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Just now, Boreas Mun said:

So you all say that Palpatine in original trilogy had much better backstory than Snoke?

@Azrapse posted a picture with the first page of the official, movie-preceeding novel which already contains more than we know on Snoke. So, yes?

1 minute ago, Boreas Mun said:

So you all say that Palpatine in original trilogy had much better backstory than Snoke?

Yeah I really don’t understand that opinion. The only thing we knew about him before the Prequels was that he was the Emporer, ****, we didn’t even know his name was Palpatine.

1 minute ago, Tbetts94 said:

Yeah I really don’t understand that opinion. The only thing we knew about him before the Prequels was that he was the Emporer, ****, we didn’t even know his name was Palpatine.

Based on the movies, no indeed.

***

I'm disheartened by how people are merciless with this movie as if they never watched the OT, even though this is the most realistic of the Episodes.

Space rules don't apply? Guess what: in the OT, space had gravity (people walked freely inside and outside ships - fighters behaved like planes) and had some sort of atmosphere (sounds, fire, explosions - Han and Leia out of the Millennium Falcon with a puny breath mask, pilots ejecting without breathing masks).

The reasons I liked loved this movie looks like are the same people here hated it: Ep. VIII is not afraid to step away from the past and build up its own mythos. I loved how the movie insisted in contradicting our expectations: killing people when they were supposed to live and making people survive when they were supposed to die. Making badass people the protagonists failing and random nobodies shining.

Rey: instead of the TFA's Mary Sue, she became a real person.

Poe: being the best pilot in the galaxy (and a hero) doesn't make you wise.

Finn: he is a runner, but he can find the real courage.

Luke: amazing, deep character.

Snoke: extremely powerful, but his pride was his downfall. Also, said the best words Kylo will ever hear: "You are a child.", "Lose that stupid mask".

Kylo: from spoiled child to a passionate and determinated psycho, from one of the worst villains to one of the best.

Leia: it was handled nicely. The space walk scene was exaggerated, but she is clearly a user of the force (and Jedi survived much more time without breathing, like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in Ep. I)

Are the Force powers in the film too strong, too new? Well, there is no single SW film that didn't introduce new and more powerful Jedi "magic".

Besides, the photography in Crait is gorgeous.

A lot of you guys are missing the important parts of storytelling, and I'd imagine it's because a lot of you are young and the prequels were a thing when you were kids so you had the back story and thus see it as "missing" in the original trilogy. The thing is, the Original Trilogy was a classic for 20 years before there were prequels, so apparently the backstory was irrelevant.

And here's the thing: With the Emperor, you don't need a backstory. The Original Trilogy crafts a world that makes sense from the start. It establishes that the Empire is a thing, which means it has an emperor, and since the Empire is bad, the emperor is obviously not good. As the films progress, we learn Vader works directly for the Emperor, and that the Emperor also has strong Force abilities like Vader. It's actually very well-crafted. Backstories aren't about detail. Sometimes a character doesn't need a complicated exploration of their origins. The OT's Emperor is just that kind of character.

The problem with Snoke is that the Star Wars world was built by the Original Trilogy, and then the New Trilogy completely subverts that built world. We assumed since 1983 that the Empire was defeated, and eventually gets replaced by the New Republic led by Our Heroes. Then we find out that is only partially the case. Now there's a Resistance (why are they called that? What are they resisting if there is a New Republic?) and a First Order, which is kinda like the Empire, but kinda lost at Jakku, but apparently didn't really lose since they built a Planet Death Star and have a huge fleet with dreadnoughts and B-2 Super Star Destroyers and... wait, how does this all work?

