Like I said, a Deathwatch team wouldn't knowingly follow the orders of a Radical. Of course few are better than Inquisitors at keeping secrets. The main point I was trying to make is that Deathwatch Marines aren't just going to salute and smile while an Inquisitor secures some unholy Necron relic or the like. It would be a lot messier than that. As far as C'tan phase swords and similar, lesser Xenos items, I tend to feel such things simply aren't significant enough to really raise most Marines' ire. A Marine wouldn't use such a weapon and once he noticed it, would be disgusted, but he likely wouldn't execute the user seeing as such equipment has long been appropriated for the Imperium's use. That said, an Inquisitor seen using a C'tan weapon or the like would have some serious image problems in a Deathwatch Marine's eyes, and would likely be regarded with a fair bit of suspicion from then on.
Deathwatch: not just aliens anymore
Also, the Deathwatch are tasked with aiding Ordo Xenos Inquisitors in research missions. I seem to recall a bit in the Necron Codex about a Deathwatch Kill Team managing to tag a few Necrons with specialized bolt-shells with tracking systems mounted in them so that the Ordo Xenos could figure out where the frak the Necrons went when they phased out.
They are not utterly opposed to retrieving samples of Xenos tech or material for researching how best to defend against them or kill them, so they might not be utterly opposed to working with an Inquisitor who, say, had a Shuriken Catapult he pried from the cold, dead hands of a Dire Avenger Exarch.
Atheosis said:
It should be noted that one of the roles of the Deathwatch is the recovery of Xenos artefacts for study and (sometimes) potential use by the Imperium; C'Tan Phase Swords are reportedly an example of such an item.
Atheosis said:
Like I said, a Deathwatch team wouldn't knowingly follow the orders of a Radical.
Well, as everything, it depends on the type of Chapter the Deathwatch Marine originats and type of Radical. Relictor wouldn´t have that great problems with Xanthite (I think it was even covered in Chapter Approved in one White Dwarf) even if he knows his true nature, one of the most notorious Xanthites, Kobras Aquierre (sp?) even counted among his forces strike cruiser with strikeforce/company of Charnel Guard Chapter. Oblationist could have work alongside member of Exorcists Chapter. What are the true alligiances of mysterious Red Hunters Chapter in their willing service og Inquisition? Would a Flesh Tearer have problems with Istvaanist practices? And employing some chapters of Cursed Founding is at least in my opinion Radical act itself.
Two really good books to read on this subject if you like the paperback novels are Warrior Brood and Warrior Coven. It has been a while since I have read the two, but in Warrior Brood an Inquisitor has a Deathwatch team go planet side and retrieves a xenos artifact from a research facility. In Warrior Coven the Deathwatch team has to side with the Eldar to combat are larger threat. Some of the material is a little off, but it does try and stay true to the mythos.
aeonsin said:
Two really good books to read on this subject if you like the paperback novels are Warrior Brood and Warrior Coven. It has been a while since I have read the two, but in Warrior Brood an Inquisitor has a Deathwatch team go planet side and retrieves a xenos artifact from a research facility. In Warrior Coven the Deathwatch team has to side with the Eldar to combat are larger threat. Some of the material is a little off, but it does try and stay true to the mythos.
NO! Do not mention those two novels as any form of 'reference material', ever. EVER. C.S. Goto is a hackjob author who makes Stephanie Meyer look like Shakespeare in comparison.
Kanluwen said:
NO! Do not mention those two novels as any form of 'reference material', ever. EVER. C.S. Goto is a hackjob author who makes Stephanie Meyer look like Shakespeare in comparison.
Only refering to the missions the Deathwatch was on, not the caliber or lack their of, of the writer. I agree with you completely in regards to his writing, it's like making love to a roll of sand paper. It just gives you examples of what the Deathwatch can be sent to do.
aeonsin said:
Kanluwen said:
NO! Do not mention those two novels as any form of 'reference material', ever. EVER. C.S. Goto is a hackjob author who makes Stephanie Meyer look like Shakespeare in comparison.
Only refering to the missions the Deathwatch was on, not the caliber or lack their of, of the writer. I agree with you completely in regards to his writing, it's like making love to a roll of sand paper. It just gives you examples of what the Deathwatch can be sent to do.
