18 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

And this is my main question, where the **** is Jess Pava?

Or "Snap" Wexley? They are supposed to be around, aren't they??

6 minutes ago, Andreu said:

Or "Snap" Wexley? They are supposed to be around, aren't they??

Off on a recon flight, hopefully. Also, was that Ello?

My exhausted ramblings here:

40 minutes ago, Celestial Lizards said:

but everyone here has given a lot of reason to hate it.

This actually prompted be to throw out my previous stance and jump into the discussion. Maybe some counterweight is necessary so others don't get persuaded into disliking a movie they initially liked.

16 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Starkiller base fired a few shots and the entire New Republic navy is gone? There’s like not even a stray frigate or two? No naval bases that weren’t in the Josmian system? Talk about eggs in one basket.

They repeatedly say that there are allies in the outer rim. Chances are that some previous New Republic forces are among them. But to me the following explanation is already enough: think of Germany after WW2. They were not very fond of their military. Neither is the New Republic, who downsized their forces massively and really did put too much emphasis on diplomacy that's not backed up by armed forces.

18 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Snoke. I mean, they made him this scary larger than life figure I TFA and he was just an angry white guy in TLJ, no menace, no backstory, no trace of the wisdom or drive that carved the First Order out of the remains of the empire.

No counterpoint here. He is shown to be the most powerful dark side user, and we get nothing to explain it.

19 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

None of the questions from TFA were answered. Seriously, who are the first Jedi that will awaken? Who are the knights of Ren?

I was not aware that the "first Jedi that will awaken" was a question. Knights of Ren are implied to have been the students that followed Kylo after he burnt down the temple.

19 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

The initial battle.... sucked. Pretty animations I guess... but Poe’s suicide run was ridiculous, the bombers were a massive anticlimax, Kylos contribution was literally everything in the trailer.

In defense of the suicide run: it's completely established that Fighters > Capital ships > Corvettes > Fighters. Each step is good against themselves and against one below. E.g. corvettes are good against corvettes and fighters. Fighters are good against fighters and capital ships. Etc. So the mistake was not to deploy a squad as soon as they noticed the lone fighter approaching. But then again he was actively deceiving them with a ridiculous ruse, so I'm also ok with that explanation.

22 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

They never explained how the Resitance was being tracked. There were a lot of random zoom ins around the bridge as if there was going to be a traitor aboard. And there was no elaboration on what the plan was after the scanner was offline for a short window, I mean, if they can track through hyperspace surely a few minutes head start isn’t going to help?

Hux mentions they "have them tied to the end of a string". Tearing that string off means it has to be reattached or it doesn't work. They can not track any ship anywhere, can they? Also the command did not know that at first, which opens the possibility of a maul. Maybe that's why the viceadmiral did not declare her plan?

24 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

If jumping to hyperspace causes so much damage, why aren’t there hyperspace Missiles?

Because it takes extremely long with extremely valuable components to build ships large enough with hyperdrives strong enough to have such an effect. It is like using an aircraft carrier to ram an enemy ship. Sure it works, but it would be incredibly stupid to make that your doctrine. In a specific battle however it might be necessary.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

1) space Leia was stupid, ****, and actually pretty tasteless

Completely agree.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

2) Admiral Hoopla's refusal to share an entirely simple to explain plan was ridiculous

Unless she was afraid of a traitor. Deception by higher ups not being shared with everyone is pretty common. E.g. General Mattis went pretty off-script in the thrust to Bagdad in 2003, and the common soldier had no clue what the **** they were doing. There are many examples like this. The whole Casino subplot partially serves to illustrate how clever she was, and how stupid Poe, Finn and Rose are in not trusting her.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

3) hyperspace smash-mouth superweapon they never thought of up to now was bollocks

Would be incredibly wasteful and situational. You don't bring AdvProton Torps to every fight because usually it does not pay off.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

4) getting blue-balled about Reys parents

Daisy Ridley said it was answered in TFA but was heavily misunderstood by the fanbase. I've been saying it for two years now that her parents were nobody. It's literally how she was introduced in the first trailer: "I'm no one". They have never said anything else, and all those believing Luke could be the father grossly misunderstood the dialog with Maz.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

5) getting blue-balled about Snoke's backstory

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

6) getting blue-balled by Phasma's return

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

7) Maz Kanata

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

9) supreme leader pointless exposition and now oh I'm dead.