That's why Snoke's lack of a back story is problematic. Who the heck is Snoke? As far as the audience is concerned, that is. Because they're not reading novelizations. They still need to understand who the Big Bad is and how be got to be that way. And, given how simplistic the New Trilogy is, there's a certain argument for the idea that it establishes that he is the Big Bad and just the virtue of being the Big Bad is enough for people to follow the plot. It's still lazy scriptwriting and worldbuilding. Yeah, I mean, I understand that Snoke is the Big Bad and Kylo Ren is is errand boy, but honestly, part of what makes TFA's plot and characters so hard to care about is that you're never really sure what is going on to make all these characters dislike one another. It achieves this in the most basic way possible, by making sure all the First Order guys look like Nazis, lol. Big red black and white flags, blonde haired, blue eyed villains. Notice all the Conspicuous Diversity in the Resistance? How you can almost see the scribbling in the margins with numerical delineations of what race and gender each extra and bit actor from Central Casting is supposed to be? And how the only black guy we've ever seen in the Empire/New Order is the one who turns his back on it and joins the Resistance? That's not good storytelling, lol. That's literally just manipulating the audience's subconscious biases. TFA was terrible about that. And it seems like the only effort TLJ made to rectify those stroytelling problems was to render as many of them irrelevant as possible. And not through narrative, but basically in exposition. The First Order is winning, because look, they are winning. Heck, they even basically retcon the meager world-building of TFA in the opening scroll, lol. Snoke was a poorly conceptualized villain with no backstory, but look, now he's dead and it doesn't matter.

And Jebus, all of Checkhov's guns lying around. Luke's X-Wing and the missing apprentices who went with Kylo Ren, for example. This movie just picks up, forgets, and drops its toys like a toddler at times.

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I think it's sad if you dislike the movie for a reason that's not actually flawed by itself, even though the explanation is not coming from the movie.

Actually, yeah. That's a really, really, really big flaw. Films are not judged on the merit of their companion literature, lol. I like Star Wars, but I don't have the time or interest to read the novelizations and companion books, but I should still be able to understand what is happening on the screen. I've got stuff to do, other hobbies, other things I enjoy. Star Wars is relevant to me in the theater, and when playing X-Wing or Battlefront (but not II, because EA can suck it). Rogue One was great, and I didn't need any companion novels or sourcebooks to understand what was going on. If I have to read a book to understand a movie, I've watched a mediocre-to-bad movie. Which, coincidentally, is what TFA was. A really mediocre movie. It's a passable Star Wars film, but that bar bounced off the floor with Attack of the Clones, lol.

55 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

A lot of you guys are missing the important parts of storytelling, and I'd imagine it's because a lot of you are young and the prequels were a thing when you were kids so you had the back story and thus see it as "missing" in the original trilogy. The thing is, the Original Trilogy was a classic for 20 years before there were prequels, so apparently the backstory was irrelevant.

[...]

Actually, yeah. That's a really, really, really big flaw. Films are not judged on the merit of their companion literature, lol. I like Star Wars, but I don't have the time or interest to read the novelizations and companion books, but I should still be able to understand what is happening on the screen. I've got stuff to do, other hobbies, other things I enjoy. Star Wars is relevant to me in the theater, and when playing X-Wing or Battlefront (but not II, because EA can suck it).

We're not in the 70s/80s anymore. A movie from a well established franchise is nowadays taken apart in a way that was just not possible 40 years ago. Trailers today are analyzed frame by frame, when I remember going to the movies just to see a new trailer a second time.
We, the audience, cross reference details from movies, tv series, comics, novels, visual books with a scrutiny that is pretty ridiculous if we're honest, and most importantly discuss with people from all around the globe when we were limited to our immediate circle of friends not long ago.
We watch and rewatch trailers very often, until only misdirection allows us to see an actual new movie.
We watch behind-the-scenes videos, listen to interviews and so on.
We then go online and take the movie apart, scene by scene, and criticize even the smalles details.
We go on youtube to watch reviews that tell us what to think, where early established points will be repeated again and again by hundreds of layman reviewers, as everyone has an opinion that has to be shared, and where facts matter less than opinion.

