2 minutes ago, Scummy Rebel said:

If I was going to do that why would I specifically have said sell GENERIC versions?

I've got nothing against people wanting something unique to show their achievements in plastic space ship combat. I have plenty of my own "cheap plastic" and I happen to like it and don't see a problem with anyone else who wants official stuff at non-eBay inflated prices as well. The idea that this concept ruffles feathers so much would be hillarous if it wasn't so sad.

Most people being understanding and not petty about non-official tools it isn't an argument for not trying to solve the problem entirely. If anything it's an argument for just allowing approved third-party tools in the rules as darth sanguis suggested. Boom, problem solved everyone wins. Why argue against that? What does it cost you?

It doesn’t cost me anything and I personally wouldn’t have a problem with it but I don’t run FFG lol. I have some 3rd party range rulers and love them.

15 minutes ago, Scummy Rebel said:

Most people being understanding and not petty about non-official tools it isn't an argument for not trying to solve the problem entirely. If anything it's an argument for just allowing approved third-party tools in the rules as darth sanguis suggested. Boom, problem solved everyone wins. Why argue against that? What does it cost you?

@Drasnighta

Aren't 3rd party range and distance tools officially allowed already?

1 minute ago, Megatronrex said:

@Drasnighta

Aren't 3rd party range and distance tools officially allowed already?

Sort of.

"Legal Products

Players may use only official Star Wars: Armada components in tournament play, with the following exceptions for third-party replacements:

• Non-essential tokens (see “Tokens” on page 9)
• Range rulers that match the dimensions of an official range ruler or a particular section of an official range ruler

Determining the legality of any questionable third-party tokens and range rulers is the marshal’s responsibility . Proxies of cards are not allowed unless used under the rules of “Lost and Damaged Components” on page 8. Components can be modified only as described under “Component Modifications” on page 7. If a player uses the Star Wars™ Dice App, the device with the app must be displayed in full view of both players at all times, and his or her opponent may request to share the app. All Star Wars: Armada components are legal for Standard Play tournaments except the campaign objective cards included in The Corellian Conflict Campaign Expansion. Custom “setup” templates designed to aid players in ship deployment are not allowed. Players can only use their range rulers to help them set up fleets during deployment. For Relaxed and Formal events, all product is legal in North America upon the product's official release. For Premier events, all product is legal in North America 11 days—typically the second Monday—after the product's official release. Official dates will be updated on the Product Legality page on our website (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/op/legality/sw). Players outside North America should check with their organizer to determine which products are tournament legal."

The issue I see some people running into is, there are several "offical" FFG rulers that don't match in size, even some of the cardboard ones are wrong. Without an official declaration of what each distance and range is supposed to be, it could cause conflict. It's really up to the TO to decide.

6 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

@Drasnighta

Aren't 3rd party range and distance tools officially allowed already?

Yes, they are, in the tournament regulations.

Range Rulers and non essential tokens.

(essential tokens being ship tokens)

Always subject to marshals approval

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Yes, they are, in the tournament regulations.

Range Rulers and non essential tokens.

(essential tokens being ship tokens)

That's what I thought. I knew you'd have the right answer. As far as d*** Rebel traitors go you're not too bad.

1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Sort of.

"Legal Products

Players may use only official Star Wars: Armada components in tournament play, with the following exceptions for third-party replacements:

• Non-essential tokens (see “Tokens” on page 9)
• Range rulers that match the dimensions of an official range ruler or a particular section of an official range ruler

Determining the legality of any questionable third-party tokens and range rulers is the marshal’s responsibility . Proxies of cards are not allowed unless used under the rules of “Lost and Damaged Components” on page 8. Components can be modified only as described under “Component Modifications” on page 7. If a player uses the Star Wars™ Dice App, the device with the app must be displayed in full view of both players at all times, and his or her opponent may request to share the app. All Star Wars: Armada components are legal for Standard Play tournaments except the campaign objective cards included in The Corellian Conflict Campaign Expansion. Custom “setup” templates designed to aid players in ship deployment are not allowed. Players can only use their range rulers to help them set up fleets during deployment. For Relaxed and Formal events, all product is legal in North America upon the product's official release. For Premier events, all product is legal in North America 11 days—typically the second Monday—after the product's official release. Official dates will be updated on the Product Legality page on our website (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/op/legality/sw). Players outside North America should check with their organizer to determine which products are tournament legal."

The issue I see some people running into is, there are several "offical" FFG rulers that don't match in size, even some of the cardboard ones are wrong. Without an official declaration of what each distance and range is supposed to be, it could cause conflict. It's really up to the TO to decide.