Completely agree. Wtf, why did they do that?!

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

8) the casino, the younglings, the chase... it all felt very Prequel

Mostly agreed. But it did serve three points: one, to turn Poe into a leader. Two, to develop Finn a little bit, showing him that fighting is necessary, but more importantly why. And third that the Rebellion is a grassroots movement.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

10) pretty much anything BB8 did

Completely agreed. That's my other main gripe, after the spacewalk. Wtf! He took out so many people.

48 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

None of the questions from TFA were answered. Seriously, who are the first Jedi that will awaken? Who are the knights of Ren?

The initial battle.... sucked. Pretty animations I guess... but Poe’s suicide run was ridiculous, the bombers were a massive anticlimax, Kylos contribution was literally everything in the trailer.

They never explained how the Resitance was being tracked. There were a lot of random zoom ins around the bridge as if there was going to be a traitor aboard. And there was no elaboration on what the plan was after the scanner was offline for a short window, I mean, if they can track through hyperspace surely a few minutes head start isn’t going to help?

If jumping to hyperspace causes so much damage, why aren’t there hyperspace Missiles?

And this is my main question, where the **** is Jess Pava?

Luke said Kylo left the burning academy with some other students. I guess those are the Knights of Ren.

The one thing I loved in the new movie is that the mains characters (and villains) are not in control of the story. Things go wrong.

They explained how the Resistance was tracked. The whole plan of Finn and Rose was based on that explanation.

The weaponized hyperspace... yeah... that was the film's weak spot. But if you think about it: it is believable, because the ship gets a lot of speed before jumping. I guess the Vice Admiral is badass to pull that out right.

I didn't see Jess Pava. Maybe she died in the initial battle? Maybe when the hangar exploded? (a lot of pilots did)

Ok, so overall I liked the movie very much, although maybe a little less than TFA.

I have to agree with some of the nitpicks already discussed here, the most egregious being:

a) The rise of the First Order - TFA didn't set up how it came to power and I really hoped that Starkiller + Kylo's destroyer is basically most of their forces. Nope, they managed to control most of the galaxy without any opposition from New Republic in the opening crawl. I mean, how long did that take? Some of my friends pointed out TLJ seems to start mere days after TFA, as the First Order cracks down on the Resistance Ileenium (?) base. FO overrun the galaxy so quickly? Its even worse than them having Starkiller out of the blue in TFA, I mean Hosnian gets taken out and suddenly the New Republic has no fleet, but the FO lose Starkiller and still have tons of ships, Drednaughts and Snoke's personal abomination?

b) No backstory for Snoke. Who the **** is this powerful Dark Side user, able to toss people around like rag dolls? Nothing? Not even one-two lines in Kylo's flashbacks? Come on, scrap the Casino subplot and give me SOMETHING about him.

C) Which leads nicely to the casino subplot. So redundant and forced. I usually don't mind the coincidences in Star Wars movies moving the plot along, but come on - they miss the hacker they went to find and ACCIDENTALLY bum into another, EVEN BETTER hacker? Just... how? And what's with the anti-military complex or whatever message?

d) A few smaller things others already mentioned - the hyperspace cruiser-missile -> why did it have to use hyperspace? Like, make the vice-admiral put shields on overdrive and ram Snoke's ship or something. Ugh. Keeping the plan hidden from Poe - at least make an offhand remark about possible leaks as the reason to do that, anything.

e) Luke's death felt a little off, but had a nice touch with him seeing Tatooine's suns again.