That's what movies nowadays have to live up to, at least ones coming from a franchise like Star Wars. The original trilogy would never hold up against the scrutiny that is seen today. So comparing the two while missing the context through rose colored glasses is really not fair.

Yes, the movie messed up when he fails to identify the most pressing questions about the background. But you understand pretty well from the movie that the Army of the Republic has been annihilated. The companion literature only gets relevant once you ask why it was destroyed. How much crap from the OT was not answered by the movies?! Again, the scrutiny we apply today, the written discussions we have where evidence is so easily available and shareable would have utterly destroyed the OT when it was released.

6 hours ago, Keoki said:

I'm also hoping for a Snoke/First Order backstory. But I recall that Emperor/Empire didn't get a backstory for 20 years...

I thought the Empire and the Emporer had enough backstory in the original trilogy to be honest.

Force Awakens doesn’t set the First Order up as the rulers of the galaxy, it sets up the Republic as that. If anything the First Order are militant political extremists. Snoke doesn’t exactly fit into that.

I guess the problem is more that Palpatine, the Empire and the Republic game first so while I can see where the First Order comes from (Bloodline helps a lot with that) I don’t really get how Snoke fits into the picture. Uber powerful dark lords don’t just rise out of nowhere. Snoke is easily a match for Palpatine both in scope of is ambition and his power. So where was Snoke, who is Snoke?

If the original films didn’t exist then Snoke probably is fine as he is. This is Episode 8. It’s not actually a clean slate. It’s a continuation of a story, so it’s kind of wierd to give us no clue.

Im sure there is a book coming out that will explain everything.

Can anyone please explain to me why the First Order was doing pot shots at the cruisers for almost 2 hours of movie when they totally obliterated is bridge with just two lowly TIE Fighters?
I would be just happy to get that part explained to me. Please.

Why doesn't the any in the dozen or so of Star Destroyers or in the Mega Star Destroyer send a little squadron of bombers... no... even fighters... to attack the cruiser? They could do it at the beginning.
What happened afterwards?

It's not that they run out of fighters, when we can see lots of them in the hangars.

Why that ridiculous slow chase between two capital ships for hours?

To give Finn time to do something in the movie.

8 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Can anyone please explain to me why the First Order was doing pot shots at the cruisers for almost 2 hours of movie when they totally obliterated is bridge with just two lowly TIE Fighters?

The excuse they give in the movie is that the capital ships can't provide "cover" anymore because the Raddus is too far away, and thus the bombardement is the only weapon they have. It's not as if micro jumps were ever a thing, of course. Or that (at least imperial) fleets had always accompanying Corvettes.

But military decisions have always been ridiculously stupid in Star Wars

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The excuse they give in the movie is that the capital ships can't provide "cover" anymore because the Raddus is too far away, and thus the bombardement is the only weapon they have. It's not as if micro jumps were ever a thing, of course. Or that (at least imperial) fleets had always accompanying Corvettes.

But military decisions have always been ridiculously stupid in Star Wars

What?
All of sudden Fighters and Bombers don't work when a bit too far from their motherships?
Are they cheap RC Car toys or what? Are they tethered to their motherships?

They went there, destroyed the Cruiser's hangar and all fighters inside, the bridge with Leia and Ackbar inside and went back home for the lunch, then they couldn't go back there and do some more damage?
Kylos shuttle cannot operate too far of the mothership either?
Geez, just land on the cruiser and board it! You have the First Order fleet with you!

I cannot believe you people cannot see this, the entire thing that puts everyone in movement in this movie, as anything else than a PLOT HOLE the size of Sagittarius A*. It's stupid!

8 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

What?
All of sudden Fighters and Bombers don't work when a bit too far from their motherships?
Are they cheap RC Car toys or what? Are they tethered to their motherships?

