Star Wars 8 - The Last Jedi - Reviews (SPOILERS!!)

By IG88E, in X-Wing Off-Topic

OK, plowed through some 22 pages, not more time right now.

Oh my. this thread has more salt then that last mining moon/planet(oid) (whatever was its name, Krait?).

Wall of text.
tl,dr: I liked it, it is definitely better than TFA.

I was going with very low expectations into it. TFA was at best mediocre, a railroaded piece of second hand copy, complete with eyelashes of doom.

My full wall of text comment on it here:
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/196157-the-force-awakens-your-reaction-spoilers/?page=32#comment-1958039


TLJ: Seen with the eyes of
a child: awesome.
a teen: awesome, despite physics problems.
an adult: mediocre-good, has a number of problems (see below).

I also only watched the first TLF trailer, then avoided everything else. Partly not to be spoiled, partly annoyed by the R1 trailers and reclip, I am not trusting Disney trailers anymore.
I was going out quite satisfied, I liked the film. Clearly not a masterpice, but none of the Star Wars films is that. Objectively seen the OT is also quite trashy. For me TLJ is mediocre if compared to normal films, compared to Star Wars in itself, a good film.

Maybe I am actually will watching a second time in cinema, which I absolutely did not want to do with TFA. Do not even talk about the I-III (I liked the overarching intrigues, the rest was a pain).

Due to time constraints we could not go together, my better half went with the oldest child the other day. She liked the film a lot better than TFA as well. Child was very fond of BB-8 (not that unexpected, SW are children films after all).

So my thoughts:
-------------
THE GOOD
The film kept me immersed. Only at one point I was thrown out of suspension, was when Luke was appearing on the salt moon. It was like, "NOOOO, not cheap railroading again" until I thought, wait maybe he really is not there physically?

The visuals.

The details. Just one example, the rain drops on Kylo.

TFA was cheap railroading all the film. TLJ is a lot less forced encounters.

Resistance plans failing.

Rey parents (at least for the moment) being total nobodies! Yes! At last, not again a Skywalker steering the fates of trillions of sentients.

Snoke not being a giant, just having a Lord Farquaard complex :)
Kylo's sucession of Snoke. The Supreme leader is dead, long live the supreme leader.
Still constant biggering and bullying between Kylo and Hux. Both simultaneously putting their failure onto Rey. I think both Kylo and Snoke underestimate(d) Hux. And an interesting conflict left for the last film.

The throne room fight, awesome.

Poe still totally reckless, reckless to a degree that it will get him killed in the end (and killed lots of others already!). Really fitting for a fighter ace. But also slowly growing.

DJ being a slimebag and selling them out. Real scum, such a slap into the face.

The First Order iron in the laundry.

The bleak outlook end of the film. Remember ESB? And actually it is bit more closed in itself then ESB, which is just an unsatisfying bridge gap in a triology.

The Kylo and Rey interplay. You really did not know how it would end.

------------
THINGS I do not see as a problem

Some complain about Chekhov's gun. Having more than 22 years of GM experience (passion play style, not dungeon crawling) I am not of Chekhov's opinion. Cause sometimes you want red herrings, like Luke's X-wing. At the very least, Luke's X-wing can be seen as a hommage or easter egg. If you apply only Chekhov, you never can have easter-eggs.

Luke does NOT die from any light saber wounds. He does from exhaustion. Kylo clearly says to Rey "try that and you die" - Luke does a LOT more than this, also remember he already connected to Leia before the whole projection. And he wanted to die on Ahch-To.

Snoke dying. He clearly was too full of himself, and too confident. In a way he is like the whole First Order. All just Wannabee-Bad-Asses, trying sooo hard to be like the Empire, Palpatine and Vader. Him underestimating/misreading Kylo. And clearly Rey and Kylo can connect even without him, so even here he was overconfident.

Some here ask, why is there no Interdictor. Caveat of not having seen the Clone War cartoon series, and not having seen Rebel season 3 (not available here yet, please do not spoil!), the only Interdictor in film is the one in Rebels, and it fails catastrophically. It is also quite a liability to trade and a risk for your own Empire/1st Order ships, even in normal operation.

Holdo not explaining a thing to Poe. Poe is less rank then her. And they did not know if there was a mole somewhere.

People here comparing it to all the moviesd of the last years and saying it's a rip-off of A+B+C+D. There is always a certain style of aesthetics, ambience, camera moving - call it fashion or maybe its just an effect what is right now tought at moviemaking schools/courses/hands-on-education (just compare movies from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s etc)(At least we are away now from the late 90s-style cameras in every action scene moving so fast you cannot see anything) - so of course movies remind you of other movies. And there are only some very few archetypes of storytelling, of course stuff is similar!

