Control and Ownership¶ ↑

A card's owner is the player who included the card as a part of his or her deck (i.e. dynasty deck, conflict deck, provinces, stronghold, role) at the beginning of the game.

By default, cards enter play under their owner's control. Some abilities may cause cards to change control during a game.
A player controls the cards in his or her out-of-play game areas (such as the hand, the dynasty and conflict decks, and the dynasty and conflict discard piles).
If a card would enter an out-of-play area of a player who does not own the card, the card is placed in its owner's equivalent out-of-play area instead. (For all associated card ability and framework effect purposes, the card is considered to have entered that opponent's out-of-play area, and only the physical placement of the card is adjusted.)
If a participating character changes control during a conflict, it is considered participating in the same conflict on the side of its new controller.
When a character changes control while it is in play, it remains in the same state as it was before (i.e., bowed or ready, participating or at home, etc.), and is now under the new player's control.
Attachments on a card that changes control do not themselves change control.
Unless a duration is specified, a control change persists as long as the card remains in play.

Seppun Ishikawa

Neutral Character. Bushi. Imperial.

Cost: 3. Military: 2. Political: 2. Glory: 2.

This character gets +1 and +1 for each other Imperial card you control.

Dynasty Deck

Fate Has No Secrets #90 —

So, are you honestly telling me, that this card gets +1/+1 for every Imperial Card in your graveyard regardless of type? This is insane.

Under the RR for Ability, it says:

"Card abilities only interact with, and can only target, cards that are in play, unless the ability specifically refers to an out-of-play area or element. Card abilities on characters, attachments, holdings, strongholds, and provinces can only be initiated or affect the game while they are in play unless the ability specifically refers to being used from an out-of-play area, or require that the card be out of play for the ability to resolve. Event cards and role cards implicitly interact with the game from an out-of-play area, as established by the rules of their cardtypes."

Counting cards counts as interactions, so it does not notice the cards in your discard, hand, or deck.

Interesting question - the fact that a player controls cards in their discard pile came up the other day as a Shiba Yojimbo was used to block my Shosuro Actress from stealing their shugenja from their discard. Seems like that applies since Shosuro Actress specifically targets the out of play area, and Shiba Yojimbo applies any time a triggered ability targets a shugenja you control...

idk about this one. As @AradonTemplar said abilities are supposed to only effect things in play. I don't imagine it would work for cards in your discard even though you control them. You control your hand and deck too so it'd be pretty crazy if this extended beyond in play areas.

3 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Interesting question - the fact that a player controls cards in their discard pile came up the other day as a Shiba Yojimbo was used to block my Shosuro Actress from stealing their shugenja from their discard. Seems like that applies since Shosuro Actress specifically targets the out of play area, and Shiba Yojimbo applies any time a triggered ability targets a shugenja you control...

idk about this one. As @AradonTemplar said abilities are supposed to only effect things in play. I don't imagine it would work for cards in your discard even though you control them. You control your hand and deck too so it'd be pretty crazy if this extended beyond in play areas.

Oh man that's a super interesting interaction, thanks for mentioning it. I guess it's fine, since you do control the card in the graveyard, and Yojimbo's not interacting with it at all, it just chooses an action.

55 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

Oh man that's a super interesting interaction, thanks for mentioning it. I guess it's fine, since you do control the card in the graveyard, and Yojimbo's not interacting with it at all, it just chooses an action.

It presents an interesting case though... Shosuro actress targeting a shugenja in the discard was what I ran into, and it seems legit enough... It introduces some interesting implications...

If I use Policy Debate and win the duel, then choose Seeker of Knowledge in your hand to discard the yojimbo could cancel that too...

I think the interrupt window to Policy Debate's ability has passed, by that point. You're doing the choosing in the 'effect' part of Policy Debate.

That being said, as a magic player, "controlling" out of play elements is super weird for me.

RR pg 9 in Initiating Abilities and Playing Cards states at step 7 (after the step 6 cancel window)

"Interrupts and reactions may be used throughout this process as normal, should their triggering conditions occur.

