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It used to be that I was irritated that Vader never recognizes the R2 unit he spent the entire Clone Wars with and the 3PO unit he personally built. I had to hand wave it because the OT was made first. But now, the new movies are making the old movies make no sense, for a storyline-one-trick-wonder.

I will have to re-watch the original trilogy, but does Vader get anything more than a glimpse of the droids? I rarely can think of a time when the droids are in the direct line of sight of Vader. (Escaping the Death Star after the Obi Wan duel? On Chewbacca's back in Cloud City?)

1 minute ago, Jadotch said:

I will have to re-watch the original trilogy, but does Vader get anything more than a glimpse of the droids? I rarely can think of a time when the droids are in the direct line of sight of Vader. (Escaping the Death Star after the Obi Wan duel? On Chewbacca's back in Cloud City?)

He only meets C3PO in disassmebled on Cloud City in some legends comic and that's basically it. He never ends up in the same room with them the whole OT. Fans are still mad at GL and the PT that Vader does not recognize R2

There's the argument that protocol droids and astromechs are plentiful enough that a human might not recognize one.

There's the better argument that "God dammit George, don't have Anakin building C3PO. It doesn't make any sense for him to build a protocol droid, let alone the extreme contrivance of plot required to establish that origin."

40 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sure, but there it all points to the powerlevel. Which is what I mentioned, too.

Well it points to both (a) powerlevel and (b) the way in which people learn to use the Force.

In every bit of material pre-NewTrilogy, it took some dedicated focus and training to slowly begin to learn to do simple things with telekinesis, for instance, or mind-tricks. In the New Trilogy, we have stable boys grabbing brooms and Rey doing mind-tricks, force-grabs, force-pushes, and the like all without a moment of training or teaching.

So, I'd consider that a fair amount of retcon. We never see Anakin or Luke use telekinesis at times it would make perfect sense for them to do so, until after they've started some training. Leia never uses telekinesis (pre-TLJ). Even in the non-movie EU this basic principle was preserved, with such characters like Corran and Zuckuss who are Force sensitive but untrained, so they lack the more advanced powers like telekinesis. Without training, being sensitive to the Force just made you have good reflexes / intuition, often manifesting itself as you being a bit lucky, or else gave you a faint emotional sort of connection at a distance. It didn't let you lift rock-slides or pull brooms into your hand or mind-trick prison guards. Yet stable-boy is whipping his broom into his hand without missing a beat, like he's been doing it his whole life, and Rey seems every bit as powerful and competent with the Force in TFA as Luke was at his peak in RotJ (which would have been find if TLJ had revealed she'd have had some previous training that was then mind-wiped from her to protect her or something, but TLJ doubles down that nope, she's just a savant at everything Force-related).

Understanding and using the Force has gone from something that had be nurtured, developed, and arrived at through effort and commitment to something that you can just deploy with the snap of your finger. That is reinvention, at least in my book. Heck, the Force is now easier to use than magic in Harry Potter, because at least in Harry Potter you had to learn the name of the spell...

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

He only meets C3PO in disassmebled on Cloud City in some legends comic and that's basically it. He never ends up in the same room with them the whole OT. Fans are still mad at GL and the PT that Vader does not recognize R2

Yeah, I guess it's a real bummer he never got to watch any of the security cameras on the DS the whole time his droids were running around on it.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah, I guess it's a real bummer he never got to watch any of the security cameras on the DS the whole time his droids were running around on it.

A station with a crew of 500,000 officers and more than a million droids running around.
And than what he should do about it that it's R2? Be angry about it!

Imho it's fine that they don't meet, would be just awkward. I think it is actually cool that R2 was so close with Anakan and took care of his son Luke. R2 knew that he had to take care of him, because his friend ... man TCW really enhances even the OT

1 minute ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well it points to both (a) powerlevel and (b) the way in which people learn to use the Force.

In every bit of material pre-NewTrilogy, it took some dedicated focus and training to slowly begin to learn to do simple things with telekinesis, for instance, or mind-tricks. In the New Trilogy, we have stable boys grabbing brooms and Rey doing mind-tricks, force-grabs, force-pushes, and the like all without a moment of training or teaching.

