So we came into a scenario yesterday and I think I need to double check something. Let’s start with the easy scenario:

Scenario 1
Xizor (with initiative) shoots Dalan Oberos, the latter being equipped with R5-P8 and kills him. Now because of the simultaneous attack rule, Dalan remains in play and all of his abilities remain active until he gets an opportunity to attack (see simultaneous attack rule in rules reference). So he is free to use R5-P8 (even inflicting an additional damage on himself) and fire one last time before being considered destroyed and remove from play. That part is easy.

Scenario 2

A lowly Z-95 shoots Dalan Oberos, the latter being equipped with R5-P8 and kills him. The “destroyed” state happens during the deal damage step (step 7). R5-P8 is triggered at step 8 (abilities after attacking / defending). Rules reference “card abilities” page 8 says the following:

“When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as “until the end of the Combat phase.”

Am I therefore right in understanding that since the ship was destroyed in step 7 (because it was not saved by the simultaneous attack rule), then its abilities are deactivated, including R5-P8 and therefore, the droid cannot be activated before the ship is removed from play?

According to the FAQ flow chart destroyed ships are removed in step 10, therefore abilities like R5-P8 and Dengar's return shot are resolved before removing the ship.

You are not correct in scenario 2. Since the card reads... "After defending..." you have met the trigger condition and the since ship is not removed until step 10, the ability is still in play. Its the same with Dengar and his ability.

On 12/13/2017 at 3:11 PM, darthlurker said:

According to the FAQ flow chart destroyed ships are removed in step 10, therefore abilities like R5-P8 and Dengar's return shot are resolved before removing the ship.

That's the part that is confusing:

- Destroyed ships are removed at step 10, on this we agree. But,

- Rules reference, page 9, Damage: "If a ship has a number of Damage cards equal to its hull value, it is destroyed." Damage is dealt at step 7, not step 10. So it would acquire the "destroyed" status at step 7, but be removed at step 10.

I've been noting this for a few months now.

from context (Dengar and Quickdraw, mostly) we can infer that "after defending against an attack" triggers go off even if you are destroyed in step 7, and thus R5-P8 and all other cards that trigger after the attack remain active until the "after performing an attack" cascade of steps 8 and 9 are completed.

17 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

That's the part that is confusing:

- Destroyed ships are removed at step 10, on this we agree. But,

- Rules reference, page 9, Damage: "If a ship has a number of Damage cards equal to its hull value, it is destroyed." Damage is dealt at step 7, not step 10. So it would acquire the "destroyed" status at step 7, but be removed at step 10.

So the question becomes "does a ship's destroyed status prevent it from using its abilities?", and my answer to that is no and I'll explain with an example. Let's assume that you're shooting at Biggs with a bunch of PS5 ships, you have the initiative, and you destroy Biggs with the shot of the first PS5. As per the FAQ, the rest of your PS5 ships still have to shoot at Biggs (assuming your opponent's ships are all in range 1 of Biggs and are legal targets) despite the fact that he's already destroyed, and the ship and its abilities only disappear after Biggs shoots and his ship is removed. This is precedent for ships retaining all of their abilities until they are removed from the table, despite having been destroyed.

14 minutes ago, darthlurker said:

So the question becomes "does a ship's destroyed status prevent it from using its abilities?", and my answer to that is no and I'll explain with an example. Let's assume that you're shooting at Biggs with a bunch of PS5 ships, you have the initiative, and you destroy Biggs with the shot of the first PS5. As per the FAQ, the rest of your PS5 ships still have to shoot at Biggs (assuming your opponent's ships are all in range 1 of Biggs and are legal targets) despite the fact that he's already destroyed, and the ship and its abilities only disappear after Biggs shoots and his ship is removed. This is precedent for ships retaining all of their abilities until they are removed from the table, despite having been destroyed.

But that is a specific case for the simultaneous attack rule, which I outlined in scenario 1. That one is very clear and easy to follow in the entry at page 17 of the rules reference: "While the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps a ship in the play area, that ship’s abilities and Damage cards remain active." The case of scenario 2 does not include simultaneous attack rule (which itself is an exception to how it normally works).

I think I'll just submit a question to FFG. The thing is that we had to make a ruling for our epic league concerning a lot of interactions with the harpooned! conditions and it too can be problematic depending on where you consider the ship is destroyed. Asking FFG might not get me an answer, but it might prompt them to clarify things in the next FAQ.

4 hours ago, dotswarlock said:

But that is a specific case for the simultaneous attack rule, which I outlined in scenario 1. That one is very clear and easy to follow in the entry at page 17 of the rules reference: "While the Simultaneous Attack Rule keeps a ship in the play area, that ship’s abilities and Damage cards remain active." The case of scenario 2 does not include simultaneous attack rule (which itself is an exception to how it normally works).

I think I'll just submit a question to FFG. The thing is that we had to make a ruling for our epic league concerning a lot of interactions with the harpooned! conditions and it too can be problematic depending on where you consider the ship is destroyed. Asking FFG might not get me an answer, but it might prompt them to clarify things in the next FAQ.

While it's simultaneous attack and I see where you're coming from, to me it's still setting precedent for destroyed ships having abilities while still on the table. As for contacting FFG, I submitted a question twice over the last three months and have yet to receive a reply or any mention of it in the latest FAQ, so good luck with your inquiry.

Given the precedent set by Dengar ("...this ability can occur even if Dengar was destroyed by the attack.") I would say that R5-P8 triggers. That being said the line of text uses the work "can" and not "will" (passive and active language often is a challenge to writers), so you can argue that Dengar's ability only triggers after death when simultaneous fire occurs thus providing a condition in which the "can" part of the phrase is valid option.

So play it how Dengar is played until FFG provides another FAQ.

Per the FAQ in the FAQ...

Q: If an ability triggers when a ship is destroyed, if the ship is destroyed during an attack, when does this ability occur?

A: The ability occurs after the damage cards are dealt. Typically, this is during the “Deal Damage” step of combat. Although the ship is destroyed, effects from the ship’s pilot ability, Upgrade cards, Damage cards, etc. are still active until it is removed at the end of the attack.

So a ships abilities stay in play until you physically remove it from the table.

Suffice it to say it's not as clear cut as it might appear.

2 hours ago, shaunmerritt said:

Per the FAQ in the FAQ...

Q: If an ability triggers when a ship is destroyed, if the ship is destroyed during an attack, when does this ability occur?

A: The ability occurs after the damage cards are dealt. Typically, this is during the “Deal Damage” step of combat. Although the ship is destroyed, effects from the ship’s pilot ability, Upgrade cards, Damage cards, etc. are still active until it is removed at the end of the attack.

So a ships abilities stay in play until you physically remove it from the table.

Aha! Nice find! Thank you!

I consider myself well versed FAQ wise, but I missed that one and would have kept missing it because the tidbit of information is actually not related to the "Q" of the question (I would have glossed over it again and again).

Thanks again!

3 hours ago, shaunmerritt said:

Per the FAQ in the FAQ...

Q: If an ability triggers when a ship is destroyed, if the ship is destroyed during an attack, when does this ability occur?

A: The ability occurs after the damage cards are dealt. Typically, this is during the “Deal Damage” step of combat. Although the ship is destroyed, effects from the ship’s pilot ability, Upgrade cards, Damage cards, etc. are still active until it is removed at the end of the attack.

So a ships abilities stay in play until you physically remove it from the table.

ref FAQ 4.4.0 p.24

Section 5: FAQ § Timing Chart for Performing an Attack