To end on a more positive note, I really liked:

1) Kylo Ren's whole storyline, killing Snoke, the flashbacks, his connection to Rey - basically what I hoped for after TFA, fleshed him out nicely. I like what they did with the character.

2) Basically the whole main plotline of Kylo-Rey-Luke was well executed. Snoke's remark that the stronger Kylo gets, the stronger his opponent gets seems a nice explanation for Rey's powers - I like to think the Force is leveling her up, like in an RPG that automatically makes the enemies level-appropriate to the player

3) Crait looked great, as did the space battles (seriously, Chewie is once again an MVP, he should be the first PS10 in the game )

I'm wondering if Ep IX takes place a few years after this, the ending seemed to hint at it. Overall I'm pleased with the major points and dissapointed at minor things mostly. I wonder how it holds up to multiple viewings.

@GreenDragoonThe German analogy is pretty flawed as the Allies maintained large garrisons in West Germany post war, and they weren’t allowed to have a proper army anyway.

@Odanan my point was that they never say HOW they are tracking the ship. They’d have to have smuggled a beacon of some kind aboard, surely? How else do you attach the string?

The actress who played Jess wasn’t in TLJ, but was asked to be available for all three. Hopefully both Snap and Jess will be back.

5 minutes ago, Rojek said:

Keeping the plan hidden from Poe - at least make an offhand remark about possible leaks as the reason to do that, anything.

The Vice-Admiral not telling her plan to Poe is the most believable thing in the movie. I think that people complaining about that don't understand how the military works...

19 hours ago, Rojek said:

Ok, so overall I liked the movie very much, although maybe a little less than TFA.

I have to agree with some of the nitpicks already discussed here, the most egregious being:

a) The rise of the First Order - TFA didn't set up how it came to power and I really hoped that Starkiller + Kylo's destroyer is basically most of their forces. Nope, they managed to control most of the galaxy without any opposition from New Republic in the opening crawl. I mean, how long did that take? Some of my friends pointed out TLJ seems to start mere days after TFA, as the First Order cracks down on the Resistance Ileenium (?) base. FO overrun the galaxy so quickly? Its even worse than them having Starkiller out of the blue in TFA, I mean Hosnian gets taken out and suddenly the New Republic has no fleet, but the FO lose Starkiller and still have tons of ships, Drednaughts and Snoke's personal abomination?

b) No backstory for Snoke. Who the **** is this powerful Dark Side user, able to toss people around like rag dolls? Nothing? Not even one-two lines in Kylo's flashbacks? Come on, scrap the Casino subplot and give me SOMETHING about him.

C) Which leads nicely to the casino subplot. So redundant and forced. I usually don't mind the coincidences in Star Wars movies moving the plot along, but come on - they miss the hacker they went to find and ACCIDENTALLY bum into another, EVEN BETTER hacker? Just... how? And what's with the anti-military complex or whatever message?

d) A few smaller things others already mentioned - the hyperspace cruiser-missile -> why did it have to use hyperspace? Like, make the vice-admiral put shields on overdrive and ram Snoke's ship or something. Ugh. Keeping the plan hidden from Poe - at least make an offhand remark about possible leaks as the reason to do that, anything.

e) Luke's death felt a little off, but had a nice touch with him seeing Tatooine's suns again.

To end on a more positive note, I really liked:

1) Kylo Ren's whole storyline, killing Snoke, the flashbacks, his connection to Rey - basically what I hoped for after TFA, fleshed him out nicely. I like what they did with the character.

2) Basically the whole main plotline of Kylo-Rey-Luke was well executed. Snoke's remark that the stronger Kylo gets, the stronger his opponent gets seems a nice explanation for Rey's powers - I like to think the Force is leveling her up, like in an RPG that automatically makes the enemies level-appropriate to the player

3) Crait looked great, as did the space battles (seriously, Chewie is once again an MVP, he should be the first PS10 in the game )

I'm wondering if Ep IX takes place a few years after this, the ending seemed to hint at it. Overall I'm pleased with the major points and dissapointed at minor things mostly. I wonder how it holds up to multiple viewings.