So, I'd consider that a fair amount of retcon. We never see Anakin or Luke use telekinesis at times it would make perfect sense for them to do so, until after they've started some training.

Everything you just said ... is questionable. ;-)
We have plenty of children in the prequels using force powers, levitating things, sensing the force and minds of others. This is nothing new. It has been established long before by Lucas and Filoni.

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

... man TCW really enhances even the OT

Ahsoka needs a live action movie!

13 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

There's the argument that protocol droids and astromechs are plentiful enough that a human might not recognize one.

There's the better argument that "God dammit George, don't have Anakin building C3PO. It doesn't make any sense for him to build a protocol droid, let alone the extreme contrivance of plot required to establish that origin."

When he said built him, I assumed it was a kit. Kind of like the "Build your own computer" kits they have now-a-days.



Cool kid, you built your own droid.

PS Thinking about it Watto probably was using him for child labor selling kid mad protocol droids on the black market. (Now I am just making stuff up, but it is as good as story as any.)

I think Darth Vader didnt want to recognize the droids, because this reminded him of beeing once Anakin, who he gave up to be.

Greetings

H

21 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I disagree:

No that doesn't float at all.

EVERY pirate and outlaw will be willing to risk it for the right price and to stay out of jail.

EVERY military unit will have a special ops shield buster squad that "accepts the risks involved."

You are retconning how the entire universe works, and the military machine of the Empire becomes a stupidly unnecessary decoration, et. al.

And the first Death Star's "ray shields" let proton torpedoes thru. So a "refresh rate" seems to be a common feature of shields.

That's a hard one to quote.

Ok, Darth Meanie - I respect you, so this is not just arguing for the sake of arguing... but...

The GR75s not jumping from atmo past the star destroyers makes sense when you consider just how many people are onboard that thing, and how bad an idea it is to attempt. Solo's little maneuver was a split second from going splat, and even still should have done damage to the ship. I accept arguments here that JJ glossed over the damage from impact... apparently none? Heroic plot armour and bad writing hardly makes this seem like a smart maneuver.

Pirates making this maneuver from time to time seems legit to me. Pirates slamming into the planet or an asteroid from time to time also seems legit. We've got nothing saying this doesn't occur.

Disagree on every military having a specialized team that may just go splat. There's acceptable risks and then there's idiocy. That's a disagreement though in how far certain politicians and generals will go and arguing this will move neither of us. I will note in Solo, one of the better pilots in the galaxy and experienced in doing all sorts of crazy things, nearly smacked into a planet. What's the average bus driver on one of those transports likely to do?

Indeed. The entire universe is retconned. It's done. We may miss it, but it's gone. Everything works differently.

Shields still haven't been explained satisfactorily. Any time, any where. WEG gave a good try. It's gone now.

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Everything you just said ... is questionable. ;-)
We have plenty of children in the prequels using force powers, levitating things, sensing the force and minds of others. This is nothing new. It has been established long before by Lucas and Filoni.

Uh, except aren't they all YOUNGLINGS being trained at the Jedi Temple?!?!

Which is exactly my point...

Manipulating the Force took training and teaching and effort. My point wasn't about children vs. adults or some age-related thing.

4 hours ago, Cartchan said:

"The more I read through this thread, the more it appears to me that" the people who were the most disappointed are the ones who know and love the EU. Star Wars went in another direction. They are in unknown territories and they miss their landmarks (Mara Jade, adult Luke Skywalker)

As someone who only know the movies and Rebels, I enjoyed this film.

I mostly only know the movies and this movie felt like a 2.5 hour long slap to the face session

10 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

We never see Anakin or Luke use telekinesis at times it would make perfect sense for them to do so, until after they've started some training.

Empire Strikes Back - Luke calling his ligthsaber in the Wampa cave. Luke has had minimal training, more in teaching that the force exists than in how to use it. The books explained this away, but the movies did not.

4 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

Cool kid, you built your own droid.

