, hyperdrives cost credits, especially ones big enough to move entire capital ships-worth of mass. So, evidently, does fuel. To borrow from another franchise entirely, rocks are not free, citizen http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rocks_Are_Not_Free!

And just maybe, noone thought of it before. Or noone remembered the last time someone thought of it, because last time someone thought of it they wiped out themselves and the whole of the enemy fleet with no survivors, and it just turned out that that Imperial carrier group was lost with all hands and no explanation.

It takes minimal thought to find a reason why it's not been done before (or at least, noone remembers), and who knows what'll happen in future.

Whole lotta people don't seem willing to actually think about how cool this stuff is.

1 minute ago, DampfGecko said:

I do love (parts of) the old EU, but I'm not a Star Wars fan for long enough to claim these "landmarks", great as they are, as my own. To me, what I miss most is landmarks to look for in the new stuff- which for me, Rogue One delivered, and this one- partially.

For The Last Jedi, I believe what is most phasing after the shock of unmet expectations is that the unknown territories are lacking in coherent structure too often.

Maybe the trick is not to have expectations.

I've been having hopes, but no expectations at all. All it really needed was Luke, Leia, Poe, Rey and Finn being awesome and Ren and Hux being emo and useless respectively to make me happy, and it delivered all those things.

I'm not without my gripes, but I'm mostly happy to accept the justifications for them so I can carry on enjoying the franchise I love.