How about The Knights of Ren, Kylo popped out of bed, formed a group on the way to the temple and burned it down? Oh wait, we just forget about those. Snoke officially took Jar Jars place as worst character for me, left field character, everything with him was straight up ripped from the Emperor, not used to any satisfying story point at all and just disposed off because Disney clearly had no plan for him. Ep 8 makes it seem like they did not have a plan for most they set up in 7.

8 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

The German analogy is pretty flawed as the Allies maintained large garrisons in West Germany post war, and they weren’t allowed to have a proper army anyway.

It's about how the germans approached their own armed forces. They were traumatized for a long time (arguably still are). It do not think it's incredible if (edit: heirs to) a much worse, systems-spanning empire behaved more extreme by demilitarizing even more.

2 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

@GreenDragoonThe German analogy is pretty flawed as the Allies maintained large garrisons in West Germany post war, and they weren’t allowed to have a proper army anyway.

@Odanan my point was that they never say HOW they are tracking the ship. They’d have to have smuggled a beacon of some kind aboard, surely? How else do you attach the string?

The actress who played Jess wasn’t in TLJ, but was asked to be available for all three. Hopefully both Snap and Jess will be back.

So, Japan? Not all countries are heavily militarized (in the real world), specially if they don't have enemies.

They are using new technology to track where a jumping ship will go. There is no beacon. This is done by the Imperial flag ship itself. I thought the movie was clear about it.

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

It's about how the germans approached their own armed forces. They were traumatized for a long time (arguably still are). It do not think it's incredible if a much worse, systems-spanning empire behaved more extreme by demilitarizing even more.

The West Germans had the luxury of not having a proper army BECAUSE they could rely on the allies who were doing the job for them, despite the USSR living next door.

The New Republic had the First Order next door, yet seemingly had no plan to defend themselves. West Germany had defences, the Republic does not.

1 minute ago, Odanan said:

So, Japan? Not all countries are heavily militarized (in the real world), specially if they don't have enemies.

They are using new technology to track where a jumping ship will go. There is no beacon. This is done by the Imperial flag ship itself. I thought the movie was clear about it.

Japan also was occupied by the Americans who took over the role of the army. There are no equivalents of the Allies in the new trilogy.

All that was said on the tracking was they had tied a string. How was this string tied? It implies a connection between two specific points. How could they have this connection unless they had a mole or beacon on the Resistance ship?

Anyway, we obviously disagree on a pretty minor point. You enjoyed that bit, I didn’t and that’s fine let’s get back to flying plastic space ships.

8 minutes ago, Odanan said:

They are using new technology to track where a jumping ship will go. There is no beacon. This is done by the Imperial flag ship itself. I thought the movie was clear about it.

Yes. That was kind of explained.
Basically they have a new tech that can just "tag" a ship and trace it thru hyperspace. They don't need anything or anyone onboard that ship. Destroying the flagship wouldn't achieve anything because any other destroyer could tag the ship.
Apparently only one of them can tag the ship at a time, and they need the ship to be present to tag it. That is why Finn/Rose/Poe plan consisted on disabling the device without them noticing so that the cruiser would jump before any other FO ship could tag it.

I can live with an explanation like that, even when it feels pretty much constructed by the writers to fit exactly their needs (If all star destroyers could tag the cruiser at the same time, there wouldn't be any Finn/Rose/Poe plot at all).
But it's like complaining about something having too much oregano when you are eating a manure pizza.

1 minute ago, Estarriol said:

The New Republic had the First Order next door, yet seemingly had no plan to defend themselves. West Germany had defences, the Republic does not.

But they did not know about the First Order until relatively shortly before the movies, some years. And even then it was heavily disputed what it actually was and how much of a problem - because many Senators were sympathizers or even colluding. Definitely not long enough to rebuild massive armed forces.
The movie made a really bad job at explaining this though, and it is new that books are necessary to provide context, which is new in this extent.

