So after reading the tournament rules for Armada events regarding the number of Swiss rounds, the question I have is, “Why the **** would anyone bother to play a major tournament event if they are not already the top players?”

The reasoning is this: Once you pass the eight man mark, making a top 4 cut seems impossible if you did not win your round 1 game. Making top 8 is impossible if you did not win your first round game when there are 16 or more players. In other games, events with more than dozen people can go up to 4 or 5 rounds to reach a point where only one person has an undefeated record, giving players who have a bad matchup off the bat a chance to recover if they perform better in the mid rounds.

And that’s without discussing the “bye rewards”that skew the outcome even further.

Wish i could say i was surprised by FFG shenigans but I continually discover their ability to introduce new ways to disappoint me with their short sightedness is absolutely limitless.

I'm gonna torpedo your entire premise. I've won a Regional after losing a first round game. Swiss pairings with 4+ rounds have an equalizing effect.

It sounds like your question boils down to "why play the game if I'm not going to win?"

Huh?

Example Tournament - 18 players. Score spread: 26, 25, 23, 21 (See Ohio Regional for a similar spread)

Round 1: Loss - 5/6
Round 2: Win - 10/1
Round 3: Win - 10/1
Total: 25 points = 2nd place

Round 1: Loss - 1/10
Round 2: Win - 10/1
Round 3: Win - 10/1
Total: 21 points = 4th place

I mean, in any tournament, you are going to reduce the number of players that are undefeated by 1/2 each round (maybe 1/2+1 if there are an odd number and an undefeated player plays and loses to a player with 1 loss). So in an 8 player tournament (3 round minimum) you have 8>4>2>1 for only a single undefeated player at the end. That means anyone that loses Round 1 is very much capable of winning big in their remaining 2 games and getting 2nd place. In a 16 player tournament, you have 16>8>4>2 for only two potentially undefeated players, which means 3rd and 4th are both up for grabs as single loss places. Even if you go right to the edge of "Advanced" tournament setups, with 27 players, you have 27>14>7>4 at the best case scenario, and 27>13>6>3 as a more likely scenario. Now, the "worst" of those 3 non-loss player is likely averaging around 7 points per win, as he hadn't had to play any of the "better" undefeated players, and 7 points per win is 21 points... meaning a single loss player could (and probably did) vault him for 3rd place.

3 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

I'm gonna torpedo your entire premise. I've won a Regional after losing a first round game. Swiss pairings with 4+ rounds have an equalizing effect.

Yeah I was just going to say @Roquax won Michigan going 3-1.....

I play tournaments for two main reasons. First, I like to get a day of gaming in. Since Armada take more time and space to play, I don’t get as many casual games in as I would like, but at a tournament I get to play 3 or 4 games in one day. I also like playing in tournaments because I learn more in tournaments than any other thing I can do for Armada. The fact that I see a variety of lists, skill levels and play styles really helps me hone my game. And guess I still do win sometimes, so fun all around.

That being said, the tournaments I have played in only really care about your score (then margins of victory to break ties, and only strength of schedule if they need a further tie breaker). So my experience has not been anything like yours.

Also the reason you play in a tournament is to get 3+ games of Armada played in a single day. If you're playing it for the "best" loot you're doing it wrong.

Lol there are actually tactics where people try to semi throw the first game so they make it easier to get 10/1 games later on. I'm not saying that's a "great" idea but ya, you can still do solid with a 5/6 first game.

You emphasize the record, defeated, undefeated, but the real emphasis in Armada is upon the scoring. I went 1-2 once and won a tournament in which one other player went 3-0. I had a 10 and 2 5s for 20 points. The 3-0 had 3 6-5 wins for 18 points. The other player who beat me was also 6-5ed by the 3-0 player, had a 6-5 against me (11), but only scored an 8 against the third player. That may seem like a weird result, but Armada is more about the quality of the wins and the scoring. Of course, yesterday, I went 3-0 and took second in the tournament. I was the only 3-0 player, had the strongest strength of schedule, but two of the wins against quality opponents were 6-5 margins.

The scoring is great because it allows you to recover.