People here complaining about Luke contradicting some Lukas interview. You know, Luke can be wrong, don't you? Regardless how this turns out, I really like his stance on Yedi and Sith using the force totally wrong, they do not have the right to do this.

Canto Bight: I think it needed to be shown how oblivious many are to the galaxie's future. How cruelty is deeply rooted still (or again?) And to show how the resistance spark gained ground in the end nevertheless. You could connect to the kids, you knew who they were (Not some random people or scenes like the celebrations in the remastered OTs)

Who says that DJ is just a random hacker? Maybe he is exactly this superhacker, but just lost horribly to the guy in white, including loosing the plumberry(?) brooch to the guy in white, and thus being thrown into jail cause being broke, not paying his debts? Remember, they throw Rose and Finn into jail for just a parking violation.

---------------
AMBIVALENT

The clipping - a lot more coherent this time. But still, Finns arc and esp Phasma got the short end of the stick, feels like they had to clip a lot to get down to 2.5hrs.

Yoda suddenly active and physically affecting the world, before that, force ghosts only acted as guides (caveat, me having not seen Clone wars series). And - while he was funny, being the funny clown is not really fitting to Yoda. (At least he was not bad-CGI hopping around like being on amphetamins+way too many energy drinks).
OK, maybe Yoda found it neccessary to actively manifest physical effects, critical stage for the Jedi...

The Dreadnought's military role is a stupid superweapon one. Why only having big guns downwards, why not having them along the spine, so you can fire upwards as well.

I can accept the battering ram on the moon, after all the First Order is stupidly fond of giant symbols and weapons as demonstrations of power. But I do not like it. It is not really practical if you have orbit to space bombardment and really versatile atmospheric-capable heavy punching starfighters available. They would normally just destroy that slow thing once it is fielded, so why build such a vulnerable piece at all?

Not happening more at the dark side place on Ahch-To. I hope Rey gets teased a bit more by the Dark side in the last film.

Finn relapsing into his coward role. Poe especially, but even Finn and Rose responsible for soo many dead. Not sure yet what to think about this.

Astonished that they did not kill off Leia.

Holdos ram. Her being able to steer it alone. Would have been more fitting if some few skeleton crew and maybe a critically wounded Ackbar (to give him a worthy end as well, but maybe they wanted to not diminish Holdo's sacrifice) would have helped her steering and calculating the jump.
You need a really BIG ship (enough mass) to have an effect. Also it does need extreme precision in jumping, that's why it probably is not practical and not a common tactic. There might be some taboo on it, otherwise it woúld be a common tactics to just hyperspace jump bombs/susicide ships into the middle of enemy fleets or into enemy star system's suns, causing them to go nova.
I think Holdo gambled and got lucky, jumping precisely where she needed.

It would have been much more logical if only one certain ship type and individual has the tech to track. So it was a bit forced explanation, and really stramge, that every capital in the First Order fleet suddenly has this new tech.

The BSF17 bombers make no sense, sorry.

Deus-Ex BB8. That, however, is a Star Wars tradition, compare Deus-Ex R2D2 and Deus-Ex Chopper.

---------------------

THE BAD

Still not explained where Snoke comes from. Still not explained where the First Order is from, and how they have that much resources. I like reading. I like vast tomes. However, whereading a book is REQUIRED to understand a film, than it IS a bad film. Then you can just stay with the books, no need to even make the film or watch it.
Partly this is TFA's fault though, as that movie did set the premise/proposition for the whole new triology. It should have been explained there already.

Maz hopping around like being on amphetamines+too many energy drinks.

Leia space scene.

Two lowly TIE fighter soo easily critting the Raddus bridge, while the Raddus clearly has megatons of shielding power left later on. Clearly they were dealed the Critical hit card "Viewport Rupture" under the shield. Sad that Ackbar met such an unworthy demise.

They still have no grasp on distances and view distances in space, how vastly space actually is.

The runaway chase could work if everyone has the same acceleration, and the First Order was too late out with accelerating. Then the starfightrs could actually not keep up before running out of fuel. But still, why did they not just microjump some cruisers or destroyers to a place in front of the Raddus, then shooting her down?
Why not just send some missiles, these have to be faster than ships, otherwies they would never work?