No, it's really not. Goto has a hard-on for the Eldar, and was obsessed with them in a manner that, again, makes Stephanie Meyer look normal. That's why I pretend those books never existed.
That and Falcon/Land Raider/Razorback/Landrazor surfing.
@aeonsin
Well, I can´t speak badly for G.S. Goto myself (I was and I realy am horrified by all the stuff is written on the net about him), as I only read one his suprisingly great story (The Tower), but I would stick with other great 40k novel portrayals of Deathwatch, namely Xenos from Eisenhorn Omnibus by Dan Abnett, Innocence Proves Nothing by Sandy Mitchel and Headhunted short story published in Heroes of the Space Marines by Steve Parker.
Mr. Parker, by the way, will have another DW story ( Exhumed ) published in Legends of the Space Marines and there is rumour that he could be writing whole Deathwatch novel (serie...), coincidently around the time of DW RPG starting its career.
Hmmm... a Scourge the Heretic style tie-in with the Deathwatch RPG would be good if they get a decent author to do it, and give us more Deathwatch-centered stuff than Goto's slightly-less-sucky-than-Dan-Brown literary discharge and a few short stories.
I've got a pretty high tolerance for the things that make books mediocre, and have enjoyed some books that have been labelled as pretty bad. I love the novelisation of Fire Warrior (it shows very well how to make a decent book out of a horribly bad game, even if there are bits where you can feel Simon Spurrier straining against the source material), I managed to make it all the way through Ben Counter's Battle for the Abyss (IMO, his worst book and certainly the worst Horus Heresy book) and James Swallow's first two Blood Angel books without utterly despising either author afterward.
But CS Goto managed, with Warrior Brood, to dethrone The Old Man and the Sea as the worst book I'd ever read, not just for its own horribleness, but for confirming that it wasn't just the constraints of novelization that made Dawn of War suck. Not even Saint Augustine's interminable whinging about how unworthy he was could do that. Evidence suggests that Dan Brown is worse than Mr. Goto, but as I've no desire to read his stuff, CS Goto shall remain as the worst author I've read.
Kanluwen said:
No, it's really not. Goto has a hard-on for the Eldar, and was obsessed with them (...)
Hey, there's nothing wrong with that!
The Laughing God said:
Kanluwen said:
No, it's really not. Goto has a hard-on for the Eldar, and was obsessed with them (...)
Hey, there's nothing wrong with that!
Except for the fact that his supposed love for the Eldar pretty much ended up with them charging mindlessly into battle, worshipping Slaanesh, and warring amongst themselves.
If that's what he does for the cultures he likes, then I'd hate to see what he does to the cultures he dislikes...
Kanluwen said:
The Hobo Hunter said:
While they are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos and thus dedicated to anti-xenos campaigns, it would be well within their duty to take on other enemies of mankind.
Grey Knights don't let waves of heretics get past them while they stop to call up the Sisters of Battle to do it for them, and neither would Deathwatch.
Well of course the Grey Knights wouldn't let waves of heretics get past them...most of the time when the Grey Knights are called in, those heretics are calling in Daemons or actively fighting alongside Daemons.
Which turns it from an Ordos Hereticus matter to Ordos Malleus. That's kind of the issue with the overlap between Hereticus/Malleus. While in their early stages, a Cult or a band of heretics that are attempting to make contact with their masters in the Warp, it's a pretty clear-cut Hereticus matter. I mean, by the time we have Daemons running around chopping people to bits, there's no real reason to argue "Well, these heretics are our targets and you Grey Knights take out the Daemons. Because that's what we specialize in" if one Ordos or another isn't present.
With the Ordos Xenos it's a bit of a different ballgame. There's no real overlap, outside of the odd Xenos cult or Rogue Trader making contact with Xenos and opening trade routes.
The Cold Trade, Slaugth/Amaranthine syndicate, enslavers, genestealers and beast cults of solomon beg to differ, along with the logicians invoved with the creation of the hollow men of Sinophia Magna, beast house, Simulacra, employers of kroot mercs, rogue traders who stray into forbidden star systems and others to numerous to mention.
Overlap between the work of the Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos is every bit as common as between the Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Malleus, perhapes even more so. It is easy to imagain even overlap between the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus.
zombieneighbours said:
Kanluwen said:
The Hobo Hunter said:
While they are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos and thus dedicated to anti-xenos campaigns, it would be well within their duty to take on other enemies of mankind.