“Even some of the cardboard ones are wrong”

thats a a hard sell. By definition, an un-modified FFG ruler from the core set is correct. Inherently.

in fact, having one come out not perfect (with a permanent warped twist) was not enough for me to get a replacement from FFG as it did not qualify as a damaged component.

13 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

“Even some of the cardboard ones are wrong”

thats a a hard sell. By definition, an un-modified FFG ruler from the core set is correct. Inherently.

in fact, having one come out not perfect (with a permanent warped twist) was not enough for me to get a replacement from FFG as it did not qualify as a damaged component.

Which is why there could be conflict.

I've seen 3 cardboard rulers, all in good condition, no warps or bends, un-modded, all at different lengths. The smallest one was 1/8" shorter than the largest one.

Which one do you deem "correct"? The smaller one would match many of the FFG acrylic rulers that are commonly referred to as too short, while the largest one matches some of the acrylic ones that are supposedly stable.

Even if "by definition" the core set ruler is correct, there's a standard measurement that these are supposed to conform to, we should have access to that information.

11 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Which is why there could be conflict.

I've seen 3 cardboard rulers, all in good condition, no warps or bends, un-modded, all at different lengths. The smallest one was 1/8" shorter than the largest one.

Which one do you deem "correct"? The smaller one would match many of the FFG acrylic rulers that are commonly referred to as too short, while the largest one matches some of the acrylic ones that are supposedly stable.

Even if "by definition" the core set ruler is correct, there's a standard measurement that these are supposed to conform to, we should have access to that information.

Why should we have access to information that is essentially proprietary and only enabling a 3rd market which the company only tolerates and not condones?

Also, @Darth Sanguis - they are all correct.

Any one chosen for use is correct.

and if you fear some discrepancy, then you simple state that you wish for one ruler to be shared.

that will then be the most correct of correct rulers .

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Why should we have access to information that is essentially proprietary and only enabling a 3rd market which the company only tolerates and not condones?

Well I mean to be fair there would be a far smaller 3rd party market if they just sold plastic range rulers. By their lack of action to make those widely available, they do kind of leave players in a bit of a bind when theirs gets lost, damaged, and eaten by a cat.

Seriously though don't let your cat near those rulers. It's like a CR 90 getting BTAed it's bad.

2 minutes ago, Noosh said:

Well I mean to be fair there would be a far smaller 3rd party market if they just sold plastic range rulers. By their lack of action to make those widely available, they do kind of leave players in a bit of a bind when theirs gets lost, damaged, and eaten by a cat.

No different than when Grand Moff Tarkin does, really.

Damage or loss after the fact is, by legal definition, the users responsibility to replace.

so long as the ability to officially do so is there, that is all that is required.

since there is no one-per-person embargo on buying core sets, the ability to replace s ruler exists.

is it cheap or exactly he way we want it? No. I’d love to get an official, non-3rd party replacement without buying a core set.

but that’s all they are legally required and expected to do.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Also, @Darth Sanguis - they are all correct.

"Sorry player one, though your official FFG ruler isn't damaged, warped, modded or otherwise unacceptable, I'm ruling that the "game deciding" front arc shot from your ISD II avenger is not in medium range because your opponent's official FFG ruler, which is somehow just as correct as yours though being .125" shorter in size, when measured across the same length does not reach cardboard to cardboard. Even though yours does. I base this decision on the fact that player two's ruler is closer, not exact mind you, in relation to my own ruler than yours is, even though mine does not match others exactly either."

GG competitive play.


If they want to be taken seriously, they need standards. Either their own, in the QC department, or released publicly because they're either too lazy or don't care enough to do it themselves.

5 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

"Sorry player one, though your official FFG ruler isn't damaged, warped, modded or otherwise unacceptable, I'm ruling that the "game deciding" front arc shot from your ISD II avenger is not in medium range because your opponent's official FFG ruler, which is somehow just as correct as yours though being .125" shorter in size, when measured across the same length does not reach cardboard to cardboard. Even though yours does. I base this decision on the fact that player two's ruler is closer, not exact mind you, in relation to my own ruler than yours is, even though mine does not match others exactly either."

GG competitive play.


If they want to be taken seriously, they need standards. Either their own, in the QC department, or released publicly because they're either too lazy or don't care enough to do it themselves.

There’s your answer.

The assumption you have made is they intend to be taken seriously.

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

There’s your answer.

The assumption you have made is they intend to be taken seriously.

Yeah, I guess that's on me.


Why would I assume a money seeking entity with IPs owned by Disney wanted to be taken seriously.

Stupid, stupid me.

16 hours ago, Scummy Rebel said:

Easily said when you're someone who consistently gets said loot.

