5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why? We have several historical examples where former military dictatorships demilitarized heavily.

The problem is:
The SW galaxy works on the principle of a better connected age of sail. We have pirates and smugglers everywhere. You need fleets to project power and law across the galaxy. It is simply mindboggling that the Republic was like "You know what guys? Lets scrap all those ships and leave the law enforcement duties to the sectors. Doesn't matter whether this would be a logistical nightmare." "But they have to create their militias from scratch." "Doesn't matter!"

12 minutes ago, KellenC said:

Also, this means that StarKiller Base was an even bigger waste of resources. We've seen (so far) the First Order has Dreadnoughts, Snokes Super Ship, Loads of Star Destroyers and Legions of troopers. They could have used the SKB budget to build more of this stuff and just walked into Republic Space with no one to stop them. I mean, this whole movie shows how outmatched Leias resistance are.

That assumes that SKB was built in some few years. We know the first DS took decades. What if it was too far ahead to reallocate ressources? What if the Republic was way larger when SKB construction started? We don‘t know any of that, but that goes both ways. It could easily be plausible too, so it‘s on you if you are bothered by it because you chose to be.

9 minutes ago, RogueLeader42 said:

The problem is:
The SW galaxy works on the principle of a better connected age of sail. We have pirates and smugglers everywhere. You need fleets to project power and law across the galaxy. It is simply mindboggling that the Republic was like "You know what guys? Lets scrap all those ships and leave the law enforcement duties to the sectors. Doesn't matter whether this would be a logistical nightmare." "But they have to create their militias from scratch." "Doesn't matter!"

They had 30 years to adapt. Is it mindboggling to say: „You know what guys? We think a huge centralized navy that can easily be abused is a bad idea. Let‘s scrap all those ships over the next 25 years and leave law enforcement duties to the sectors. Let‘s coordinate so we can hand over sovereignty back, in proper fashion.“ ?

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That assumes that SKB was built in some few years. We know the first DS took decades. What if it was too far ahead to reallocate ressources? What if the Republic was way larger when SKB construction started? We don‘t know any of that, but that goes both ways. It could easily be plausible too, so it‘s on you if you are bothered by it because you chose to be.

They had 30 years to adapt. Is it mindboggling to say: „You know what guys? We think a huge centralized navy that can easily be abused is a bad idea. Let‘s scrap all those ships over the next 25 years and leave law enforcement duties to the sectors. Let‘s coordinate so we can hand over sovereignty back, in proper fashion.“ ?

Leaving something like this as a plot hole isn't a matter of whether I choose to be bothered by it. It just doesn't hold up, and isn't particularly good for the story.

Ultimately the reason they've gone this direction is so that we can reset back to 'Big Bad Empire vs Plucky Band of Rebels' but you could do that in a way that made more sense. Destroying Hosnian did take out NR Command and Control. Sector fleets could be scattered and disorganised by the sudden change. First Order takes advantage to push hard and take territory.

All of that is fine, and also sets up the third movie where your heroes can reconnect with a decent sized force and come up with a plan to counter attack and stop the First Order from winning.

What we have instead is that literally the only good guys seem to be on the Millenium Falcon and the First Order has already basically won.

I imagine, given the themes they're going for here, what we'll get next time round is emotional speech giving causing the people to spontaneously rise up etc etc but to be honest the only way I see this ending in the necessary heroes victory is going to be the liberal use of some Deus ex Machina.

9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That assumes that SKB was built in some few years. We know the first DS took decades. What if it was too far ahead to reallocate ressources? What if the Republic was way larger when SKB construction started? We don‘t know any of that, but that goes both ways. It could easily be plausible too, so it‘s on you if you are bothered by it because you chose to be.

They had 30 years to adapt. Is it mindboggling to say: „You know what guys? We think a huge centralized navy that can easily be abused is a bad idea. Let‘s scrap all those ships over the next 25 years and leave law enforcement duties to the sectors. Let‘s coordinate so we can hand over sovereignty back, in proper fashion.“ ?

It is implied that the whole disarmament took place in a few years. While they were knowing the remaining Imperial forces fled to the unknown regions. And after the First Order emerged the Republic was mostly "Nah, they won't do anything."
Btw: It is described that the whole "sovereignity to the sectors" didn't even work and piracy and smuggling had a big time in the years after the disarmament.

Just now, KellenC said:

Ultimately the reason they've gone this direction is so that we can reset back to 'Big Bad Empire vs Plucky Band of Rebels' but you could do that in a way that made more sense. Destroying Hosnian did take out NR Command and Control. Sector fleets could be scattered and disorganised by the sudden change. First Order takes advantage to push hard and take territory.