The Dreadnought's actually make sense to me now. They're purely artillery ships with a few point defense turrets, but otherwise the inner space is the power systems and ammunition for the big guns, plus hanger space. They aren't designed to go toe to toe with other capital ships or take a pounding from fighters. They need escorts to cover them so they can bombard targets from a safe distance.

If the flying Penguins catch on as kid toys I'm going to be eating a lot of Cornish hens in front of children

So how much did snoke have to pay The Faceless Men to bring a wayward assassin in to kill Luke? That's the real plot point I want to know about...

( hey kids, don't smoke or you'll look like Snoke)

9 hours ago, Kieransi said:

For those of you who didn't read Legacy (and I don't really blame you) the way this plotline would've gone is that Rey gets captured, converted to the Dark Side, has a brief romance with Kylo, and then confronts all the Sith, kills Kylo, fights Snoke, almost killing him as well, all with the guidance of Luke's spirit.

Oh, my. Haven't seen/read Legacy, but I so wanted virtually all of that to happen Different strokes, I suppose...

A Lot of Macguffins.

That is sort of the problem, the main plot line is rather cringe-worthy. You can poke more holes in that then you can do with the Death Star Trench run before Rogue One. But quite a few surprises, I honestly wasn't able to predict the movie. It did some better with some characters but not a lot of other ones. Yes it killed of characters but not exactly the ones I expected and not necessarily the way I would have predicted.

Rey- Still the Mary Sue, you get a lot more on her background and develops her connection to Kylo Ren but it still doesn't explain her force sensitivity. It does make her slightly more vulnerable and not in a stupid run away and pass out but it is better than Episode 7.

Kylo Ren- I actually like his character more. It really improved and the move explained what was wrong with him in the past movie with Snoke chastising him telling him to remove that stupid thing and he is just a scared child with a mask. In a tantrum he destroys the mask which was great. He still has his tantrums don't get him wrong he is dark but now he realizes the true goal of the Sith and has completed his training. He is now a Sith Lord, the Master and more.

Finn- Starts out okay as a side story plot element. It gives him a relationship with a new character but he is still the run away guy.

Poe- Much better development, He along with Rey had one of the most character development. I would actually call PS 9 Poe the TLJ Poe and PS 8 the TFA Poe. He realize that heroism is not what is important.

BB-8- The hero that does everything. No this droid cannot be beat. This droid steals shuttles breaks Fin out of a detention block and pilots an AT-ST.

General Leia She actually doesn't die in this move, although with the passing of the Late Carrie Fischer and the turmoil of Episode 9 I wouldn't be surprised if it opens with a funeral scene as she just passes from old age. They actually fake you out when Kylo's Wingmen blow up the bridge and kill the fleet command to include Admiral Akbar. You actually see her drifting in space and for some reason humans can be exposed to the vacuum of space and be just fine. However the main plot line she was on was rather dragging on. It doesn't bring on the suspense.

Luke- Brings back his character a bit and on why he feels responsible for Ben, does a good job in both as a reluctant mentor, a teacher that blames himself for his failures, and then how he completes the circle. He does have an Obi Wan moment but he doesn't vanish when Kylo Strikes him but at the end of his confrontation he does pass on into the force.

Yoda- He is back, only briefly to teach Young Skywalker about the future of the Jedi.

General Dodana (or is it Reiken?) - In the battle for new-hoth some Rebel General steps in front of the trenches. Looks like Dodana but I guess isn't.

Snoke- We got to see him, he is rather powerful and Rey couldn't knock him down. He still is the mastermind as he can simply pull and push at will. He didn't see the betrayal from Kylo as he completes his training and becomes the master seeking Rey as his apprentice. And the betrayal was in a rather good way more of an opportunity than an actual complicated scheme like the Rescue of Han Solo in RotJ. Still it leaves it open to still being a plan all along.

General Hux- He sort of turns into Kylo's b*tch. The whole Imperials always falling for the most insulting Rebel delay tactic in the start was cringe. His character has been degraded a little but not the worst. He is more of Motti and not Tarken.

Captain Phasma? Stick to Brian of Toth, Her character has become the whipping-girl of the Imperials. I don't know if you see her die as she gets a Boba Fet Ending. Her final confrontation with Fin was rather dragged on and forgettable. Her scenes were more filler that was suppose to provide suspense but just dragged on so much that you could have cut her out completely and the movie would be fine.

Weird Big Eye Alien- You don't see her much but all she does is gives a side quest Macguffin that doesn't even work.

So some new Charachters

Porg(s)- Furry Penguins, The only one of them I liked was the one that Chewie roasted. Not the other stupid ones looking at Chewie to guilt him into not eating them. Seriously if your best defense is "I'm so cute don't eat me" sorry tasty, but Wookies like Humans are Apex predators, and if you are not running as you see me roasting your friend you are the next meal.