I don't begrudge players getting frustrated over not being able to win. To be clear I don't mean I believe anyone is entited to win, that's obviously ridiculous. Rather I sympathize with them since the prizes are the only way to get things like official acrylic tools and tokens that FFG should be selling generic versions of to anyone who wants anyway.

In order to win you have to be good and the best way to get better is to get practice, and the best practice is actual tournaments.

1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Yeah, I guess that's on me.


Why would I assume a money seeking entity with IPs owned by Disney wanted to be taken seriously.

Stupid, stupid me.

The main difference is, For lack of a better term, what “taken seriously” means.

They have a level they aspire to - and that level is to encourage primarily fun games, with actual competitiveness being a secondary.

I mean, one could argue if they wanted to be taken seriously, they would have a lawyer double check all of their rules and would award cash prizes for competitions.

becausr anything less than that isn’t serious.

again, hyperbole on my part, butbillustrative of the difference in view.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

No different than when Grand Moff Tarkin does, really.

Damage or loss after the fact is, by legal definition, the users responsibility to replace.

so long as the ability to officially do so is there, that is all that is required.

since there is no one-per-person embargo on buying core sets, the ability to replace s ruler exists.

is it cheap or exactly he way we want it? No. I’d love to get an official, non-3rd party replacement without buying a core set.

but that’s all they are legally required and expected to do.

I get that, but the point remains were we talking about almost anything else you get when you buy any Armada save the ship and the stat cardboard themselves can and will have replacements along the natural course of buying other ships that are essential to play. Grand moff Tarkin is not, but the range ruler is pretty non negotiable. Heck we can buy more manuver tools and dice, it just perplexes me that the range ruler has no ffg buy here and now thing. Even if half of my tokens dials and cards got cat-tastrophied I could still probably pick up what's was left and play, but the moment the range ruler goes, I got nothing. No 15 bucks to my flgs to keep things moving, no tape measure to temporarily fill the gap, just hoping somebody got a ruler to spare.

Dras your right it's their progative To do as they see fit, sell what and how they sell things. But the range ruler is an essential part of the game and I wish they would at least do something to offer a spare/ replacement not at 100 bucks. I'd be happy buying the CC to get another one anything other than relying on me not losing thing/ cat not eating things. I'm literally saying to FFG 'shut up and take my money, as long as it's around $30 or so' (it could be more, but it would be nice in a campaign box).

In short, if you can define “taken seriously “ for me, we can proceed with a discussion on how they can meet or exceed targets, or not...

Becsusr I think they do pretty good as far as game companies go... Could they do more? Sure. But even me, whose life recently seemingly relies on the one piece of bright spark that is Armada... is thinkingthey do “okay”, and certainly dont think they are s joke, which would be the opposite of being taken seriously ?

They need quality control.

An 1/8" to 3/16" for tolerances on parts for a game that require accuracy is not good. At all. In earnest, I could probably achieve a tighter tolerance using my 3D printer, which by manufacturing standards is a joke.

In the scene just joked about above, I was player one. That actually happened. Now, instead of being a jerk and contesting it with my opponent, or asking a TO to come resolve it, as it was just a casual game, I conceded the shot. I'm more about nurturing an environment than I am beating some guy in a game. But these things do happen.

Had it been a tournament regionals nationals or otherwise, I'd have been furious. That's the kind of thing to make me reevaluate my investment. Straight up.

Losing to a another player, I can handle, I recognize I am not top tier.

Losing to a product defect.

/tilt/

Happened to me many times.

because I can’t win, and I can’t afford 3rd party, and o can’t get my damaged one replaced.

So I roll with it.

And I watch multiple time winners give their prizes to last placers when I ran the tournament and am not playing that day.

happens.

In any given Store Championship, anyone with reasonable skills can win. In a 3-round sprint, anything can happen.

When we are talking Nationals and above, it would make sense if the "good" players win. What's the point of any competition if talent/skills don't contribute to performance?

Haha... that why I propose the 4+4 format for Nats and above. Kinda like how golf has the cut after two rounds in a four round tournament. The goal would be to make the cut. Under this system, I would argue. that good players will advance to Day 2 usually. On Day 1, everybody gets a lot of games in.

Movie tickets are $12 for 2-hours of entertainment. If you get 3-4 rounds of enjoyment, how much is it worth to you? That being said, things at Nats and above are really stressful to me. LOL

But, hey, we all have reasons why we do what we do. Do what is right for you.

Wait is this thread about the rules organizing the tourney, or are we complaining that there's no range ruler to buy separately? Because I think we started at the former and we are ending at the latter.

Which I might add seems to be how most of these threads go.

19 minutes ago, Noosh said:

Wait is this thread about the rules organizing the tourney, or are we complaining that there's no range ruler to buy separately? Because I think we started at the former and we are ending at the latter.