[...]

What we have instead is that literally the only good guys seem to be on the Millenium Falcon and the First Order has already basically won.

I imagine, given the themes they're going for here, what we'll get next time round is emotional speech giving causing the people to spontaneously rise up etc etc but to be honest the only way I see this ending in the necessary heroes victory is going to be the liberal use of some Deus ex Machina.

We clearly did not watch the same movie.

It is not a reset to small rebellion vs big bad empire. We see BOTH SIDES lose almost everything. Now we have a situation that is a first for big screen Star Wars: low tech on both sides. The FO has some few SDs left. The Resistance has some unspecified Allies left. That is way different than where Episode4 started!

They brought up those allies so often that you can‘t call them an ex machina anymore. We heard several times that they are out there.

3 minutes ago, RogueLeader42 said:

It is implied that the whole disarmament took place in a few years. While they were knowing the remaining Imperial forces fled to the unknown regions. And after the First Order emerged the Republic was mostly "Nah, they won't do anything."

Where? I missed that in all the books I‘ve read, and definitely in the movies.

The First Order emerging led to a huge debate. You think it‘s not possible for the republic to tolerate sympathizers? We can observe something extremely similar right now in the US, and there are again more historical examples to make paralyzing debates very plausible.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

We clearly did not watch the same movie.

It is not a reset to small rebellion vs big bad empire. We see BOTH SIDES lose almost everything. Now we have a situation that is a first for big screen Star Wars: low tech on both sides. The FO has some few SDs left. The Resistance has some unspecified Allies left. That is way different than where Episode4 started!

They brought up those allies so often that you can‘t call them an ex machina anymore. We heard several times that they are out there.

You mean the allies that are:

"Receiving the message...they're just not coming..."

Or words to that effect spoken immediately prior to the evacuation on the falcon. I expect these will be the people who come through in the end after some kind of big speech or similar but right now they clearly don't give a crap about Leia and her Resistance.

I'm not sure the FO are as weakened as you seem to think:

Poe: We have a chance to take out a dreadnought!

A. Not The. Which implies there are more out there. Also neither Kylo nor Hux seem particularly perturbed by the state of the fleet, certainly don't seem to think they're suddenly seriously weakened although admittedly a lot of that may be due to the focus on taking over from Snoke.

28 minutes ago, KellenC said:

In fairness, people may just not like the new style or think it works.

I didn't bring up the humour in what I said earlier but yeah it also didn't really land in several places.

I made excactly the same complaint about Thor: Ragnarok which I found just bizarre in places.

Bruce: I'm scared if I go Hulk again I'll never turn back.

(Time Passes)

LOL Hulk Smash!

Same thing here.

Bomber Explodes, half a dozen people die.

LOL BB-8 did a thing

Not everything can be Guardians of the Galaxy.

I enjoyed it and the reaction from the cinema I was in at the time seemed to be one of good times all round, yet you come on here and it seems to have been the worst film in history.

21 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

We clearly did not watch the same movie.

It is not a reset to small rebellion vs big bad empire. We see BOTH SIDES lose almost everything. Now we have a situation that is a first for big screen Star Wars: low tech on both sides. The FO has some few SDs left. The Resistance has some unspecified Allies left. That is way different than where Episode4 started!

They brought up those allies so often that you can‘t call them an ex machina anymore. We heard several times that they are out there.

Where? I missed that in all the books I‘ve read, and definitely in the movies.

The First Order emerging led to a huge debate. You think it‘s not possible for the republic to tolerate sympathizers? We can observe something extremely similar right now in the US, and there are again more historical examples to make paralyzing debates very plausible.

Hux's 1st order is much bigger than we've been shown (apparently) but the explanation is nothing more than a 2 minute cutscene in the new bf2 missions. The resistance (and by extension the new republic) only figured out exactly how "big bad" the 1st order was literally when starkiller base went pop.

@ 6:55

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Where? I missed that in all the books I‘ve read, and definitely in the movies.

The First Order emerging led to a huge debate. You think it‘s not possible for the republic to tolerate sympathizers? We can observe something extremely similar right now in the US, and there are again more historical examples to make paralyzing debates very plausible.

Wasn't it described as "in the years following"? Years not decades.

I know that it is possible. But still pretty hand wavy for how the SW galaxy works.

Just now, Viktus106 said:

I enjoyed it and the reaction from the cinema I was in at the time seemed to be one of good times all round, yet you come on here and it seems to have been the worst film in history.

It's definitely not the worst film in history, and I did enjoy bits of it but it does have a lot of things I think are problems and they've only bothered me more the more I think about it.

