If Luke uses force surge at the end of his activation and hasn't used heroic yet, can he use heroic after force surge resolves? Force Surge says "at the end of your activation" which means it has to be after both of your actions are resolved. Heroic says "during your activation", but since Heroic doesn't use an action I wasn't quite sure on the answer.
Force Surge and Luke
My argument for:
"A figure ends its activation after performing both of its actions and spending its remaining movement points." The way that reads to me is that if you double move with Luke and spend all 8 movement points you are in the "end of your activation" stage. If Luke can use heroic after spending 8 movement points, he can use it "at the end of his activation". If he can use heroic at the end of his activation, he can use it after force surge.
I think that by the time you are triggering "End of activation"-abilities, the only thing you can still do are other end-of-activation abilities.
The same goes for start of round-abilities.
2 minutes ago, Cremate said:I think that by the time you are triggering "End of activation"-abilities, the only thing you can still do are other end-of-activation abilities.
That was my first thought too, but I can't find that written explicitly in the rules.
You can't eat the cake and have it too. Once you have ended your activation, only the abilities triggering off it are performed.
Once they have been performed, it is not during your activation anymore.
E.g. Fenn cannot end his activation to recover strain from Lone Wolf, suffer strain for mp and spend the mp. Either you have ended your activation or not.
Edited by a1bertThat example makes sense, just wanted to make sure
Edited by brettpkelly12 hours ago, a1bert said:You can't eat the cake and have it too. Once you have ended your activation, only the abilities triggering off it are performed.
Once they have been performed, it is not during your activation anymore.
E.g. Fenn cannot end his activation to recover strain from Lone Wolf, suffer strain for mp and spend the mp. Either you have ended your activation or not.
Another problem with Heroic
It doesn't have to be that easy. The main problem for me here is this:
"Does end of activation timing window follow the same rules as end of the round timing window?"
RRG of course doesn't answer this question, but in my opinion interpretation, that end of the activaction timing window is the part of activation (just as end of the round timing window is part of round) you can conclude, that you actually can use Heroic attack during end of activation phase after force surge, is possible to defend. Take into consideration, that effects, that can't be used during end of the round are "until the end of the round" It can be helpful to answer a question "is it possible to use datatheft to use Ferocity from enemies discard pile?" (in my opinion yes), beacuse both effects use very simmiliar wording.
I don't think you can infer from a completely different part of the rules to another to settle this question.
Also "until the end of the this round" and "during this round" are two distinctly different effects.
It wouldn't say, that they are completly different, because they have very similiar structure and serve similiar purposes. Also if the rules won't answer some problem explicitly, then you have to find you answer somewhere else because there HAS to be some rule (explicit - mostly in writen rules or implied - through player interpratations and ultimatley rules queries sent to developers) regarding each situation. In my opinion, the first thing to do in case of lack of direct rule is to look for similiar cases and try to consider does adapting certain rules to questionable situation would lead to acceptable (and consistent) results. Also I am not arguing, that presented interpratation is right. I am just pointing, that it is worth considering.
During your activation is markedly different. Activation ends when the activating figure decides it ends.
There are no timing windows for end of round or start of round. They are both single triggers. Every ability with their respective triggers activate at the same time.
Just in the same way "at the end of an activation" is a single trigger.
Edited by a1bert
1 hour ago, a1bert said:During your activation is markedly different. Activation ends when the activating figure decides it ends.
There are no timing windows for end of round or start of round. They are both single triggers. Every ability with their respective triggers activate at the same time.
Just in the same way "at the end of an activation" is a single trigger.
Actually, they are (at least, that's what i deducted from FAQ)
Q: When an ability’s effect lasts “until” a certain timing window (e.g. “Until the end of the round...”), does that effect persist through that timing window?
A: No. These abilities’ effects end immediately as the specified timing window begins, before any other effects in that timing window are triggered. So, in the given example, the effect that persists “until the end of the round” would expire before any other “end of round” effects are triggered.
It's not a single trigger because, the effects are not resolved at the same time, but in certain order (mission rules, initiative, no initiavive) also when multiple effects are triggered by one player he chooses order of resolution.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter do we call it timing window or trigger. The important thing is do "end of activation" belong to activation. just like "end of the round" belongs to round
edit. Another thing worth noting - there are effects launched at the end of your activation (like force surge) and launched after you resolve an activation (change of plans), which may imply, that end of activation effects actually hapen during activation.
