2 minutes ago, X Wing Nut said:

My dream is that tournament Results from everywhere will have list with 2-8 ships in them. not the constant 4+

Then welcome to your dream world, because this is already happening. Look at the Regionals results: they're a bell curve. The curve of winning lists obviously centers around 4-5 activations, which has been a consistent and obvious target for the designers because two activations vs two activations is boring , and seven vs seven is slow .

7 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

Why ever have 8 ships with a pass rule? In order to get shots you have to put 5-6 of them in range of your opponent with 2 ships with Gunnery teams. You then lose 2-3 of those small fragile ships, and if you are second player then you lose another 1-2 as those big ships activate first next round... Your suggestion ends with 2-3 ship lists being the only ones played at top levels of the game.

the right build and the right objective I dont see it as a problem just takes more skill

37 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

but don't think for a moment this is what the majority of players want.

Current players maybe but what about new players. trying to get people into this game is not easy in the state where I live (Vic. Aust.) there is only one other store that is getting people to play Armada and its only because they fly 200point lists on a 3x3 Admirals are half the cost and you don't need to take them no one takes more the 3 ships (not a rule) and they have people show up and play and they can get good numbers. I haven't had a chance to get to one of there game days to ask them but from what I have heard everyone likes the smaller fleets

You and others say a pass rule would kill MSU lists. Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing. what if new people want to only fly 2-3 ship lists with a lot of squadron but cant because you need to play 5+ ship lists so you don't get punished every game.

Do you find it hard to get new Players into the game once you tell them that to have a chance you cant take those 3 ISD in a list that they really want to fly as you will get out activated and die? not saying it cant be done but it wont be fun. Its hard enough getting them to make the purchase for these ships knowing they wont get a chance to fly them in a tournament.

the other big advantage to smaller lists is games do go faster which is another plus when trying to get new players into the game. in the end that is what I'm all about trying to get new players in and in its current format its not an easy sell

The problem is, you advocate for choice - and then state it’s perfectly okay to remove choice...

Besides, I grew up in that state.

i know what it takes to get people into a game and to play it.

why do you think the gaming club I created, based out in the boonies with no store support, became the Inaugural Victorian Interclub Champions at 40k?

Sonerhing that must alwsys he kept in mind is a target audience. Getting people into a game is good, but getting a smaller number of the right people , in my belief, is better.

All you can ever do is sell the strengths. You can’t make them up and push for change to make it true ?

i mean, I wish you could. Would make my life easier for sure?

3 minutes ago, X Wing Nut said:

Do you find it hard to get new Players into the game once you tell them that to have a chance you cant take those 3 ISD in a list that they really want to fly as you will get out activated and die? not saying it cant be done but it wont be fun. Its hard enough getting them to make the purchase for these ships knowing they wont get a chance to fly them in a tournament.

No, as no one I know has willingly spent $150 as a new player on 3 ISDs. You can fly a 3 ISD list, there's nothing stopping you. Pryce makes it so you CAN fight those MSU lists.

Also I can tell you right now that a well flown list with 2 ISDs is perfectly viable. It won GenCon, look at the numerous amounts of them in Atlanta, the lists are THERE. You have to learn to fly them, you can't just create a rule that makes things easier for players flying 3 ISDs against most lists because flying 3 of them competently SHOULD NOT be EASY.

Sure, 3 ISDs in a movie are scary, but if we're going by that logic how do I get to crash an A-wing into your Star Destroyer and kill it? How do I get to push a Hammerhead into your ISD and force it to ram another one (relatedly, what crit IS that? The one that borks your yaw value at the last adjustable joint, or WHAT?)

7 minutes ago, X Wing Nut said:

Current players maybe but what about new players. trying to get people into this game is not easy in the state where I live (Vic. Aust.) there is only one other store that is getting people to play Armada and its only because they fly 200point lists on a 3x3 Admirals are half the cost and you don't need to take them no one takes more the 3 ships (not a rule) and they have people show up and play and they can get good numbers. I haven't had a chance to get to one of there game days to ask them but from what I have heard everyone likes the smaller fleets

You and others say a pass rule would kill MSU lists. Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing. what if new people want to only fly 2-3 ship lists with a lot of squadron but cant because you need to play 5+ ship lists so you don't get punished every game.