Rose- A new Resistance person you briefly see her sister as someone that predictably gets offed in a doomed bomber at the start. So there is some character but she starts of as a groupie but develops romantically with Finn.

Evil BB-8- An Imperial BB unit who was able to spot BB-8 and cut a deal with the Scum Slicer guy. Speaking of when are Imperials getting their <Imperial Astromech> upgrades for X-wing?

Scum Slicer- Starts out okay with the whole there are no good guys.

Edited by Marinealver

I do kinda wish we had a situation where Kylo and Rey teamed up and left to join the Resistance, or start their own third faction.

I will say that @Azrapse is my hero, and I've agreed with every criticism and complaint he's leveled against this tragedy of a film. I'm so perplexed that Star Wars fans could think it was one of the better film installments that I was about to post the "I feel like I'm taking CRAZY PILLS!" meme until I saw that he also posted that.


I'm a pretty big Star Wars apologist, in that I'll often find in-world ways to justify and defend some of things that happen in a Star Wars film. Even I am left scratching my head after Episode 8.


For instance:

The Leia "Superman Flight": I didn't think this was preposterous because Leia survived in a vacuum for a few seconds. ****, I don't even think that space is a vacuum in Star Wars, since I think it's more of an "aether" theory of space, given that aerodynamics matter, sound carries through it, and that characters can walk around in it with just oxygen-masks on (see: Asteroid "cave" or Rebel Pilot ejection technology). No, it's preposterous because she survives an explosive decompression that jettisons her hundreds of yards with debris and still has enough presence of mind to pull off a Force-Pull that rivals anything Luke could do even after some focused sessions of training with Yoda. Luke had to struggle to pull a lightsaber two feet toward himself while Leia is able to pull the weight of her entire body hundreds of meters all after being completely disoriented. This is on par with Snoke's and Rey's seeming mastery of Force abilities with no apparent training or explanation needed as to how they achieved it, which makes a real mockery of what we know of the Force and how one learns it.

Yoda's now Zeus?: I actually think Yoda-Ghost was one of the best things of the film, with his laugh and his true-to-ESB appearance. But if Yoda could summon down tree-destroying hellfire from the sky as a Force Ghost, why don't he and Obi-Wan and Luke's ghost go fry Kylo? Nonsense, and giving ethereal force ghosts the ability to physically affect the 'mortal realm' is exactly the sort of Rule-Breaking nonsense that doesn't add anything and just raises a pile of questions... like why not use this ability a bunch in the past to get stuff done?


Holdo's Hyperspace Ram: A lot of defenders are saying that the Raddus could do that much damage, since with speed > c the force of such a collision would be massive. Uh, no one is doubting the math of that, but it ignores how hyperspace works in Star Wars. In Star Wars, you "jump into" and "jump out of" hyperspace. HYPER-SPACE is a separate from NORMAL-SPACE, like a different location or plane or phase, which is why it looks all wavy blue and other-dimensional.. That's the whole reason it's called Hyperspace... and it draws from old classic notions of how one might, in effect, travel faster than light. You could actually go faster than the speed of light (e.g. Star Trek's "warp speed" achieved through a warp bubble) or you could enter and exit actual space at different points, traveling in an alternative medium, giving the appearance of faster-than-light-speed. This risk in Hyperspace travel comes from either being on a path that would go too close to a significant gravity well, since this would pull you out of Hyperspace by interfering with your hyperdrive OR jumping out in something else (like a supernova explosion).