The triggering condition is that an effect would target a shugenja you control and triggering conditions can happen at any time just based on whether an effect is eminent or not. Just as you could use Reprieve to interrupt the triggering condition of a character leaving play after suffering a loss to Mirumoto Raitsugu you could use Shiba Yojimbo to interrupt the triggering condition created by losing Policy Debate if your opponent chooses a shugenja to discard.

Choosing is targeting. While targeting can be part of costs / restrictions for using an effect, targeting creates a triggering condition every time something is targeted that allows interrupt and reaction responses to it.

This is a bit different then Censure where the triggering condition is when an event is played. Shiba looks for the triggering condition that a shugenja you control is targeted. At that point she steps in and the rest of the effect is nullified.

Neither of these shenanigans with Shiba Yojimbo work. Abilities only consider cards in play unless they explicitly specify otherwise.

(Even if they did consider cards out of play you wouldn't be able to cancel a Policy Debate with her. Shiba Yojimbo cancels abilities when their effects attempt to initiate, the part where you discard a card as part of Policy Debate is well after the part where Policy Debate attempted to initiate).

22 minutes ago, GoblinGuide said:

Neither of these shenanigans with Shiba Yojimbo work. Abilities only consider cards in play unless they explicitly specify otherwise.

(Even if they did consider cards out of play you wouldn't be able to cancel a Policy Debate with her. Shiba Yojimbo cancels abilities when their effects attempt to initiate, the part where you discard a card as part of Policy Debate is well after the part where Policy Debate attempted to initiate).

She states that she triggers whenever an effect "targets a shugenja you control."

The RR page 4 Control and Ownership specifically states that you control every card in your out of play areas, ie hand, provinces, discard, and decks.

RR page 2 Ability states that card abilities only interact with, and can only target cards that are in play unless the ability specifically refers to an out of play area or element... but Shiba Yojimbo isn't targeting the out of play shugenja, or interacting with it. It is interrupting the triggering condition caused by the triggered ability on Policy Debate. Saying she can't do that would be like saying she can't cancel For Shame on a shugenja... and we all know she can do that.

Simple reasoning asks 2 things of her: 1) Is this a shugenja I control? and 2) Is targeting of this shugenja eminent? If these are yes then the Yojimbo can use her ability to cut that effect off at that moment, canceling the targeting and any remaining effects.

As I stated above - she isn't a cancel like Censure where she reacts to an event being initiated. She reacts to "when the effects of a triggered ability that targets a shugenja you control would initiate..." This could happen at any time. RR Page 9 Initiating Abilities and Playing Cards specifically states that you can react and interrupt any time throughout the processing of resolving an effect if the triggering condition occurs. It doesn't matter if its a cost, a targeting requirement, or the 3rd paragraph of effect text, once "targeting a shugenja you control" becomes eminent she can step in and shut it down.

You can submit a dev rules request if you want, and I'm happy to hear any arguments against this, but I don't see anything that stops her from wrecking these effects.

Reading the text box, it says when the effects would initiate, so we're past the point of initiation if we're resolving the Policy Debate. The choosing for Shosuro Actress happens as costs are being paid though, so I think you may be able to get that one.

30 minutes ago, shosuko said:

She states that she triggers whenever an effect "targets a shugenja you control."

The RR page 4 Control and Ownership specifically states that you control every card in your out of play areas, ie hand, provinces, discard, and decks.

RR page 2 Ability states that card abilities only interact with, and can only target cards that are in play unless the ability specifically refers to an out of play area or element... but Shiba Yojimbo isn't targeting the out of play shugenja, or interacting with it. It is interrupting the triggering condition caused by the triggered ability on Policy Debate. Saying she can't do that would be like saying she can't cancel For Shame on a shugenja... and we all know she can do that.

Simple reasoning asks 2 things of her: 1) Is this a shugenja I control? and 2) Is targeting of this shugenja eminent? If these are yes then the Yojimbo can use her ability to cut that effect off at that moment, canceling the targeting and any remaining effects.