1 minute ago, KellenC said:

It's definitely not the worst film in history, and I did enjoy bits of it but it does have a lot of things I think are problems and they've only bothered me more the more I think about it.

Yup. It just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Switch your brain off at the door, laugh at the jokes and gape at the special effects and it's a good movie, just don't take it too seriously or think too hard about the story, it's place within the greater universe or implications going ahead. That way lies disappointment.

I totally liked tho movie

It has some flaws but still, its absolutely enjoyable.

I dont want to discuss things, that have been allready OVERdiscussed.

Just want to give a comment to the rise of the FO.

in history we have an analog exemple. Hitler rose from a destroyed germany and has build up a strong army.

Apeacement policy of the other nations around germany allowed that.

I see the same thing with the FO.

Greetings

H

23 minutes ago, KellenC said:

You mean the allies that are:
"Receiving the message...they're just not coming..."
Or words to that effect spoken immediately prior to the evacuation on the falcon. I expect these will be the people who come through in the end after some kind of big speech or similar but right now they clearly don't give a crap about Leia and her Resistance.
I'm not sure the FO are as weakened as you seem to think:
Poe: We have a chance to take out a dreadnought!
A. Not The. Which implies there are more out there. Also neither Kylo nor Hux seem particularly perturbed by the state of the fleet, certainly don't seem to think they're suddenly seriously weakened although admittedly a lot of that may be due to the focus on taking over from Snoke.

Yes, those allies. Of course there will be a subplot to rally them. I don't see why that has to be bad.

That was Poe talking before they took out several Stardestroyers.

25 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

Hux's 1st order is much bigger than we've been shown (apparently) but the explanation is nothing more than a 2 minute cutscene in the new bf2 missions. The resistance (and by extension the new republic) only figured out exactly how "big bad" the 1st order was literally when starkiller base went pop.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. I'm not sure how reliable those games are for canon discussions, but it's certainly something to keep in mind. I was under the impression that much of the FO forces were gathered for the attack.

26 minutes ago, RogueLeader42 said:

Wasn't it described as "in the years following"? Years not decades.

I know that it is possible. But still pretty hand wavy for how the SW galaxy works.

We do have 28 years between Endor and TFA/TLJ. Some of that was spent fighting the remnants of the Empire, and some at the other end to debate the threat of the FO

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, those allies. Of course there will be a subplot to rally them. I don't see why that has to be bad.

That was Poe talking before they took out several Stardestroyers.

It's not necessarily bad, but it is basically a reset to the OT timeline which is what I originally said. Rallying the disparate bands of randoms and making them into a fighting force is what they've just spent three seasons of Rebels and one movie (Rogue One) establishing.

My original point was that in order to get to this storyline, which is the classic plucky underdog vs evil empire stuff, they've basically had to give the New Republic enforced stupidity and sacrifice a bunch of logic on both sides of the conflict.

19 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Some of that was spent fighting the remnants of the Empire

That was done after one year

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

And now they've also lost...

All Resistance T-70 X-Wings
All Resistance RZ-2 A-Wings
All Resistance B/SF-17 Bombers
All Resistance capital ships and most personal
The support of all their former allies (apparently)

Basically the entire Resistance can now fit on a single small frieghter. Fortunately it's a frieghter with the most powerful plot shielding in the known universe...

...I don't know about you guys, but I'm excited for Episode IX! The Falcon solo's everything (no pun intended)! How can this not be a good way to lead in to the final episode of a new trilogy?

I don't think the Resistance will destroy the First Order in Ep. IX. Kylo will probably die, but why reset the villains once more if there is a new trilogy coming?

1 hour ago, RogueLeader42 said:

Btw: It is described that the whole "sovereignity to the sectors" didn't even work and piracy and smuggling had a big time in the years after the disarmament.

But not because of a reason of lack of military forces, but because local governments don't see a reason to invest resources into it. Basically the star wars galaxy had a similar development like earth after the end of the cold war, minus 9/11 ... I bet we see a re-militarisation in IX ... which would fit the Zeitgeist as well.

forum fixed itself.

10 minutes ago, KellenC said:

It's not necessarily bad, but it is basically a reset to the OT timeline which is what I originally said. Rallying the disparate bands of randoms and making them into a fighting force is what they've just spent three seasons of Rebels and one movie (Rogue One) establishing.

My original point was that in order to get to this storyline, which is the classic plucky underdog vs evil empire stuff, they've basically had to give the New Republic enforced stupidity and sacrifice a bunch of logic on both sides of the conflict.

...not to mention destroy absolutely everything that the characters in those three seasons of Rebels, Rogue One and the Original Trilogy fought and sacrificed for in the process.