Think about when Han comes out of lightspeed at Alderaan, the very moment they exit they start getting hit by the debris from Alderaan...yet whilst in Hyperspace they didn't hit any of the debris. If they had just been "going super fast" a little bit of that debris on the edge of Alderaan's debris field would have obliterated the Falcon. But they went from "not existing on the normal plane of space" to "existing within Alderaan's debris field" at which point they started getting hit. Otherwise any debris or any other SHIP would pose a catastrophic risk to you if your hyperspace route overlapped with it. Hyperspace travel would be the most dangerous and deadly thing in the universe, because even the best Nav Comptuers and Astromechs couldn't plan for all the locations of every bit of debris and every other ship out there. Also, weaponized hyperspace would be so easy ... just hyperspace a GR75 with a droid pilot into the Emperor's ship. So if you hyperspaced through another ship you'd just "teleport" right through it... so weaponized hyperspace was not an easy solution to space battles, and hence why we never see it used in any of the Star Wars space battles (even though we see conventional, non-hyper-space ramming in many of the films). Even in Rogue One we see Rebel ships hyperspacing away right in the same region the Devastator is hyperspacing in from, yet whilst in Hyperspace these ships don't collide, it's only the ships not yet in hyperspace that hit the Devastator after it has exited hyperspace. In Han's "ain't like dustin' crops, Kid!" spiel he even says you don't want to "bounce to close to a supernova" with "bouncing" being synonymous with "jumping (out of)" hyperspace. Also, the ways in which hyperspace could be entered/exited/maintained had some sort of affect with gravity wells, where the hyperspace field could not be maintained in the presence of a sufficient gravity well. Which, (prior to TFA) made existing in Hyperspace right near a planet impossible, as your field would collapse and you'd be ripped out of Hyperspace (which is the same premise Interdictors work on), which is why you don't want a hyperspace course that would go through a star, because you'd be ripped out of Hyperspace in proximity of that star. This is also a reason why ships in Star Wars didn't (used to be able to) send or receive messages in hyperspace or fight in hyperspace. Whereas in Star Trek, where "warp speed" is just equivalent to going really really fast we see ships able to communicate and engage in combat with one another. So Holdo's weaponized hyperspace just craps all over the rules of the universe, like so much of TFA and TLJ did. And now instead of having a psuedo-science though consistent explanation as to why ships didnt just hyperspace into enemy ships/planets, now we have to ask "why the heck didn't anyone do this before at times that would have made as much or more sense to do so?"



Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

So much of the film just made no sense, even granting it the very generous goalpost of being merely consistent with "Star Wars Logic / Star Wars Physics"

  • Poe's single X-Wing taking out all of the dorsal batteries of the Dreadnaught in less than 30 seconds. Why have fighter pilots afraid of Star Destoyers at all? Remember all those missions in the old PC sims where Star Destroyers were terrifying? Or when Hobbies says "TWO X-Wings against a STAR DESTROYER?!?" in ESB. Heck, I guess Hobbie was implying that two X-Wings per star destroyer was overkill.... :D
  • Even if Poe took out all the guns of the Dreadnaught, uh weren't there still like a half-dozen Resurgent Star Destroyers in the immediate vicinity that could train all of their batteries on those bombers? I mean...it was a First Order FLEET, not just that one ship.
  • Why do space barrages now function like cannonballs?
  • Uh, how can two TIE Fighters destroy the entire bridge of a heavy warship while it still has perfectly functional shields?
  • Is Rose a psychic? Why does she know how the First Order is tracking the fleet? Sounds like some tech-babble from Scotty in a JJ Star Trek: "Well... it's been hypothesized at a Conference on Hyperspace Traveling that a tech could exist that I could disable in a convincing way and would only work on the "lead" ship in formation."
  • What kind of bullsh*t little hand-held locket beacon works all the way across the Galaxy?
  • I'm fine with Snoke getting a surprise demise, but WHO THE **** IS HE, HOW DID HE COME TO BUILD/CONTROL THE FIRST ORDER, AND HOW IS HE SO INCREDIBLY STRONG IN THE FORCE?
  • I'm fine with Rey's parents being nobodies, but then coupling that with her complete lack of training in the Force, how is she such a competent Force User? I assumed we'd at least find out Luke had trained her a bit too, then wiped her memory of it to protect her, and that she'd uncover that latent training with her "THE FORCE" recollection at the end of TFA. Nope, she is just a complete savant that went from no Force Powers in her first 20 years of life to having mastered several force abilities in the span of about a week or two.
  • Hey let's call Maz from hyperspace... oh look she's engaged in some Tom & Jerry style gunfight but still has time to talk to us and tell us a sex joke. Oh, good, this guy ALWAYS wears the same piece of jewelry and always is at the same building in the universe. Convenient!
  • Why does DJ only decide to break out of his cell after Finn and Rose are put into it?
  • How many coins could a BB8 chuck if a BB8 could chuck coins?
  • Why did I need a 10 minute "Free Willy" diversion with space horses?
  • Battering Ram Cannon? Ugh, that sounds like some stupid thing Piccolo would scream as he powers up and prepares to blast a Saiyan...
  • Why do the guns on both ends of Finn's speeder melt away, yet his exposed face doesn't melt off?
  • Rose falls for Finn in like, the two hours they've known each other???
  • How does that little kid at the end wield the Force and know the tale of Luke Skywalker, while presumably watching the Hyperspace jump of the Falcon (at least a few systems over)?
  • Why was there so much forced humor that wasn't funny?