As I stated above - she isn't a cancel like Censure where she reacts to an event being initiated. She reacts to "when the effects of a triggered ability that targets a shugenja you control would initiate..." This could happen at any time. RR Page 9 Initiating Abilities and Playing Cards specifically states that you can react and interrupt any time throughout the processing of resolving an effect if the triggering condition occurs. It doesn't matter if its a cost, a targeting requirement, or the 3rd paragraph of effect text, once "targeting a shugenja you control" becomes eminent she can step in and shut it down.

You can submit a dev rules request if you want, and I'm happy to hear any arguments against this, but I don't see anything that stops her from wrecking these effects.

The problem with your position is that it means that you can also play Cloud the Mind as long as there is a Shugenja somewhere in your deck, discard, hand or provinces; something we know is not the case.

The rules are pretty clear that effects attempt to initiate in step 6. She can only step in and cancel there; that's why she can't cancel a Policy Debate that is trying to discard a shugenja, and is also why she can't cancel a Court Games.

12 hours ago, GoblinGuide said:

The problem with your position is that it means that you can also play Cloud the Mind as long as there is a Shugenja somewhere in your deck, discard, hand or provinces; something we know is not the case.

The rules are pretty clear that effects attempt to initiate in step 6. She can only step in and cancel there; that's why she can't cancel a Policy Debate that is trying to discard a shugenja, and is also why she can't cancel a Court Games.

I'm hesitant to post because I've submitted the rules question, and am not particularly invested in whether this works or not. I didn't come up with it, and don't feel it "needs to work this way," to me this is simply an interesting ruling that creates some gray area we can play around in.

1) RR page 4 Control and Ownership point 2 - The rules state very clearly that you do control all cards in your out of play areas including your hand, both decks, discard piles, face down cards in provinces (not province cards, but the cards filling the provinces.)

2) RR page 2 Ability point 1 - The reason Cloud the Mind's play restriction isn't met by the many Shugenja a player may control in their deck, hand, or discard pile is because it only interacts with cards in play. This means the Shugenja must be in play for the play restriction of controlling a Shugenja to be met - but that doesn't mean you don't still control those shugenja, just that they don't count for play restrictions which isn't entirely relevant here.

3) Shosuro Actress ability allows its effect to target a character that is out of play. The Yojimbo is not targeting or interacting with the out of play Shugenja in your discard pile. Its only reacting to Actress ability, the actress and the ability are both in play allowing the Yojimbo to interact with it - and it is a triggered ability which is targeting a shugenja you control and its effect initiation is eminent.

I don't see any reason the Yojimbo wouldn't work in this case. As I said I've submitted a rules inquiry. I don't care what the answer is, but this has been fun.

There is a ruling posted by Brad Andres on Court Games and Shiba Yojimbo - but this is posted September 1st, the game didn't release until October 5th... can't say that's enough... but in my experience most dev rulings are actually based in the RR as posted so I used this as a guide and dove in deeper. I did find the element in the current RR that does prevent the Yojimbo from blocking the discard of a shugenja via Policy Debate (and it is the same thing that stops court games) but doesn't change what I've outlined above for Yojimbo and Shosuro Actress.

While RR page 9 Initiating Abilities / Playing Cards includes a note following point 7 specifically stating that reactions and interrupts can be used at any time during effect resolution if their triggering conditions occur - which I was referencing to argue that the Yojimbo could cancel mid-effect - I did more digging prompted by the Court Games ruling and found RR page 17 Triggering Conditions point 2 with this hidden gem (Note: for effects a "cancel" interrupt may prevent the effect from initiating, and the initiation of an effect is a separate triggering condition that precedes the effect's resolution. "Cancel" interrupts are the only type that would reference the initiation of an effect.) As you said if its after the dash its too late to cancel.

That's a firm nail in the coffin for that argument, the other is still unclear. If you have any actual RR document references to back up your claim that it couldn't work please share them. If you have a similar ruling share that too - if its just your opinion... that doesn't mean much, sorry. It was my opinion that you couldn't use Boarderland's Fortification ability to swap it with your SH... My opinion wasn't technically correct though even though it felt obvious to me that you shouldn't be able to move your SH. They had to correct the RR document to fix it.