21 minutes ago, jmswood said:

It appears to me that your opinion of Poe is based on assumptions made about the incomplete character presented in TFA. Have you read “Before the Awakening” or the Poe Dameron comic? One of the things I love about TLJ is the continuity with Poe’s character development from other media, including TFA. The chronological development of the character shatters assumptions many people make based on TFA alone.

I really don't like comics as a form of entertainment, and I really haven't read any novels set in this era yet.

But Star Wars is a cinematic experience first and foremost. That's why the old EU was blasted in the first place. . .to make room for the movies.

So, you have a different view of Poe. But, I don't think my movie to movie assessment is invalid. Poe is a big screen character first, and other media character second. To wit, if what on screen does not jive with comics, etc., it is those sources that must change, not the movie.

Comics and books are irelevent you can not demand people read every novel in order to understand the charecter in a movie.

3 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Comics and books are irelevent you can not demand people read every novel in order to understand the charecter in a movie.

Agreed. I don’t have the time to read through all the comics, books, and other Star Wars related media being pumped out now that Disney has the controls.

I will base my view of the character s based on cinema and nothing more.

I’ve read the early Poe comics... I don’t really see how the TLJ character change is in keeping with him there. Maybe I missed something though.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

So, you have a different view of Poe. But, I don't think my movie to movie assessment is invalid.

Of course you don’t, but it’s still based on broad stroke assumptions.

Ignoring all other media, there are not many things we know for certain about Poe from TFA. We know he is a great pilot, and he excels at blowing things up. We know he was on a mission to find Luke, or the map to Luke.

It is easy to assume Poe was trusted with that mission because he must be special. To receive such an important mandate from Leia, and also be the Resistance’s squadron leader, surely he must be outstanding in every way.

Then we see in TLJ that he has lethal flaws. There are casualties in the wake of his learning curve. The assumed greatness is reduced to an astronomical disappointment.

I understand the assumptions about Poe, and the feelings of the people who made them.

Completing my thoughts here, I hit submit too quickly.

Is there not room for the Poe character seen in TLJ to exist in the space created by the character seen in TFA? I say there is. It might be sorely disappointing, but Poe did’t do anything in TLJ that contradicts the facts established in TFA.

TLJ Fact: Poe is a pilot.

TFA fact check: Poe is a pilot.

TLJ Fact: Poe is a hot-shot flyboy with a one-dimensional ambition to blow up First Order assets, with little regard for his allies.

TFA fact check: Poe tells his squadron, “Don’t let these thugs scare you.” That’s hot-shot flyboy bravado, but it’s okay because Poe can strafe storm troopers without hitting any main characters and blow up no less than 10 TIEs in a single pass. In the subsequent scenes, Poe resolves to blow up Starkiller Base, and he only manages to do it before his entire squadron is wiped out because Chewie had a bag of explosives and Han said, “Let’s use ‘em.”

TLJ fact: Poe is an insubordinate type-a male with a hero complex.

TFA fact check: We didn’t see anything insubordinate in Poe in TFA, but there really is no opportunity for insubordination to manifest because all of the Resistance objectives in TFA are conveniently suited to Poe’s modus operandi.

Sorry folks, your feelings for Poe might be bruised, but TLJ didn’t ruin the character, your assumptions did.

7 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Completing my thoughts here, I hit submit too quickly.

Is there not room for the Poe character seen in TLJ to exist in the space created by the character seen in TFA? I say there is. It might be sorely disappointing, but Poe did’t do anything in TLJ that contradicts the facts established in TFA.

TLJ Fact: Poe is a pilot.

TFA fact check: Poe is a pilot.

TLJ Fact: Poe is a hot-shot flyboy with a one-dimensional ambition to blow up First Order assets, with little regard for his allies.

TFA fact check: Poe tells his squadron, “Don’t let these thugs scare you.” That’s hot-shot flyboy bravado, but it’s okay because Poe can strafe storm troopers without hitting any main characters and blow up no less than 10 TIEs in a single pass. In the subsequent scenes, Poe resolves to blow up Starkiller Base, and he only manages to do it before his entire squadron is wiped out because Chewie had a bag of explosives and Han said, “Let’s use ‘em.”

TLJ fact: Poe is an insubordinate type-a male with a hero complex.

TFA fact check: We didn’t see anything insubordinate in Poe in TFA, but there really is no opportunity for insubordination to manifest because all of the Resistance objectives in TFA are conveniently suited to Poe’s modus operandi.

Sorry folks, your feelings for Poe might be bruised, but TLJ didn’t ruin the character, your assumptions did.