And if you only play for the win, or the prizes or whatever, I think your heart is in a place where you'll ultimately wind up dissatisfied and disappointed. Many of us play for the art, for the thrill of putting ourselves against others, and almost all of us are completely ok losing. That's what makes tournaments such a delightful place to make and meet new friends. It isn't about the game, it is about finding a band of brothers.

Yeah, I believe Boris has misunderstood the tournament structure. Give it a re-read and see what you think.

But I mostly play in them for the three games with cool people.

11 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

Also the reason you play in a tournament is to get 3+ games of Armada played in a single day. If you're playing it for the "best" loot you're doing it wrong.

Easily said when you're someone who consistently gets said loot.

I don't begrudge players getting frustrated over not being able to win. To be clear I don't mean I believe anyone is entited to win, that's obviously ridiculous. Rather I sympathize with them since the prizes are the only way to get things like official acrylic tools and tokens that FFG should be selling generic versions of to anyone who wants anyway.

21 minutes ago, Scummy Rebel said:

official acrylic tools and tokens

Personal opinion here:

I'm all for the tokens, though I think 3rd party is perfectly fine for these. The acrylic measuring tools though? While acrylic is nice, FFG seems to be consistently screwing up the measurements for these. The alt art and the tokens tend to be the most available prizes, and those are what I'm looking for.

That all said, the game play is the fun part. I'll take 3 games of Armada in a day over component upgrades.

13 minutes ago, Scummy Rebel said:

Easily said when you're someone who consistently gets said loot.

This pissed me off. I'm not sure if you meant to, but it did.
I have given away dice, range rulers, alt-art cards. I have passed on TO prizes, so more players could get something. I have flown Konstantine as my Commander in a Store Championship because I lost a bet.

I have chosen sub-optimal objectives for myself, and from others, because it would make a more exciting game.

I stayed up 30 hours so that I could attend a regional. I showed up to a regional with 8.5 hemoglobin and no immune system, and wore a face mask the entire time, and popped Zofran like it was candy to fight off chemo induced nausea.

It's easily said because it's true. I go to tournaments because I like playing this game, and want to play 3+ times in a single day.

1 hour ago, BiggsIRL said:

Also the reason you play in a tournament is to get 3+ games of Armada played in a single day. If you're playing it for the "best" loot you're doing it wrong.

If i am paying to play, i do want a fair chance at winning something for the money. I can play 3 games in a day and not spend a dime.

To the other snarky response above, same answer. A 14+ player event shouldn’t mean one and done for anyone.

In other Swiss events I have played and organized, a first round game loss puts you in the lower bracket but after you pass 8 players it takes 4 rounds to get to the point where one player is undefeated. Somewhere around 16, it takes 5 rounds. And if you pass 20 it sure as **** takes more than that, somewhere around 6. The more games played, the more chances a player has to average out their results.

1 minute ago, BiggsIRL said:

This pissed me off. I'm not sure if you meant to, but it did.
I have given away dice, range rulers, alt-art cards. I have passed on TO prizes, so more players could get something. I have flown Konstantine as my Commander in a Store Championship because I lost a bet.

I have chosen sub-optimal objectives for myself, and from others, because it would make a more exciting game.

I stayed up 30 hours so that I could attend a regional. I showed up to a regional with 8.5 hemoglobin and no immune system, and wore a face mask the entire time, and popped Zofran like it was candy to fight off chemo induced nausea.

It's easily said because it's true. I go to tournaments because I like playing this game, and want to play 3+ times in a single day.

You seemed to miss the point entirely, which wasn't to piss you off. After that I'm such an awesome member of the community rant (which I'm not sure what it has to do with anything) I'm not sure I care though.

The point isn't that you don't play for fun, the point is it might be harder to empathize with someone who is after acrylic tools if you have them and usually get them. If you understand and do empathize then I'm not sure why you got all worked up and felt the need to tell me what a martyr for the game you are instead of just saying "yeah I get that, it'd be nice if they sold something official"

1 hour ago, Truthiness said:

I'm gonna torpedo your entire premise. I've won a Regional after losing a first round game. Swiss pairings with 4+ rounds have an equalizing effect.