To be fair, it was established in the OT that TIEs can't get far from their base. The dimensions might be misleading because the supremacy is huge

But yes, it's a stupid explanation

Entire subplots that lead nowhere. Worst space battle in the whole saga. Characters that act totally random and that in the end whatever they do matters nothing. Entire rewrite of what the Force is, Force powers taken virtually out of the director's cloaca, literal burning of the lore and tradition of the franchise. Flat undeveloped characters like Snoke or Phasma that evolve nothing and die pointlessly leaving absolutely zero imprint on the story...

People calling this the best Star Wars movie ever!

Dude, there are quite a few people here who expressed the same opinion, me included.

Btw, I am really pissed that the silencer doesnt have missiles ingame now.

I'm with a lot of people in here.

Was it a horrible, badly made film? No. But did I dislike a lot of the narrative, editing and character choices? **** yes.

Some moments I really loved, but some I totally hated. And WAY too long. Cut out all of Del Toro's stuff and find a better way to include Finn and Rose. And think up a better reason why the FO can't get the cruiser. Have them limping through a nebula or something so that scanners and targeting doesn't work but also hyperdrive doesn't. Not just empty boring space and some crappy excuse of range.

About a 7/10 for me. I liked almost all the payoffs to the major plot points (especially Snoke, that stuff is right up my alley! ). But, man, the journey to them was really, really lacking.

Nothing has any room to breathe, every scene has to have a little topper to it no matter what characters are in it. I just didn't feel attached to any of the characters in there, really, and I don't feel like I was given the chance to.

So I saw the movie today and I hate being so right I called this over a year ago its just empire again.

Rey was just painful to watch next to no emotion just flat badly delivered lines made worse by how much better mark was in every scene.

Finn went back to being a cowardly scumbag who needed a woman to make him care *yawn*

Poe was a bit better but not really developed.

Kylo was actually much better but still an idiot.

Smoke was just a waste of time but honestly I saw that coming.

Some of the CGI was shockingly bad specifically rey sitting on the rock in the long shot and Finn and rose on the animal.

Still hate hux.

The Leia in space thing was bs.

Its not bad enough to hate but its not a good movie its certainly not great, if it wasn't star wars this'd be an average film forgotten in a week.

2 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

its just empire again.

I mean, it wasn't good, but it was a long, long way from being an Empire retread.

For me it was a mashup of ESB, ROTJ, Hunger Games and GOTG.

It is just a bad film.

Developing an introducing force powers are one thing, giving Luke God like creator powers, being able to manifest physical objects across the galaxy is another... Could have used those powers better than a self image and golden dice... how about a pretend fleet while we are at it?

So... reminds you of generic young adult action films? That I can see at least.

4 minutes ago, Kentucky Fried Ewok said:

For me it was a mashup of ESB, ROTJ, Hunger Games and GOTG.

It is just a bad film.

You forgot about the end battle taken from Lord of th Rings. Helms deep mixed with the Grond ram, ad Falcon for Rohan cavelery. Also the Harry Potter mirror.

7 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

I mean, it wasn't good, but it was a long, long way from being an Empire retread.

They just altered the order of the assault on hoth and bookended the film with it instead of having it all at the start.

The trip to casino world was just bespin with deltoro switched with lando for the double cross.

Like empire there wasn't an actual space battle.

Its not scene for scene but its not its own movie.

3 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

They just altered the order of the assault on hoth and bookended the film with it instead of having it all at the start.

The trip to casino world was just bespin with deltoro switched with lando for the double cross.

Like empire there wasn't an actual space battle.

Its not scene for scene but its not its own movie.

They also have completely different character arcs, tone and pacing. Seems to me you've been so determined to be right a year ago that you've come up with a very stupid opinion and backed it up with a couple of very half baked points.

13 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

They also have completely different character arcs, tone and pacing. Seems to me you've been so determined to be right a year ago that you've come up with a very stupid opinion and backed it up with a couple of very half baked points.

Seems to me your taking this really personal for no good reason.

You can disagree but really no need for insults.