Someone without a certain level of emotional maturity would not be allowed to operate covertly to track Luke. Someone without a certain level of emotional maturity would no5 be allowed to lead one Squadron, let alone two. Someone who doesn’t base his every move against preserving the resources of a poorly supplied resistance would not be in a position of power. When you have no means to train pilots or a ready source of spare ships you do not use them recklessly or allow them to be so used. The TLJ poe would not be an officer in the Resistance.

TFA poe is resourceful and respectful. He’s patient in his coaching of Finn in the /sf.

TLJ Poe would’ve taken off for Starkiller before the Resistance had time to discuss the problem!

So...who else is thinking of taking the TLJ characters and locations and writing their own, alternative version for themselves.

I've not written any fiction since school but I can't really do any worse than what I saw the other day.

49 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Completing my thoughts here, I hit submit too quickly.

Is there not room for the Poe character seen in TLJ to exist in the space created by the character seen in TFA? I say there is. It might be sorely disappointing, but Poe did’t do anything in TLJ that contradicts the facts established in TFA.

TLJ Fact: Poe is a pilot.

TFA fact check: Poe is a pilot.

TLJ Fact: Poe is a hot-shot flyboy with a one-dimensional ambition to blow up First Order assets, with little regard for his allies.

TFA fact check: Poe tells his squadron, “Don’t let these thugs scare you.” That’s hot-shot flyboy bravado, but it’s okay because Poe can strafe storm troopers without hitting any main characters and blow up no less than 10 TIEs in a single pass. In the subsequent scenes, Poe resolves to blow up Starkiller Base, and he only manages to do it before his entire squadron is wiped out because Chewie had a bag of explosives and Han said, “Let’s use ‘em.”

TLJ fact: Poe is an insubordinate type-a male with a hero complex.

TFA fact check: We didn’t see anything insubordinate in Poe in TFA, but there really is no opportunity for insubordination to manifest because all of the Resistance objectives in TFA are conveniently suited to Poe’s modus operandi.

Sorry folks, your feelings for Poe might be bruised, but TLJ didn’t ruin the character, your assumptions did.

Wrong.

If I assume someone is a nice guy based on meeting him at a party, and then I see him stealing or treating people badly. . .

My assumptions didn't ruin his character. He was not a nice guy to start with.

New Poe is kind of an *******. Sorry if I'm a little bruised about that, I thought he was a better person based on TFA.

47 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Completing my thoughts here, I hit submit too quickly.

Is there not room for the Poe character seen in TLJ to exist in the space created by the character seen in TFA? I say there is. It might be sorely disappointing, but Poe did’t do anything in TLJ that contradicts the facts established in TFA.

TLJ Fact: Poe is a pilot.

TFA fact check: Poe is a pilot.

TLJ Fact: Poe is a hot-shot flyboy with a one-dimensional ambition to blow up First Order assets, with little regard for his allies.

TFA fact check: Poe tells his squadron, “Don’t let these thugs scare you.” That’s hot-shot flyboy bravado, but it’s okay because Poe can strafe storm troopers without hitting any main characters and blow up no less than 10 TIEs in a single pass. In the subsequent scenes, Poe resolves to blow up Starkiller Base, and he only manages to do it before his entire squadron is wiped out because Chewie had a bag of explosives and Han said, “Let’s use ‘em.”

TLJ fact: Poe is an insubordinate type-a male with a hero complex.

TFA fact check: We didn’t see anything insubordinate in Poe in TFA, but there really is no opportunity for insubordination to manifest because all of the Resistance objectives in TFA are conveniently suited to Poe’s modus operandi.

Sorry folks, your feelings for Poe might be bruised, but TLJ didn’t ruin the character, your assumptions did.

You shut your mouth about my pretty boi Poe!!!

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Wrong.

If I assume soce is a nice guy based on meetingbe him at a party, and then I see him stealinglikettreating people badly. . .

My *** umptions didn't ruin his character. He was not a nice guy to start with.

New Poe is kind of an *******. Sorry if I'm a little bruised about that, I thought he was a better person based on TFA.

Your assumptions did ruin your eventual perception of his character and you feel bad about it, because you now look like a fool.

People dont like Poe because they made incorrect assumptions about him. Not becausd there were inconsistancies with his character.

27 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Your assumptions did ruin your eventual perception of his character and you feel bad about it, because you now look like a fool.

People dont like Poe because they made incorrect assumptions about him. Not becausd there were inconsistancies with his character.

Opinions vary.

20 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Your assumptions did ruin your eventual perception of his character and you feel bad about it, because you now look like a fool.

People dont like Poe because they made incorrect assumptions about him. Not becausd there were inconsistancies with his character.

Poe was written to be the way he is for TLJ. He could have been written differently, so I'm not sure how this gets spun into a "it's all on you" thing.

Han Solo was a tough as nails smuggler who only cared for himself.

Until George decided to retcon him into not that kind of guy.