Do you find it hard to get new Players into the game once you tell them that to have a chance you cant take those 3 ISD in a list that they really want to fly as you will get out activated and die? not saying it cant be done but it wont be fun. Its hard enough getting them to make the purchase for these ships knowing they wont get a chance to fly them in a tournament.

the other big advantage to smaller lists is games do go faster which is another plus when trying to get new players into the game. in the end that is what I'm all about trying to get new players in and in its current format its not an easy sell

I think Pryce fixes this particular issue.

Pryce will do a very good job of mitigating the threat of deep-bid last/first shenanigans right exactly where it most needs to be mitigated: at the lower and middle-skill tiers where you get people using these tactics as a crutch against other players who don't know how to counter being out-activated. Many players beyond a certain level of experience and skill know how to tactically mitigate last/first shenanigans*; as a result very few of their opponents at that level rely on it heavily, because if they do, they stop being at that level . It's nice to have when you get it, but it's just one more tactical tool in your toolbox, not the only one .

But , new players obviously aren't going to know how to deal with this kind of thing. So I do think last/first could use a nerf as a built-in noob-stomping mechanic, and I think Pryce will do that nicely.

At higher levels, I expect to more commonly see her used for the kind of squadron double-alpha-strike that @Snipafist is talking about in the next thread over.

*Ask @CaribbeanNinja how to do it if you don't believe me: he took me to the woodshed the last time I tried pulling a last/first run against him.

Dude, that was a face down card, not s crit... it was light bringer, not Garel’s Honor.

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Dude, that was a face down card, not s crit... it was light bringer, not Garel’s Honor.

They were playing precision strike. You can tell by the Y-wings flipping Comms Noise three times to disable the defense tokens.

4 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Also I can tell you right now that a well flown list with 2 ISDs is perfectly viable. It won took second at GenCon, look at the numerous amounts of them in Atlanta, the lists are THERE. You have to learn to fly them, you can't just create a rule that makes things easier for players flying 3 ISDs against most lists because flying 3 of them competently SHOULD NOT be EASY.

Fixed that for you, but the basic sentiment of "dual ISD fleets can be successful" I don't disagree with, and I know @GiledPallaeon could certainly tell you more.

Triple ISD fleets shouldn't be good because the only real way to afford that is to spam 3 of them with barely anything else in the fleet. If it was that simple to do well at Armada, you've got a fairly shallow game.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

They were playing precision strike. You can tell by the Y-wings flipping Comms Noise three times to disable the defense tokens.

As a fellow human being, I sympathize deeply for you with what happened to you. As a squadrons player, what goat did you sacrifice to what dark god to achieve THAT result?

14 minutes ago, geek19 said:

As a fellow human being, I sympathize deeply for you with what happened to you. As a squadrons player, what goat did you sacrifice to what dark god to achieve THAT result?

Clearly it was their Improbable Aiming Skills [obligatory TVTropes link warning].

Or possibly just the Lowered Monster Difficulty [another one].

Do not give us pass rule! Make them deal with it!

Once again, I've played with a pass rule...multiple times, and every time I had significantly less fun than I do in armada games with the current state of the rules. Even my opponent, who was the one benefiting from the pass rule, found the games to be less interesting. One of those games was actually triple ISD, vs a Rebel bomber fleet. I had the works. Max squads, B-wings, Adar, Yavaris...and guess what, it didn't matter. I killed an ISD, was tabled the turn after. You cannot make that fundamental a rules change to a game and keep any sort of balance. My opponent literally said, why would I ever bring anything other than this?