I think it's sad if you dislike the movie for a reason that's not actually flawed by itself, even though the explanation is not coming from the movie.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think it's sad if you dislike the movie for a reason that's not actually flawed by itself, even though the explanation is not coming from the movie.

It’s a pretty massive flaw if it’s that’s simple. Why not stick it in the opening crawl of TFA?

I never said I didn’t enjoy the movie. I just thing the plot has a great many holes.

I very much enjoyed Rey’s development and Luke’s contribution. The story was about them and Ben, and it’s good. It’s let down by the Resistance sideshow and the (IMO) pretty shabby writing out of the Republic. But hey, if you enjoyed that side then cool.

10 hours ago, DodgingArcs said:

Putting so much investment into Rey’s parentage to just throw it away or leave it for next time was a massive downer. Similarly Snoke and the First Order still basically have no backstory, and while the story isn’t about Snoke, it kind of makes him really pointless to never actually know anything about him or why/how he rose to this position of power.

I'm also hoping for a Snoke/First Order backstory. But I recall that Emperor/Empire didn't get a backstory for 20 years...

4 hours ago, Azrapse said:

The theories were better than what we got.

Unfortunately, the screenwriters seem to just be making everything up as they go along, with no overarching plan:(.

1 hour ago, Estarriol said:

And this is my main question, where the **** is Jess Pava?

Fighting alongside Iron Fist.

7 minutes ago, Keoki said:

I'm also hoping for a Snoke/First Order backstory. But I recall that Emperor/Empire didn't get a backstory for 20 years...

I WAS hoping for one, don't think we'll get it now, at least not in the movies proper. The Empire didn't really need a backstory, because the Original Trilogy was just setting up a universe, there was no prior information to contradict.
"There's an evil, galaxy-spanning empire, lead by a powerful Sith, the Emperor" is enough backstory, while "Though the Empire was seemingly destroyed in the OT, a more powerful organisation rose up from nowhere. They have even more power then the Empire. Yes, the same Empire that lost and there was like a huge celebration. No, we're not telling you how and why it has a military edge over the New Republic"

Just now, Rojek said:

I WAS hoping for one, don't think we'll get it now, at least not in the movies proper. The Empire didn't really need a backstory, because the Original Trilogy was just setting up a universe, there was no prior information to contradict.
"There's an evil, galaxy-spanning empire, lead by a powerful Sith, the Emperor" is enough backstory, while "Though the Empire was seemingly destroyed in the OT, a more powerful organisation rose up from nowhere. They have even more power then the Empire. Yes, the same Empire that lost and there was like a huge celebration. No, we're not telling you how and why it has a military edge over the New Republic"

Agreed. While the First Order does get a very flimsy explanation in the EU, it really seems to be a matter of J.J. wanting to basically reset everything back to the glory days of the original trilogy. The First Order is more or less the Empire, while the Resistance is essentially the Alliance.

2 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

Psst! SOTL!

Just letting you know...

Capatalization at the beginning of a sentence still applys in a list.

Not when you're typing on your phone it doesn't.

I really liked the movie very much. It was mystical/mythological, it adressed everything I cared about in Star Wars, it had amazing WOW-moments and it have had set the jedi power level. All characters were amazing in their respective roles and nothing have been omited. Yes, something was not really "INTO YOUR FACE" as some people would expected but here are some points I am very happy about:

Reys parents - yes, they are nobody, she doesn't fit into the story. Perfect stuff! Her vision in the cave could mean that YOUR deeds and opinions are what makes you who you are, not your bloodline, which is the message I agree with.

Snoke - I didn't like him before and I am glad he's dead! I enjoyed the way he died. And I like him gone because... next point!

Supreme Leader Ren - Kylo Ren is ultimate embodyment of Sith Code! Peace is a Lie, there is only passion - he is never at peace, always in emotional turmoil - now, his chains are broken. He murdered his Master in respect of the old Sith tradition to take his place. And now he is the most powerful villain in the series which is the place where he belongs! Was Vader as fearsome after we found out he is just a pawn in Emperors hands?