Utter garbage, as both a film and as a piece of the Star Wars mythos.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy
2 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Ok, everybody complaining about Leia surviving in vacuum need to stop. It's completely possible.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/survival-in-space-unprotected-possible/

Leia was only out there for maybe 60 seconds. Chimpanzees have survived as long as 3.5 minutes with no long term damage. Add force power capabilities, and Star Wars medicine, and it was a perfectly reasonable scene.

I think the problem is twofold.

Firstly, Leia has shown little partiality to the force other than the odd "Luke", "Leia", "Luke" interaction and now she is manoeuvring herself through space while unconscious.

Secondly, and way more importantly, bless her, but Carrie Fisher has died. They have had a good long time to decide how to deal with Leia in Episode X, and the obvious answer is "Hey, we have already filmed her death scene. That should be sufficiently sad right there. Why don't we leave it there?" They could even do Luke having a moment on the island feeling a 'tremor in the force' as if my sister cried out in terror and was suddenly silenced...

imho

Basically,

TLJ is to Star Wars as Alien 3 was to ALIENS, except that Alien 3 didn't violate a whole ton of rules about how the universe of ALIENS functioned.

Leia's Force powers.

"...We need to go back." (Cloud city)

Danger sence/force intimidation (Kylo couldnt shoot her)

Trance+Force move (spacewalk)

I'm pretty sure Leia got some training from her brother in the last 20 years.

Edited by Rakaydos
3 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Leia's Force powers.

"...We need to go back." (Cloud city)

Danger sence/force intimidation (Kylo couldnt shoot her)

Trance+Force move (spacewalk)

I'm pretty sure Leia got some training from her brother in the last 20 years.

Except that in multiple places people had stated that Leia had no interest in becoming a Jedi and instead pursued her political and military career instead of letting Luke help develop her abilities. This was offered by JJ, even, as a response to criticisms that Leia had not demonstrated any Force Abilities in TFA beyond her weak and vague emotional-connections at moments to Luke (ESB) and Han (TFA).

2 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

I'm pretty sure Leia got some training from her brother in the last 20 years.

I'm not. She has not demonstrated any propensity for learning it and neither of them has even vaguely hinted at it. Before he disappeared Luke seems to have been busy training Sith and Leia is a general/leader of the resistance/diplomat, which I'm sure involves a fair degree of work.

But maybe. Either way, huge explosion + vacuum + extreme cold + unconsciousness generally = screwed.

40 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Holdo's Hyperspace Ram: A lot of defenders are saying that the Raddus could do that much damage, since with speed > c the force of such a collision would be massive. Uh, no one is doubting the math of that, but it ignores how hyperspace works in Star Wars. In Star Wars, you "jump into" and "jump out of" hyperspace. HYPER-SPACE is a separate from NORMAL-SPACE, like a different location or plane or phase, which is why it looks all wavy blue and other-dimensional.. That's the whole reason it's called Hyperspace... and it draws from old classic notions of how one might, in effect, travel faster than light. You could actually go faster than the speed of light (e.g. Star Trek's "warp speed" achieved through a warp bubble) or you could enter and exit actual space at different points, traveling in an alternative medium, giving the appearance of faster-than-light-speed. This risk in Hyperspace travel comes from either being on a path that would go too close to a significant gravity well, since this would pull you out of Hyperspace by interfering with your hyperdrive OR jumping out in something else (like a supernova explosion).

