On midi- chlorians, I read an article the other day that neatly sums up how I feel.

Basically, they aren't that bad, frankly. They don't get rid of the mystical nature of the force, they just push it back one level. They don't create the force, merely enable living beings to connect to it. And if we via the Jedi as potentially fallible narrators, then it makes things even more interesting.

Just now, Megatronrex said:

If I don't think of them as space bacteria then that just makes them seem more like Thetans to me. I think I'd prefer to keep thinking of them as space bacteria. Either way taking away the mystery of the Force diminished it in my eyes.

Odd. You would think it would increase the mystery, just like many religious practices/components/beliefs like communion and the Trinity.

Also: What are Thetans (prepares to add another movie/TV Show to the list)?

7 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Also: What are Thetans (prepares to add another movie/TV Show to the list)?

I wish it was from a TV show. Though for a very good and entertaining explanation you can watch the South Park episode: Trapped In The Closet. Thetans are, for lack of a better description, the disembodied spiritual beings responsible for your failure or successes in life. They're in everyone and for a fee you can be taught to control or even expel the spirits. They were first mentioned by the sci-fi writer L. Ron Hubbard and are one of the foundations of one of the religions he founded, Scientology.

43 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

I don't get it. What is wrong with midichlorians? Don't think of them as 'space bacteria'. Think of them as the living manifestation of the force within human beings. Not a source of the force, but of it.

I'm with Megatronrex on this one. It's like saying that in lotr the one ring us actually some kind of high end technically advanced device. I hate to say it trying to explain the force 20 years after it was introduced, and then nailing it down so definitely was not good story telling. It also raised the question that if you could measure them and detect them, with all of their advanced tech, why could you not create them. Thus making Jedi or acting like force juice?

53 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

I wish it was from a TV show. Though for a very good and entertaining explanation you can watch the South Park episode: Trapped In The Closet. Thetans are, for lack of a better description, the disembodied spiritual beings responsible for your failure or successes in life. They're in everyone and for a fee you can be taught to control or even expel the spirits. They were first mentioned by the sci-fi writer L. Ron Hubbard and are one of the foundations of one of the religions he founded, Scientology.

Ah scientology the biggest most sinister scam of the 20th century. It's really disturbing to know that it exists and how controlling it is. Look it up and be horrified.

Rebels is certainly worth watching for any Star Wars fan, no matter what age. But if you are pro-Imperial and tend to over-analyze a story about space wizards, prepare yourself for a host of incredibly silly ways for the Rebels to destroy ISDs.

2 hours ago, Megatronrex said:

You're right, it doesn't make any of it better. The force always felt so much more amazing and awe inspiring when it was undefined. Making midichlorians responsible for force powers will always bug me regardless of what story Lucas was trying to emulate.

You're right. It's kind of like science in the real world. By positing things like evolution and climate change, the scientists are just taking the fun and mystery out of reality. It was better when we could get our Truth from our pastor who knew what we needed to hear so that we could cope with life better.

9 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

You're right. It's kind of like science in the real world. By positing things like evolution and climate change, the scientists are just taking the fun and mystery out of reality. It was better when we could get our Truth from our pastor who knew what we needed to hear so that we could cope with life better.

That's not at all what I was saying. They didn't add any science they just took away the mysticism. I'm genuinely surprised that so many people have such a strong attachment to midichlorians. I'm not trying to convince any one to not like midichlorians I just personally don't and preferred it when the Force was more undefined. I also feel that the idea that science and religion are diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive is a fallacy.

2 hours ago, Noosh said:

I'm with Megatronrex on this one. It's like saying that in lotr the one ring us actually some kind of high end technically advanced device. I hate to say it trying to explain the force 20 years after it was introduced, and then nailing it down so definitely was not good story telling. It also raised the question that if you could measure them and detect them, with all of their advanced tech, why could you not create them. Thus making Jedi or acting like force juice?

Detection does not equal creation. That I think is a step too far.

I think the article Onidsen linked to sums it up nicely.