Grey Knights don't let waves of heretics get past them while they stop to call up the Sisters of Battle to do it for them, and neither would Deathwatch.
Well of course the Grey Knights wouldn't let waves of heretics get past them...most of the time when the Grey Knights are called in, those heretics are calling in Daemons or actively fighting alongside Daemons.
Which turns it from an Ordos Hereticus matter to Ordos Malleus. That's kind of the issue with the overlap between Hereticus/Malleus. While in their early stages, a Cult or a band of heretics that are attempting to make contact with their masters in the Warp, it's a pretty clear-cut Hereticus matter. I mean, by the time we have Daemons running around chopping people to bits, there's no real reason to argue "Well, these heretics are our targets and you Grey Knights take out the Daemons. Because that's what we specialize in" if one Ordos or another isn't present.
With the Ordos Xenos it's a bit of a different ballgame. There's no real overlap, outside of the odd Xenos cult or Rogue Trader making contact with Xenos and opening trade routes.
The Cold Trade, Slaugth/Amaranthine syndicate, enslavers, genestealers and beast cults of solomon beg to differ, along with the logicians invoved with the creation of the hollow men of Sinophia Magna, beast house, Simulacra, employers of kroot mercs, rogue traders who stray into forbidden star systems and others to numerous to mention.
Overlap between the work of the Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos is every bit as common as between the Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Malleus, perhapes even more so. It is easy to imagain even overlap between the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus.
Y'vath perhaps? They can be the only warp worshipin' xenos out there....
Their are almost certainly hundereds of damned Xeno's races, dabbling with the warp. To the mind set of the Monodominant faction, the eldar might well be one of them
A short remark re the OT: Eisenhorn was Ordo Xenos (Ravenor too), yet spent most his time battling daemons. Not everything Abnett writes is canon, no, but in this case he's still onto something. An inquisitor's Ordo alignment won't necessarily restrict him to only combat a single threat against the Imperium/humanity. As I see it, it determines his loyalties (seeing as he most likely served under a master belonging to the same order) and general inclination/focus. And as has been stated elsewhere here, xeno influence and tech may be found in many places.
Sammail said:
A short remark re the OT: Eisenhorn was Ordo Xenos (Ravenor too), yet spent most his time battling daemons. Not everything Abnett writes is canon, no, but in this case he's still onto something. An inquisitor's Ordo alignment won't necessarily restrict him to only combat a single threat against the Imperium/humanity. As I see it, it determines his loyalties (seeing as he most likely served under a master belonging to the same order) and general inclination/focus. And as has been stated elsewhere here, xeno influence and tech may be found in many places.
I've struggled with this Ordo alignment too in my Dark Heresy campaign. I've never liked the idea that you had to chose for a certain Ordo and from then on your missions and adventures would predominantly be related to this Ordo. I like my acolytes - and my Space Marines - to face heretics, aliens and daemons in random order
The Laughing God said:
Sammail said:
A short remark re the OT: Eisenhorn was Ordo Xenos (Ravenor too), yet spent most his time battling daemons. Not everything Abnett writes is canon, no, but in this case he's still onto something. An inquisitor's Ordo alignment won't necessarily restrict him to only combat a single threat against the Imperium/humanity. As I see it, it determines his loyalties (seeing as he most likely served under a master belonging to the same order) and general inclination/focus. And as has been stated elsewhere here, xeno influence and tech may be found in many places.
I've struggled with this Ordo alignment too in my Dark Heresy campaign. I've never liked the idea that you had to chose for a certain Ordo and from then on your missions and adventures would predominantly be related to this Ordo. I like my acolytes - and my Space Marines - to face heretics, aliens and daemons in random order
In Dark Heresy there really isn't any reason to do so, and many Inquisitors are, in fact, generalists. But Deathwatch? That's a bit different. You really have to get creative to pull it off. That or you can simply ignore the lore if you like.
The death watch, as currently detailed, are focused Xenos hunters, that is their job plain and simple. If the inquisition knows that the problem is demonic or heretical, they arn't going to call in the death watch.
That doesn't however mean that the death watch never end up fighting those challanges. The Ordo Xenos can easily attack what they think is a xeno-tech smuggling ring, using a death watch kill team team, only to discover that the kill team is fighting a logician cell and that the advanced tech was in fact forbidden archiatech. enslavour infestation? Oh **** is really a demonic incursion.