Luke Skywalker and the jedi power level - yes! In OT it took exactly one jedi to win the war and overthrow the Empire! In prequels this myth is reduced to bunch of guys with laser swords. Now, Grand Master Skywalker shown us full power of the Jedi of myth! And also brought up ideas about Jedi order I fully agree with - the Jedi and the Sith shouldn't consider themselves the "owners" of the Force.

You probably understood that I really like the Sequels.

46 minutes ago, Keoki said:

I'm also hoping for a Snoke/First Order backstory. But I recall that Emperor/Empire didn't get a backstory for 20 years...

The Emperor and the Empire had a backstory from the very first moment. Actually, one year before the first moment!
The original Star Wars movie came in 1977, its novelization the previous year. The very first paragraph in that book tells us this:

That tells us way more than what Disney has told us of the First Order, Snoke, how they reached to power, why nobody stood in their way, etc.
That is the year before Episode IV, not 20 years later.
Lucas changed his mind a bit over the years about who was really in charge, or this prologue tells the story as the public opinion thought it had happened (it ends with From the Journal of the Whills), but that is minor stuff.

The fact is that two years after The Force Awakens, after tens of books, 2 movies and who knows what more, we still have no answers to the most important questions.
Now Snoke is dead and we still have no idea who he is and how he came to power.

Edit: The scan is from this great article: https://www.coffeewithkenobi.com/an-examination-of-the-prologue-of-the-star-wars-novelization-by-guest-blogger-mike-macdonald/

The worst part and an actual problem for me is the time frame.
Just think how few days passed from the beginning in Episode 7 and the end of Episode 8! That's in the span of days, maybe weeks. And yet they all changed so much!

It's also the reason why I did not believe that the movie would pick up where 7 ended.

The Resistance started evacuating D'Qar and Rey traveled to Luke. She had some days time (2? 3?), so obviously the evacuation took some days, too. But after the jump to light speed, the Raddus is on 18 hours, so another day. If we're generous then the movie took a week. But it's right after TFA, so two weeks at max turned over the galaxy. Several systems will not even be aware of the change, maybe doubt the rumors. There is a timeskip at the end of TLJ when the children are playing the legend of Master Skywalker, so hopefully IX will not continue right after.

Overall I think I liked the film; will need to watch it a few more times to completely nail down my opinion, but it was enjoyable and I appreciated that it made efforts to surprise the audience, even if some of those surprises resulted in plot threads being cut frustratingly short. The biggest gripe for me though is how it disregards a lot of Star Wars canon. I'm not talking about the canon of the Jedi or whatever, since that's constantly in flux and it makes sense that a new generation would embrace new ideas of the force. I'm talking about the hard, scientific rules that govern how this universe works. Obviously Star Wars has always been more science-fantasy than science-fiction, but that's not an excuse to just disobey all the internal rules you've set for your universe. By all means have nonsense concepts like the fact that there's sound in space and also an apparently defined 'up' but at least stick to them once you've established them. For example:

1. The massive Star Destroyer's guns fire in an arc. What? There's no gravity, and every other laser blast in Star Wars goes in a straight line.
2. Ships suddenly have limited fuel reserves. I realise this may not have been relevant before, and therefore never mentioned, but it strikes me as odd and lazy. Also, a spaceship flying in a straight line would continue to move at the same speed even if it ran out of fuel. Speaking of which...
3. Why is the Resistance's ship faster? It's been established that, although not very manoeuvrable, Star Destroyers can go very fast in a straight line because their huge size and power allows them to have massive engines. Also, the Resistance's ship is fast enough to get out of effective range of the First Order's guns, but then they can only maintain an equal distance from them and not pull away? What?

Stuff like this might seem like nitpicking, but when it's an essential explanation for one of the central conflicts in your ilm, the fact it requires you to switch off your brain to accept it and also flies in the face of stuff previously established on-screen in other Star Wars films becomes annoying.