Think about when Han comes out of lightspeed at Alderaan, the very moment they exit they start getting hit by the debris from Alderaan...yet whilst in Hyperspace they didn't hit any of the debris. If they had just been "going super fast" a little bit of that debris on the edge of Alderaan's debris field would have obliterated the Falcon. But they went from "not existing on the normal plane of space" to "existing within Alderaan's debris field" at which point they started getting hit. Otherwise any debris or any other SHIP would pose a catastrophic risk to you if your hyperspace route overlapped with it. Hyperspace travel would be the most dangerous and deadly thing in the universe, because even the best Nav Comptuers and Astromechs couldn't plan for all the locations of every bit of debris and every other ship out there. Also, weaponized hyperspace would be so easy ... just hyperspace a GR75 with a droid pilot into the Emperor's ship. So if you hyperspaced through another ship you'd just "teleport" right through it... so weaponized hyperspace was not an easy solution to space battles, and hence why we never see it used in any of the Star Wars space battles (even though we see conventional, non-hyper-space ramming in many of the films). Even in Rogue One we see Rebel ships hyperspacing away right in the same region the Devastator is hyperspacing in from, yet whilst in Hyperspace these ships don't collide, it's only the ships not yet in hyperspace that hit the Devastator after it has exited hyperspace. In Han's "ain't like dustin' crops, Kid!" spiel he even says you don't want to "bounce to close to a supernova" with "bouncing" being synonymous with "jumping (out of)" hyperspace. Also, the ways in which hyperspace could be entered/exited/maintained had some sort of affect with gravity wells, where the hyperspace field could not be maintained in the presence of a sufficient gravity well. Which, (prior to TFA) made existing in Hyperspace right near a planet impossible, as your field would collapse and you'd be ripped out of Hyperspace (which is the same premise Interdictors work on), which is why you don't want a hyperspace course that would go through a star, because you'd be ripped out of Hyperspace in proximity of that star. This is also a reason why ships in Star Wars didn't (used to be able to) send or receive messages in hyperspace or fight in hyperspace. Whereas in Star Trek, where "warp speed" is just equivalent to going really really fast we see ships able to communicate and engage in combat with one another. So Holdo's weaponized hyperspace just craps all over the rules of the universe, like so much of TFA and TLJ did. And now instead of having a psuedo-science though consistent explanation as to why ships didnt just hyperspace into enemy ships/planets, now we have to ask "why the heck didn't anyone do this before at times that would have made as much or more sense to do so?"

This doesn't bother me as much as it can be explained as ships having to accelerate into hyperspace. If you watch ships jump to hyperspace, they don't vanish from where they were when they activated the hyperdrive, they accelerate into the distance before disappearing. So it's possible that hitting something while accelerating is where you could potentially ram into them as happened in TLJ.

Just now, VanderLegion said:

This doesn't bother me as much as it can be explained as ships having to accelerate into hyperspace. If you watch ships jump to hyperspace, they don't vanish from where they were when they activated the hyperdrive, they accelerate into the distance before disappearing. So it's possible that hitting something while accelerating is where you could potentially ram into them as happened in TLJ.


I guess that could be one explanation. But I don't really see ships "accelerating" to hyperspace, especially since we can see ships that appear to be sitting still jump into hyperspace. I guess I'm thinking of scenes like in RotJ where the Rebel fleet jumps, it looks like they just sort of "morph" or "pop" into hyperspace and disappear, there doesn't seem to be any great distance traveled by the ships as they being jumping. Just like how when ships exit or leave Hyperspace they like "pop" suddently into existance without any long deceleration traveled (like the Rebel fleet that appears at Scarif). Indeed, all ships we see exit hyperspace just sort of appear out of nowhere without those distances of deceleration, which you would expect if they had to accelerate into hyperspace.

On 15/12/2017 at 10:36 AM, SpikeSpiegel said:

Anyway. When the Resistance soldier dabs his fingers on Crait’s surface and says, “It’s salt.”

Pretty much sums up all the reactions I’ve bothered to read in this thread.

I absolutely loved the movie. Great way to make up for the smoldering garbage fire of a film that Rogue One was.

You do realise Gareth Edwards, director of Rogue One, as a cameo was behind that solider and shrugs after he says that line :lol:

5 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


I guess that could be one explanation. But I don't really see ships "accelerating" to hyperspace, especially since we can see ships that appear to be sitting still jump into hyperspace. I guess I'm thinking of scenes like in RotJ where the Rebel fleet jumps, it looks like they just sort of "morph" or "pop" into hyperspace and disappear, there doesn't seem to be any great distance traveled by the ships as they being jumping. Just like how when ships exit or leave Hyperspace they like "pop" suddently into existance without any long deceleration traveled (like the Rebel fleet that appears at Scarif). Indeed, all ships we see exit hyperspace just sort of appear out of nowhere without those distances of deceleration, which you would expect if they had to accelerate into hyperspace.

They do seem to pop into existence when they come out of hyperspace, but when they enter hyperspace they don't (in the couple shots I went and found) pop out of existence immeidately. I loaded up rogue one and found the scene where they leave yavin in the u-wing and the scene at the end when the rebel ships are all jumping away from scarif and they all accelerate off (or elongate, or something) into the distance before disappearing.

Edit: You can see the same thing in RotJ when the rebel fleet jumps to Endor, so it's not just a new movie thing. (And rewatching those scenes, they also appear to deaccellerate back into realspace in RotJ, not just pop into existence in one spot).