Add to that the occasions when the kill team is the only resource that can deploy in time to save an entire planet. Under such situations, who is to say that an ordo Xeno's inquisitor with a more pragmatic (aka radical ) out look wouldn't use the kill team to stand against a chaos cult, even if it isn't part of their remit.
All that said, i wouldn't be at all surprise if death watch didn't contain infomation on play as non-death watch marines, who are allied with the various ordo, and possibly even gray knights(though i consider this considerably less likely.)
[minirant] As a small aside, am I the only one who really hates setting material being refered to as lore. I first noticed setting details being called 'lore' as part of the 4ed DnDs onwards march to devorce 4e from any form of connection between setting and rules, where the term seems to have been used to push an even greater wedge between narrative and game. [/minirant]
zombieneighbours said:
[minirant] As a small aside, am I the only one who really hates setting material being refered to as lore. I first noticed setting details being called 'lore' as part of the 4ed DnDs onwards march to devorce 4e from any form of connection between setting and rules, where the term seems to have been used to push an even greater wedge between narrative and game. [/minirant]
What term would you prefer? Fluff? Background?
It's just a word.
Setting is my personal choice.
Background is okay, but a definate second choice.
Words have power, when you calling a setting, 'fluff' your equating it to being insubstantial and unimportant.
While lore doesn't have the same linguistic baggage, it does have the connection, atleast in my mind with the hatchet job Wizards did on the realms.
zombieneighbours said:
Setting is my personal choice.
Background is okay, but a definate second choice.
Words have power, when you calling a setting, 'fluff' your equating it to being insubstantial and unimportant.
While lore doesn't have the same linguistic baggage, it does have the connection, atleast in my mind with the hatchet job Wizards did on the realms.
The key being in your mind. I personally have no such associations seeing as I was over D&D long before 4e came out (though what I've seen from browsing the books is pretty disgusting).
The definition of "lore" fits with its usage in discussion of current RPGs. It is the background material, not just "This town is here", but stories and tales of what lead to the setting's current state. It's also, as a word, more appropriate to what it actually describes than "Setting", easier to get out than "Background Material", and far more respectful of its intention and importance than "Fluff".
I've no problem with using the term lore with regards to RPG background material. "Fluff" originated in wargaming and cardgames, where people tend not to view the background material with the same importance as in an RPG. In wargames and cardgames, to a fairly large extent, only the rules matter. In RPGs, the rules are pretty much secondary to the lore of the setting.
Regarding D&D4E and the Forgotten Realms, I can forgive them the hundred-year leap in setting time, the massive catastrophic changes to the setting, etc... I cannot forgive them for leaving bloody Elminster, the Muchkiny Author Insertion Character of all Munchkiny Author Insertion Characters, alive.
Lyinar said:
Regarding D&D4E and the Forgotten Realms, I can forgive them the hundred-year leap in setting time, the massive catastrophic changes to the setting, etc... I cannot forgive them for leaving bloody Elminster, the Muchkiny Author Insertion Character of all Munchkiny Author Insertion Characters, alive.
Agreed. They finally had the 'fluffy'
best chance ... and still they refused to pull the trigger! And it's not just Elminster ... it's several others of the Chosen ... the ultimate player-significance-dampeners! So I have given up on FR completely. In any future DM'ing I do, it will be in Eberron. I don't know, maybe that was their intent from the start.
But back to the topic at hand, I do believe their will be some (if not a great deal of) potential for cross-purpose missions in DW. JMHO.
I've never seen the downside to 'fluff' personally - I see it as the contrast to 'cruch' - which is the mechanical side of things. Both are important, and which is more so depends on context.
'Lore' I find to be slightly infantile. It sets my teeth on edge in the same way that medieval dialogue spoken with an American accent does. (It doesn't work, as clearly everyone in the middle ages talked like a member of the Royal Shakespeare Company). Completely arbitrary and ridiculous I know but it's a personal prejudice of mine.
Er. Sometihng on topic perhaps. There are enough accounts of xenos chaos worshippers (such as the Saruthi in the aforementioned Eisenhorn books) or cults around xenos (e.g. genestealer cults) to allow for plenty of overlap between ordos.