Without skin!!! AAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

Ugh, I dislike this as much as TLJ, it seems.

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Disagree on every military having a specialized team that may just go splat. There's acceptable risks and then there's idiocy. That's a disagreement though in how far certain politicians and generals will go and arguing this will move neither of us. I will note in Solo, one of the better pilots in the galaxy and experienced in doing all sorts of crazy things, nearly smacked into a planet. What's the average bus driver on one of those transports likely to do?

Solo was very, very proud of his astrogation skills, he made this clear even to Luke in ANH when Luke claimed that he could fly to ship to Alderaan. The Kessel run being another showcase of that. It was still considered crazy AND if a government order this, there is the danger to literally destroy the planet involved. Now the empire might still do it.

Speaking of what the empire might do, do we have a source of the devastation of concord dawn?

3 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Empire Strikes Back - Luke calling his ligthsaber in the Wampa cave. Luke has had minimal training, more in teaching that the force exists than in how to use it. The books explained this away, but the movies did not.

Sure, and I even explicitly give this example. But Luke has to struggle to get that saber, and he fails in his first attempts, and he's had (a) some indeterminate amount of explanation and training from Obi-Wan on Tatooine and the Falcon, and then (b) two years between ANH and ESB where he's been meditating and continuing to practice with the Force (possibly even with tutelage from ghost Obi-Wan, but that's a bit of speculation). I don't see how that's a counterexample to my point where I said they don't use telekinesis until after they've had some training?

Stable-boy just whips that broom into his hands with no effort at all.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

Which is exactly why the movie is establishing after the deconstruction that those actions still mattered, they are the base for the next generations, triumphs and failures alike. Don't forget your past, don't destroy it like Kylo is trying, but don't hold yourself back with it either. Progress indeed does not happen on its own, and thus the characters, including the ones who failed move forward and try again.

The movie is schizophrenic on the matter. Nobody came to help The Resistance, disproving that nihilism... until Luke shows up, at least. But Rey is so uber-duper force-awesome because the Force "always creates a balance," proving that nihilism.

5 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Empire Strikes Back - Luke calling his ligthsaber in the Wampa cave. Luke has had minimal training, more in teaching that the force exists than in how to use it. The books explained this away, but the movies did not.

But he had conversations with a Force Ghost. Who knows what role Obi Wan played in that.

3 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Indeed. The entire universe is retconned. It's done. We may miss it, but it's gone. Everything works differently.

Yep. Maybe that's the sad part. Used to be you could look to Wookieepedia for a (pseudo-)solid answer.

My Star Wars heroes are all dead, the universe is not what it used to be, and the galaxy is in the hands of the next generation.

Perhaps that's what bothers me the most about TLJ; it makes it painfully obvious my SW zeitgeist is gone. . .

5 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Without skin!!! AAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

(Skin Sold Separately.)

1 minute ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Stable-boy just whips that broom into his hands with no effort at all.

Stable boy might have been trained by Luke already. We have no indication how much time has passed since the events, only that either the whole galaxy is speaking of Skywalkers legendary defense against the first order OR Luke himself telling the kid about it.

As I said somewhere else, I fully expected force ghost Luke to appear right at the side of the kid and teach him. We still might get this in another movie.

12 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Well it points to both (a) powerlevel and (b) the way in which people learn to use the Force.

a) her "powerlevel" is explained to be the force balancing out Kylo. Snoke dies, Luke dies. These two remain. Kylo getting stronger makes Rey stronger.

b) Rey is established to have the mindset of an engineer or hacker. Her main ability is to quickly grasp the points where and how a system can be manipulated. All else she does can be traced back to that ability - her flying, her engineering, her force skills.

So complaining that she learns too fast is like saying an olympic level athlete is too fast at learning a new sport. He has everything he needs, physically, and "only" needs to learn the intricacies of the new discipline. Or a good Warhammer 40k player switching to X-Wing.

She gets the powerlevel for free, and already has the necessary mindset/abilities to learn fast on top of that.

That's all in the movie. Also, that's a discussion for TFA, so where have you been the last 2 years?