As to your response that maybe the game should shift to just 2-3 ships....well you basically torpedo your whole argument at that point. You can't say you are arguing for a rule to avoid "everyone having 4-5 activations" (which has already been proven to be a faulty statement), and then say it's okay for everyone to have 2-3. At that point you are no longer arguing for a change that even has a basis in improving the game for it's players, but rather for a change that is based on your personal tastes and opinions. You don't think armada has too high a barrier of entry? The barrier has always been high, that's just the game armada is. Those reasons are why many who love the game started playing it in the first place. Start changing that, and you hurt more than help the game. Drastic changes outside the existing structure (new ships/upgrades, occasional errata to maintain balance, etc.) is a step that begins to tread in very dangerous waters. Because at that point, you really are creating a new game.

Back to a previous point; to teach newer players you have it in your power to introduce them into the game any way you choose. Let them play with 200 point fleets, keep the ship numbers down, but in the end they do need to understand how the game currently functions if they wish to play with others outside of your group.

39 minutes ago, geek19 said:

As a fellow human being, I sympathize deeply for you with what happened to you. As a squadrons player, what goat did you sacrifice to what dark god to achieve THAT result?

That result is even more unlikely than you’d think at first glance because Comm Noise doesn’t really do anything to defense tokens... That would be Injured Crew.

5 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

That result is even more unlikely than you’d think at first glance because Comm Noise doesn’t really do anything to defense tokens... That would be Injured Crew.

Till you slow a ship to speed 0...

26 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Till you slow a ship to speed 0...

Whoops. I completely missed that. Well, I’m off to sacrifice a goat and try Dodonna now...

58 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

Once again, I've played with a pass rule...multiple times, and every time I had significantly less fun than I do in armada games with the current state of the rules. Even my opponent, who was the one benefiting from the pass rule, found the games to be less interesting. One of those games was actually triple ISD, vs a Rebel bomber fleet. I had the works. Max squads, B-wings, Adar, Yavaris...and guess what, it didn't matter. I killed an ISD, was tabled the turn after. You cannot make that fundamental a rules change to a game and keep any sort of balance. My opponent literally said, why would I ever bring anything other than this?

As to your response that maybe the game should shift to just 2-3 ships....well you basically torpedo your whole argument at that point. You can't say you are arguing for a rule to avoid "everyone having 4-5 activations" (which has already been proven to be a faulty statement), and then say it's okay for everyone to have 2-3. At that point you are no longer arguing for a change that even has a basis in improving the game for it's players, but rather for a change that is based on your personal tastes and opinions. You don't think armada has too high a barrier of entry? The barrier has always been high, that's just the game armada is. Those reasons are why many who love the game started playing it in the first place. Start changing that, and you hurt more than help the game. Drastic changes outside the existing structure (new ships/upgrades, occasional errata to maintain balance, etc.) is a step that begins to tread in very dangerous waters. Because at that point, you really are creating a new game.

Back to a previous point; to teach newer players you have it in your power to introduce them into the game any way you choose. Let them play with 200 point fleets, keep the ship numbers down, but in the end they do need to understand how the game currently functions if they wish to play with others outside of your group.

Without a pass rule though, would that ISD list have stood a chance against your rebel bombers?

I think ISDs are in a good place right now given everything they've had focused on them recently, but I still feel activation advantage is still pretty overwhelming as a whole. You have FAR more experience with Armada than I do, so I'll ask you, whats your opinion on activation advantage?

How are we still on the "nerf flotillas/ pass rule" debate? (For my ten pence worth - 3 ISDs is quality of activation, multi flotilla is not).

Think JJ just put this one to bed nicely, can we have a new strawman for the nerf-club to thrash please?

5 hours ago, X Wing Nut said:

You are giving us Pryce once a game you can pass until the end of the ship phase.

Just give us the Pass Rule already!

2 hours ago, X Wing Nut said:

Current players maybe but what about new players. trying to get people into this game is not easy in the state where I live (Vic. Aust.) there is only one other store that is getting people to play Armada and its only because they fly 200point lists on a 3x3 Admirals are half the cost and you don't need to take them no one takes more the 3 ships (not a rule) and they have people show up and play and they can get good numbers. I haven't had a chance to get to one of there game days to ask them but from what I have heard everyone likes the smaller fleets

You and others say a pass rule would kill MSU lists. Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing. what if new people want to only fly 2-3 ship lists with a lot of squadron but cant because you need to play 5+ ship lists so you don't get punished every game.