Han Shot First. When you try to say he wouldn't do that, people get pissed.

Poe could have not been crass and irresponsible. Now he is. I like him less for it. If the makers of these movies what you to have empathy for the mains, TLJ did not do much to help. Except for Kylo. . .he's now one character that I do sympathize more with, because he was betrayed for no concrete reason then used.

I still like Poe. In fact, I like him better because he isn’t perfect.

42 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Someone without a certain level of emotional maturity would not be allowed to operate covertly to track Luke. Someone without a certain level of emotional maturity would no5 be allowed to lead one Squadron, let alone two. Someone who doesn’t base his every move against preserving the resources of a poorly supplied resistance would not be in a position of power. When you have no means to train pilots or a ready source of spare ships you do not use them recklessly or allow them to be so used. The TLJ poe would not be an officer in the Resistance.

Still making assumptions based on your ideals.

56 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

TFA poe is resourceful and respectful. He’s patient in his coaching of Finn in the /sf.

Poe is resourceful in both movies.

Poe treated Finn like a human being, and he won our human hearts in the act.

59 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

TLJ Poe would’ve taken off for Starkiller before the Resistance had time to discuss the problem!

Maybe, but that doesn’t make him a different character from the one we saw in TFA. Remeber he stayed in the Jakku village to fight the Stormtroopers? Remember he gave away his postion by trying to snipe Kylo Ren? He was reckless. What was he going to do? Fight Phasma and all her troops? Lor San Tekka took his secret to the grave, and Poe wasted that sacrifice.

2 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Still making assumptions based on your ideals.

No.... I’m drawing from the data presented to show how I perceived the character. You can do the same, and that’s fine, but consider this. If TLJ was slightly different, say, with Tallie taking Poe’s part, same lines, same characterisation, would we be moaning that ‘shes just a female version of Poe’, or would we be saying ‘if only Poe had survived, he’d never make THAT mistake!’ ?

Id bet on the latter, because the characterisation is so different between the films that we would have no trouble at all accepting that they were different characters.

9 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

No.... I’m drawing from the data presented to show how I perceived the character.

Your experience with Poe is ironically similar to the the one Rey has with Luke.

“Many of the truths we cling to...”

I don’t even need to finish this line, because if you really know Star Wars, then you already finished it in your head. It couldn’t be more fitting to this discussion. Your perception of Poe is based on your point of view. Your point of view hinges on assumptions you made about Poe. TLJ shattered those assumptions.

I had a similar experience with Finn for this movie. That’s a different can of worms.

Hope Poe appreciates all this white knighting.

34 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Your experience with Poe is ironically similar to the the one Rey has with Luke.

And the one Mark Hamill has with Luke.

"He's not my Luke."

People have expectations. If you want to **** with them, expect disappointment. And don't hold them responsible for said disappointment.

34 minutes ago, jmswood said:

stuff

Not much of a discussion with you telling us our opinions are wrong, is it?

30 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

Hope Poe appreciates all this white knighting.

The only EPT I'm ever going to assign him anymore is Lone Wolf.

10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

And the one Mark Hamill has with Luke.

"He's not my Luke."

People have expectations. If you want to **** with them, expect disappointment. And don't hold them responsible for said disappointment.

You’re taking his comment out of context. He was saying that Luke is not his. The character in TLJ was different from who he wantednLuke to be. But in the end he accepted that the character in TLJ is not his.

1 minute ago, Estarriol said:

Not much of a discussion with you telling us our opinions are wrong, is it?

You overlooked the part where I empathized with you.

3 hours ago, jmswood said:

I understand the assumptions about Poe, and the feelings of the people who made them.

That’s a mark of honest and fair discussion.

Tactics like this:

51 minutes ago, jmswood said:

stuff

are not much of a discussion.

14 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

You’re taking his comment out of context. He was saying that Luke is not his. The character in TLJ was different from who he wanted Luke to be. But in the end he accepted that the character in TLJ is not his.

Which is exactly the conversation we are having about Poe. He is not the character we wanted him to be.

My point was that even an actor had to make an adjustment to what was in his mind's eye and what appeared on the screen in TLJ, so I am using the exact same context.

I accept Poe as he is now; it's not my story. But I am less attached to him.

If they keep up with fighter jock Poe and he blows up in IX, I might think "well, that's what you get for behaving like that" instead of "we have lost a great pilot."

On 12/22/2017 at 9:53 AM, Babaganoosh said:

Because your dead sister was a more interesting character than you.

It should have been you, Rose. It should have been you.

I had no assumptions about Poe. He's a character lucky to have made it out of the first movie. He was a bit of a **** in this one, but he'd seen his X Wing popped and was probably going stir crazy cooped up on the cruiser ship.