24 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Detection does not equal creation. That I think is a step too far.

I think the article Onidsen linked to sums it up nicely.

Thanks Ghost I somehow missed @Onidsen's whole post.

Just read the link. It still doesn't make me like them but at least this part made them somewhat more bearable.

Same goes for midi-chlorians, in one possible interpretation. Maybe midi-chlorians are as stupid an explanation of the Force as their real-world critics say they are. What if high midi-chlorian counts had a loose correlation to Force sensitivity, but weren’t actual causes of it, and the Jedi just misinterpreted their data? What if this was something like medieval doctors rambling on for centuries about humors and leeches — a faux-scientific delusion that was wholeheartedly embraced by a guild of people who loved to preach their own greatness to the hoi polloi? Perhaps the Jedi had thunk themselves into utter stupidity on an array of matters. Midi-chlorians were just one manifestation of their high-minded idiocy. From that point of view, the prequels are a tragedy about well-intentioned intellectuals whose myopic condescension led them onto a path of war and self-immolation.

I personally still think midi-chlorians are stupid and will still call them magic space bacteria or maybe space herpes because they just won't go away and we're all stuck with that s*** for the rest of our lives.

34 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

That's not at all what I was saying. They didn't add any science they just took away the mysticism. I'm genuinely surprised that so many people have such a strong attachment to midichlorians. I'm not trying to convince any one to not like midichlorians I just personally don't and preferred it when the Force was more undefined. I also feel that the idea that science and religion are diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive is a fallacy.

I do think that Star Wars would be better without them. And I like the mysticism of the sequels better than the technobabble of the prequels. But I don't think that the technobabble ruined Star Wars or anything. In fact, the idea of Jedi trying to explain the Force using midichlorians or some other scientific explanation seems to fit with the way the Order is portrayed in the prequels and the Clone Wars series. And for what it's worth, the Clone Wars series and Rebels after it brings a lot of mysticism to the table.

And I fully agree that the idea that science and religion are diametrically opposed is a sad fallacy.

Just now, Onidsen said:

I do think that Star Wars would be better without them. And I like the mysticism of the sequels better than the technobabble of the prequels. But I don't think that the technobabble ruined Star Wars or anything. In fact, the idea of Jedi trying to explain the Force using midichlorians or some other scientific explanation seems to fit with the way the Order is portrayed in the prequels and the Clone Wars series. And for what it's worth, the Clone Wars series and Rebels after it brings a lot of mysticism to the table.

And I fully agree that the idea that science and religion are diametrically opposed is a sad fallacy.

Oh I don't think they ruined Star Wars by any means but I did think it somewhat diminished the majesty of the force for me. I Just prefer my space opera midi-chlorian free that's all.

38 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

That's not at all what I was saying. They didn't add any science they just took away the mysticism. I'm genuinely surprised that so many people have such a strong attachment to midichlorians. I'm not trying to convince any one to not like midichlorians I just personally don't and preferred it when the Force was more undefined. I also feel that the idea that science and religion are diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive is a fallacy.

I'm not saying that that's what you were saying. I'm just saying that I agree with you.

The undefinition of the Force is what lends it its mystery. Again, it's like Newton having screwed up the Real World by saying that it operates by mathematics, rather than a benevolent God who works in mysterious ways. The world was so much more amazing and awe inspiring when it operated by faith and devotion, rather than E=MC² .

Just now, Mikael Hasselstein said:

I'm not saying that that's what you were saying. I'm just saying that I agree with you.

The undefinition of the Force is what lends it its mystery. Again, it's like Newton having screwed up the Real World by saying that it operates by mathematics, rather than a benevolent God who works in mysterious ways. The world was so much more amazing and awe inspiring when it operated by faith and devotion, rather than E=MC² .

Ah ok I misunderstood you. I now know that it wasn't my fault though. It wasn't really me who was wrong but my midi-chlorians who were dumb.

4 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

I'm not saying that that's what you were saying. I'm just saying that I agree with you.