Do you find it hard to get new Players into the game once you tell them that to have a chance you cant take those 3 ISD in a list that they really want to fly as you will get out activated and die? not saying it cant be done but it wont be fun. Its hard enough getting them to make the purchase for these ships knowing they wont get a chance to fly them in a tournament.

the other big advantage to smaller lists is games do go faster which is another plus when trying to get new players into the game. in the end that is what I'm all about trying to get new players in and in its current format its not an easy sell

I don't want people in if that means I am gonna be out.

**** you noobies!

55 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Whoops. I completely missed that. Well, I’m off to sacrifice a goat and try Dodonna now...

Remove your dirty hands from my cousin!

The Biggest Problem with a Pass rule is it would just highly change the game and render small ships and flotillas almost useless if you could just park 2/3 ISD's in front of 2/3 MC80 Libs and just slowly slug it out by saying pass till some one gives up and strikes, that would make the game extremely boring and would cut out all the fun and strategy to the game. It would just end in a pointless who shoots first wins dual.

4 hours ago, X Wing Nut said:

Current players maybe but what about new players. trying to get people into this game is not easy in the state where I live (Vic. Aust.) there is only one other store that is getting people to play Armada and its only because they fly 200point lists on a 3x3 Admirals are half the cost and you don't need to take them no one takes more the 3 ships (not a rule) and they have people show up and play and they can get good numbers. I haven't had a chance to get to one of there game days to ask them but from what I have heard everyone likes the smaller fleets

You and others say a pass rule would kill MSU lists. Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing. what if new people want to only fly 2-3 ship lists with a lot of squadron but cant because you need to play 5+ ship lists so you don't get punished every game.

Do you find it hard to get new Players into the game once you tell them that to have a chance you cant take those 3 ISD in a list that they really want to fly as you will get out activated and die? not saying it cant be done but it wont be fun. Its hard enough getting them to make the purchase for these ships knowing they wont get a chance to fly them in a tournament.

the other big advantage to smaller lists is games do go faster which is another plus when trying to get new players into the game. in the end that is what I'm all about trying to get new players in and in its current format its not an easy sell

That's an awfully lot "what if"s... And I would tell those new players that they aren't looking for Armada. Armada is a hard, complex game, soth sometimes difficult and constricting rules. You can either deal with it or if it's too much for you, play a simpler game.

But do not demand to degrade our beautiful complex game by removing rules just because you don't like them.

5 hours ago, X Wing Nut said:

I wouldnt say that just the Tactics used for the current MSU lists. If we have a pass rule I would still use lists with 2-6 ships as I build list to achieve a goal. the goal is what determinants what I build

You would be building lists with 3 ships at most. JJ has already articulated why. He and I have played games with a pass mechanic. Small ships would be dead.

I feel the argument for a pass rule is a natural extension from arguments about first/last and how powerful it can be. In order for 2 ships lists to compete currently they MUST have first player. They get obliterated if they don't. With the current game mechanics activation count and First player advantage are aspects of the game that need attention. The game designers feel they can address this by releasing upgrade cards. I hope they're right, but I think they're wrong.

I hope I'm dead wrong and that Governor Pryce is a massive success and gives large ships the nudge they need to bring their ability to compete with everything else that is out there. I'm one of the pessimistic ones out there as I think the new card will be considered worthless a month after release. Joining the ranks of Tagge, NK-7 Ion and other sad forgotten cards that just dont work.

I'd like to see a slight tweak in the rules vs an upgrade card. Somethings need a rule change vs a bandaid card and that's ok! Saying a rule needs to be tweak is NOT saying Armada is dead. Its something that is natural and common in a miniatures game. Look at Dang near any other miniature games' rule book and you'll see an edition number. It's a natural evolution of any game as it gets bigger. 40k, fanatasy, infinity, and Flames of War are all miniatures games that I've played in the past and they all have been through multiple editions of rules... some huge changes with others that only had minor tweaks to an already great rule set.