Edited
by Szycha
People using a term "timing window" doesn't make it a game term (even when in the FAQ).
1 hour ago, Szycha said:It's not a single trigger because, the effects are not resolved at the same time, but in certain order (mission rules, initiative, no initiavive) also when multiple effects are triggered by one player he chooses order of resolution.
It is a single trigger. The timing conflict resolution rule says in which order to resolve abilities with the same trigger.
Abilities triggering at the end of activation are indeed considered part of the activation (needed for Onar's Keep Up and Rush combo).
Edited by a1bert
As I said. it doesnt really matter how we call it
However if one of those people is a game developer I think, that we can accept it
34 minutes ago, a1bert said:Abilities triggering at the end of activation are indeed considered part of the activation (needed for Onar's Keep Up and Rush combo).
In that case. why do you state, that Heroic, which can be activated during activation, cannot by activated during end of activation if you consider this trigger part of activation?
Edited by Szycha
Whether or not "at the end of your activation" is a window or a trigger, "During your activation" is certainly a timing window and not a trigger.
If the "during your activation" window extends through the "at the end of your activation" trigger, I don't see why you couldn't use "during your activation" abilities "at the end of your activation".
The way the RRG is worded now: "A figure ends its activation after performing both of its actions and spending its remaining movement points." If you can't use Heroic at the end of your activation, you shouldn't be able to use it after you spend your 8th movement point from a double move.
If you can spend it after you spend your last movement point, then it is an "end of activation" ability, so you should be able to use the timing conflicts rules to use heroic and force surge in any order you want.
Here's a corollary question:
Davith plays Force Surge to get into the enemy deployment zone. Can he then play "Behind enemy lines"?
For reference Behind enemy lines: Use during your activation while in your opponent's deployment zone to look at the top 3 cards of his Command deck and return those cards in any order.
You are asking that "Can I use during your activation abilities if I have ended my activation"?
The end of your activation is definitely a singular event, thus a trigger. You perform all abilities that trigger from it, then it's the opponent's activation.
Abilities "at the end" happen before "after resolving an activation" abilities, but both are triggered when you end your activation.
Even when an ability with "at the end of activation" is considered within the activation, you cannot choose to activate an ability with a different trigger, or you forego the trigger and thus are not during your activation anymore. You also cannot voluntarily activate an ability while resolving another ability.
Edited by a1bertI'm asking "can you use during your activation abilities at the end of your activation".
At the end of your activation is defined as when both of your actions have resolved. Going off your interpretation, Luke can't use heroic after moving 8 spaces, because that's when end of activation triggers, unless I'm interpreting the definition of end of your activation wrong. Maybe you're suggesting there's a window between when your second action resolves and the end of your activation trigger starts?
During your activation isn't a clear trigger
Edited by brettpkelly22 minutes ago, brettpkelly said:At the end of your activation is defined as when both of your actions have resolved.
It's actually not. You activation ends when you choose to end it.
Not "proof", but related discussions (Clipper is the tech editor of IA):
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1715114/timing-end-heros-activation-mission-rule
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1701545/force-surge-and-davith-cut-run
True, during your activation isn't a trigger per se.
Although you could consider during you activation to be a single trigger if you consider actions to be during your activation abilities as well - your activation starts, you get one during your activation trigger, and can perform all during your activation abilities in the order of your choice, including upto two action abilities, upto two suffer strain abilities, and a spend mp ability for each gained movement point, ending your activation, and other during your activation abilities from class, supply, and item cards. )
Edited by a1bert12 minutes ago, a1bert said:It's actually not. You activation ends when you choose to end it.
"A figure ends its activation after performing both of its actions and spending its remaining movement points." Am I interpreting this wrong?
Edited by brettpkelly2 minutes ago, brettpkelly said:"A figure ends its activation after performing both of its actions and spending its remaining movement points." Am I interpreting this wrong?
Yes. You're not the first one though.
Just now, a1bert said:Yes. You're not the first one though.
Not surprising the timing phases aren't exactly well defined