Edited by VanderLegion
3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

They do seem to pop into existence when they come out of hyperspace, but when they enter hyperspace they don't (in the couple shots I went and found) pop out of existence immeidately. I loaded up rogue one and found the scene where they leave yavin in the u-wing and the scene at the end when the rebel ships are all jumping away from scarif and they all accelerate off (or elongate, or something) into the distance before disappearing.

Yea, I always sort of figured that elongation was like some sort of 'phasing' into hyperspace, or a visual artifact thereof. Could be that the ships aren't actually physically occupying that elongated space.

If ships in hyperspace were just going really fast along straight lines and could crash into other ships... my goodness, think of how risky hyperspace travel would be. Let alone an entire fleet jumping, like the Rebel fleet does at Endor. If just one warship behind the fighters jumped a millisecond early it'd wipe out all the ships in front of it...

1 minute ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Yea, I always sort of figured that elongation was like some sort of 'phasing' into hyperspace, or a visual artifact thereof. Could be that the ships aren't actually physically occupying that elongated space.

If ships in hyperspace were just going really fast along straight lines and could crash into other ships... my goodness, think of how risky hyperspace travel would be. Let alone an entire fleet jumping, like the Rebel fleet does at Endor. If just one warship behind the fighters jumped a millisecond early it'd wipe out all the ships in front of it...

Yah, i definitely would have thought the same before TLJ, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

11 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Snoke=Darth Krayt

Rey=Cade Skywalker

Kylo=Darth Talon

which was what I was half expecting. For those of you who didn't read Legacy (and I don't really blame you) the way this plotline would've gone is that Rey gets captured, converted to the Dark Side, starts a romance with Kylo

IMHO if this movie had gone in that direction and ended in a really dark place. But perhaps with success of the resistance militarily outwitting FO (as a balance) that would have been 10,000* more interesting, than what we got.

18 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


I guess that could be one explanation. But I don't really see ships "accelerating" to hyperspace, especially since we can see ships that appear to be sitting still jump into hyperspace. I guess I'm thinking of scenes like in RotJ where the Rebel fleet jumps, it looks like they just sort of "morph" or "pop" into hyperspace and disappear, there doesn't seem to be any great distance traveled by the ships as they being jumping. Just like how when ships exit or leave Hyperspace they like "pop" suddently into existance without any long deceleration traveled (like the Rebel fleet that appears at Scarif). Indeed, all ships we see exit hyperspace just sort of appear out of nowhere without those distances of deceleration, which you would expect if they had to accelerate into hyperspace.

In the EU the acceleration was nicely described as "pseudo movement".

So yeah, no real acceleration.

58 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I'm fine with Rey's parents being nobodies, but then coupling that with her complete lack of training in the Force, how is she such a competent Force User? I assumed we'd at least find out Luke had trained her a bit too, then wiped her memory of it to protect her, and that she'd uncover that latent training with her "THE FORCE" recollection at the end of TFA. Nope, she is just a complete savant that went from no Force Powers in her first 20 years of life to having mastered several force abilities in the span of about a week or two.

Why was there so much forced humor that wasn't funny?

Part of the issue with Snoke and Rey is that they were part of JJ's mystery box approach, that being the whole have some mystery there to keep your audience guessing and interested, but the thing is if they aren't really answered then you are left with a rather lackluster/blueballed feeling about the whole thing. A "Why did I waste my time thinking about this" sort of thing. That said, they could always go with her parents not being special but her, herself being special, I mean Shmi Skywalker wasn't special herself, she just happened to give birth to Anakin, granted some Plagius mess behind it likely but still. That would explain her ability in the force as a reincarnation, could act as a big reveal, and more importantly EXPLAINS WHY THE HECK ANAKIN NEVER CAME BACK TO TRY AND TALK KYLO DOWN WHEN THE GUY WAS EFFECTIVELY WORSHIPING HIM!!!!!

Humor was probably because it is a modern/2010 movie and they feel every movie must try and have as much humor as in any Marvel movie.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

Porg(s)- Furry Penguins, The only one of them I liked was the one that Chewie roasted. Not the other stupid ones looking at Chewie to guilt him into not eating them. Seriously if your best defense is "I'm so cute don't eat me" sorry tasty, but Wookies like Humans are Apex predators, and if you are not running as you see me roasting your friend you are the next meal.

Hehe, true dat.

The only good thing about this movie: it made me like TFA more.

True, and I still think it's very likely we'll find out more about Rey's lineage in Episode 9, seeing as the only confirmation we have comes from Kylo who was trying to pray upon her insecurities at a moment of weakness and vulnerability. I wouldn't call him a reliable authority on the matter...