The undefinition of the Force is what lends it its mystery. Again, it's like Newton having screwed up the Real World by saying that it operates by mathematics, rather than a benevolent God who works in mysterious ways. The world was so much more amazing and awe inspiring when it operated by faith and devotion, rather than E=MC² .

Eh.

im far too jaded on that.

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Eh.

im far too jaded on that.

Come on now you gotta give us more than that. Inquiring Imperial minds want to know.

Just now, Mikael Hasselstein said:

I'm not saying that that's what you were saying. I'm just saying that I agree with you.

The undefinition of the Force is what lends it its mystery. Again, it's like Newton having screwed up the Real World by saying that it operates by mathematics, rather than a benevolent God who works in mysterious ways. The world was so much more amazing and awe inspiring when it operated by faith and devotion, rather than E=MC² .

Hmm...I'm not sure I agree with that one. As a scientist myself, I still find much awe in the universe. And as a religious person, I haven't found that my study of science has interfered with my faith. If anything, it has deepened it and brought it nuance.

5 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

Come on now you gotta give us more than that. Inquiring Imperial minds want to know.

I wish I could say that I had not been chased at one point by a group of individuals spouting “suffer not a Witch to live...”,

but I’d be lying if I did.

5 minutes ago, Onidsen said:

Hmm...I'm not sure I agree with that one. As a scientist myself, I still find much awe in the universe. And as a religious person, I haven't found that my study of science has interfered with my faith. If anything, it has deepened it and brought it nuance.

Would you say the same about Midichlorians?

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I wish I could say that I had not been chased at one point by a group of individuals spouting “suffer not a Witch to live...”,

but I’d be lying if I did.

Holy crap man. I've lived my whole life in the Bible belt and never seen s*** like that. Those sound like some serious nut jobs.

25 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Would you say the same about Midichlorians?

Not per se.

But real world equivalents have. In particular, I'm thinking of the research into epilepsy and similar things and their relationship to reported spiritual experiences.

Or historical and textual criticism of ancient religious texts.

Both are reasonable equivalents, I think.

1 hour ago, Onidsen said:

Hmm...I'm not sure I agree with that one. As a scientist myself, I still find much awe in the universe. And as a religious person, I haven't found that my study of science has interfered with my faith. If anything, it has deepened it and brought it nuance.

There’s always gaps in the information where god can be found. I’ve heard that from quite a few members of the scientific community.

4 hours ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

I'm not saying that that's what you were saying. I'm just saying that I agree with you.

The undefinition of the Force is what lends it its mystery. Again, it's like Newton having screwed up the Real World by saying that it operates by mathematics, rather than a benevolent God who works in mysterious ways. The world was so much more amazing and awe inspiring when it operated by faith and devotion, rather than E=MC² .

Odd, really don't get that at all. The problem with faith-based settings is that it 'has all the answers'. In contrast, once you know how parts of a system work functionally, it very quickly becomes apparent that a working knowledge of something is nothing at all like a complete knowledge of it. And, indeed, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.

And I think that applies, here, and makes the midi-chlorians a useful addition. Before them, being a Jedi was only a religion, and it seemed like the sort of thing that anyone could do if they just tried hard enough.

That's just boring. At least, from a 'fictional universe' perspective. From the perspective of a fictional universe, it's much more interesting to have groups segmented apart via some means, and have specific walls to do that. Here, midi-chlorians pointing to Force sensitivity. They are in all living cells, after all - so in the end, everyone has some access to the Force. But that it's a fixed thing means some people will be able to 'listen' to it easier than others without having being able to control it well enough to compel it to do things for them (Chirrut Îmwe, for example - clearly can sense the Force very well, but can't do the Jedi-like manipulation of it such as...lifting rocks, and such). So you have a setting where some people have an innate ability to connect to the Force...do they develop that, or not? Other people have much less ability to connect to the Force...some still develop what they have, others don't, maybe some end up believing in luck more than usual. etc.

It creates potential points of story conflict, which (again, in a fictional universe) is always good.