I mean goddamnit Disney. I get you want to move the timeline ahead and go in your own direction and milk the franchise like a blue milk space walrus for years to come. That's fine. But did you really have to crush everything quite so heavy-handedly? Han and Leia's love ends in divorce, estrangement and patricide. Luke fails as a teacher and contemplates murdering his own nephew - the son of his best friend and his sister - in cold blood. Chewie gets ignored by Leia after his life debt friend dies. The Republic is totally obliterated by Empire fanboys, along with everything else our heroes worked so hard to accomplish.

That rhythmic crunching sound you hear, that's not the sound of First Order jackboots, it's a mouse jumping up and down on top of the Original Trilogy's broken bones.

10 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

Which is a point that they drive home a _lot_. There's a lot of really basic stuff that doesn't happen because the leadership of the First Order is badly inexperienced.

Indeed, the captain if the Fulminatrix (the dreadnaught) even calls it out, saying they should have launched fighters 5 minutes ago.

1 hour ago, KellenC said:

...Wow knowing the explanation actually made this much worse.

Reading the aftermath trilogy with Mon Mothma explaining why this is necessary will probably change your mind... The demilitarization moral dilemma is great in my opinion.

10 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...not to mention destroy absolutely everything that the characters in those three seasons of Rebels, Rogue One and the Original Trilogy fought and sacrificed for in the process.

I mean goddamnit Disney. I get you want to move the timeline ahead and go in your own direction and milk the franchise like a blue milk space walrus for years to come. That's fine. But did you really have to crush everything quite so heavy-handedly? Han and Leia's love ends in divorce, estrangement and patricide. Luke fails as a teacher and contemplates murdering his own nephew - the son of his best friend and his sister - in cold blood. Chewie gets ignored by Leia after his life debt friend dies. The Republic is totally obliterated by Empire fanboys, along with everything else our heroes worked so hard to accomplish.

That rhythmic crunching sound you hear, that's not the sound of First Order jackboots, it's a mouse jumping up and down on top of the Original Trilogy's broken bones.

It reminds me of how world war I was called the war to end all wars, yet still World War II happened..

The lack of happy endings, while sad, is also why so many people love Empire Strikes back.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Yup. It just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Switch your brain off at the door, laugh at the jokes and gape at the special effects and it's a good movie, just don't take it too seriously or think too hard about the story

And that is what Star Wars is about.

54 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Yup. It just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Switch your brain off at the door, laugh at the jokes and gape at the special effects and it's a good movie, just don't take it too seriously or think too hard about the story, it's place within the greater universe or implications going ahead. That way lies disappointment.

What you said applies for each and every SW movie. None of them hold up to scrutiny. The way I see it, people are mostly getting annoyed by things that didn't bother them in previous episodes.

- Why can fighters fire through shields? - Luke also did that in ANH. Apparently shields work differently than how we thought.

- Rey is a nobody now! - Anakin Skywalker himself was a nobody. He had a slave mom and we only got a handwave explanation about his father.

- Snoke was built up to be a villain then got killed in 5 minutes! - Count Dooku was built up as a villain, then got killed in 5 minutes. Heck, before the Prequel Trilogy, we had no idea who Palpatine was, either. And as soon as he Luke and Vader weren't duelling, he died in minutes, in an also rather undignified way.

- Leia defied the laws of physics and reality! - So does the Force. IIRC people were really angry at George for trying to make the Force be more "scientific" with the midichlorians and all. Now that the Force is magic again, people are really angry. *sigh*

- Where is the Republic fleet, how did the FO conquer the galaxy? - Where was the Old Republic fleet during the blockade of Naboo? Oh wait, they didn't have one. They didn't have anything except for local militias until the end of AOTC. The FO didn't conquer the galaxy yet, like 2 days have passed between TFA and TLJ

- Casino scene was pointless detour that dragged the movie! - Yeah, like Jabba's palace in ROTJ, Tatooine in TPM, Naboo in AOTC, the Anoat asteroid field in ESB... Some character development happened there, but not a whole lot that really affected the main plot.

- Luke was acting weird and stupid! - Like Yoda in ESB.

- Phasma was useless! - So was Boba Fett.

The list could go on. I'm not going to act like TLJ is absolutely flawless, of course it's not. But I can't really understand why people say this movie "ruined" Star Wars. I can actually appreciate it for trying new things for once, not just copypasting like TFA did.

2 minutes ago, Captain Pellaeon said:

I can actually appreciate it for trying new things for once, not just copypasting like TFA did.

....and yet, you've just posted a huge list of ways it apparently copy/pasted from the rest of the series. Are you trying to have your argument both ways, perchance?