How many players in that event? I don’t agree about the equalizing effect. I’ve seen players lose round one and then climb all the way to the top row in a large event, but not when they only have two more games to play.

Wait, is it common practice for tourneys to be pay ro play? I AM NOT a man who dose competive play anymore (gave that sort of thing up long before this game) and i am legit curious. Furthure more if it is pay to play, is it an ffg mandate or is it to pay for loot kits?

Just now, Noosh said:

Wait, is it common practice for tourneys to be pay ro play? I AM NOT a man who dose competive play anymore (gave that sort of thing up long before this game) and i am legit curious. Furthure more if it is pay to play, is it an ffg mandate or is it to pay for loot kits?

It’s both, as i understand it. I believe in supporting stores but i expect a fair chances doing well enough to get something for the trouble

Just now, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

It’s both, as i understand it. I believe in supporting stores but i expect a fair chances doing well enough to get something for the trouble

Everyone gets an alternative art card if not 2. The kits cost money for the store and the store charges players.

honestly I am a bit upset that you think having a good chunk of players show up for tournaments. Not everyone has a big community to play with you know, let alone stores to support your community.

I used to think I played for the fun of it.

Then I lost so badly this last Regionals that I missed out on those acrylic defense tokens.

Now I know.

I play for the loot.

(j/k)

Ok I kinda see whats going on here. It's the i payed for the prizses vs i payed for the play debate...its as old as wargames. Simple solution, remove the pay barrier, problem solved. That may entail less shop tournies, and this soulution is most certianly predicated of the shop owner but i have found that it is the best way to remove this kind of anger. Which i may add can and will kill local gaming commuinities, that are competitly based. Thay starve themselfs out of new blood and only the winningest old gard stays, it can really be rough. But these sort of things are bigger or smaller problems too when it comes to the money avaible to the community on average.

I play tournaments to see other people's lists and play styles in a hostile environment. Also just to hang out and maybe get swag.

5 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Everyone gets an alternative art card if not 2. The kits cost money for the store and the store charges players.

honestly I am a bit upset that you think having a good chunk of players show up for tournaments. Not everyone has a big community to play with you know, let alone stores to support your community.

I live in a community with less than 10 players so i understand the challenge with that. 7 to 10 hour haul to have your day decided in less than the first 90 minutes just seems like a waste.

25 minutes ago, Scummy Rebel said:

You seemed to miss the point entirely, which wasn't to piss you off. After that I'm such an awesome member of the community rant (which I'm not sure what it has to do with anything) I'm not sure I care though.

The point isn't that you don't play for fun, the point is it might be harder to empathize with someone who is after acrylic tools if you have them and usually get them. If you understand and do empathize then I'm not sure why you got all worked up and felt the need to tell me what a martyr for the game you are instead of just saying "yeah I get that, it'd be nice if they sold something official"

You misunderstand.

I am not saying what a nice person I am.

I am saying get used to getting nothing because not even cancer can stop me from showing up and taking all of the prize and then giving it away to some random guy who just played his first game that day. Such is my dedication and promise to this community.

So if you aren't showing up just to enjoy 3 games of Armada, too bad. Because all the prizes are going to my cancer riddled Konstantine using Blockade Run playing self.

I will drag you into enjoying the game for its own sake and not for plastic crap whether you like it or not.

37 minutes ago, Scummy Rebel said:

You seemed to miss the point entirely, which wasn't to piss you off. After that I'm such an awesome member of the community rant (which I'm not sure what it has to do with anything) I'm not sure I care though.

The point isn't that you don't play for fun, the point is it might be harder to empathize with someone who is after acrylic tools if you have them and usually get them. If you understand and do empathize then I'm not sure why you got all worked up and felt the need to tell me what a martyr for the game you are instead of just saying "yeah I get that, it'd be nice if they sold something official"

You can easily find these items like acrylic tokens and range rulers and alt art cards on eBay so I’m not sure why you are complaining. Go check out eBay and you can probably purchase these items.