44 minutes ago, Stefan said:

I've written about the themes and character arcs in TLJ; might interest you guys: https://www.patreon.com/posts/star-wars-last-15994181

I was reading your essay, impressive and certainly forcefully arguing your points. But 90%, I couldnt disagree more. Please take my word that my criticism is not of you.

What you might think about a bit is (and here I might make an unjustified projection from me to a significant majority of the people who dont like the movie) the following: Almost everything in this movie (maybe with the exception of the Luke part) is cheap. Simply cheap. If Finn is miraculously swayed by the (I assume) semi-slave children, so be it, but all you need is showing them a ring and you receive tacit approval to take the mounts, while the whole galaxy sends nothing when Leia Organa sends a request to help? Not to mention that the whole ring showing itself is again super cheesy, but back to the point of cheap, am I to swallow that the Rebels at Scarif had more material than THE WHOLE resitance and the WHOLE (sry caps) New Republic together managed? All because the already super cheesy concept of leeching suns and shooting planets killed the capital planet and I am made to believe that 100% of the forces, of the leadership and everything else has perished? Even with giving them the benefit of the doubt that Mon Mothma might have disliked military enough to not have a whole lot of fleet, in which galaxy will you not have your forces split? Or has the FO wiped out everything else also from the time of the Starkiller hit to the time of episode 8? Maybe a lot happened and nobody cared or wanted to inform the audience on those trifle matters, I dont know, but that leads me back to cheap. Again, maybe I am in the super minority that asks too much from a SW movie, but if all the things you mention come from a well defined, well planned thought process, then where is the stuff that makes the whole context believable. There are many Disney movies to chose from where thee is no need for context...especially insulting when its true that they are so aware of their 7 previous movies.

Lets for a second forget what Snoke and Kylo want and do (thx for nothing regarding Snokes background...but again, maybe I am the only one interested in those kind of things), its just inexcusably cheap to picture the FO in the parody of a parody style of the first 20 minutes. Its simply not believable that any like "successful" organization would create characters like that on the top. And if Disney on purpose made a caricature of the FO, then again, super cheap, and what is that purpose? To make the audience *really* dislike them, on every level? Or make it easier for 7 year olds to stomach the movie when the baddies are clownesk in the worst sense? I dont know, really.

Same cheap move with Snoke. Up to the last second they let him brag and be super arrogant and so full of himself...I bet you everything only to make it *so more surprising* to the unexpected and uninitiated audience that Kylo kills him (which 100% of us knew would happen, like with Han, like with Rey not accepting, like with Kylo taking over). It would really help to know anything about Snoke to stomach that. Of course it happened before, with Vader turning on Palpatine, but the connection between Vader and Luke was more credible than Kylos wish to field the void that, apparently, came into existence very suddendly. Not long ago he tried everything to please Snoke, and Snoke gave him the satisfaction to recognize that...faith renewed, or something like that. Sure, maybe in the backs of their heads things changed and there really was a break and a closure, but again, we as audience have not been made privy to that. We can guess, and with that guess defend what we like or attack what we dont like. What we are given is cheap dialogue, thats all.

Rey and her parentage? A minute ago the FO didnt even know Rey, next thing we know they tell her who her parents where. Did they see it in her mind? She didnt know, apparently, but ok, Force stuff. They sent agents to Jakku in the meantime? Possible, but I would think Rey would have tried to get info from the same people the FO went to to investigate. And with her Force powers, knowingly or not, she could have had success. Again, we are asked to simply lean back, not question those anything.

I also dont see wall breaking, I see references that tie in the movies, especially for older fans. The Falcon lives, there is no breakage with history in saying they hate this ship. The FO didnt need to interact with this ship, because Kylo and Snoke, and by extension the leadership, know very well who flies that junk and whats their significance. This is personal.

This is not going to end as you think? For me, Luke thinks that Rey thinks she can persuade Kylo. He clearly disagrees. He clearly is and always was right, as there is an Episode 9. They wont give up Kylo, because, as you say, he is the only interesting one (it cost me a little bit to write that, because next to the caricature they made of Phasma and Hux, and the killing of Snoke, he is the only one and the bar is not high). I thought about your giving this sentence more meaning than the issue at hand. I am not sure what really has ben put on its head. I fully expected Rose sacrifice, but admittedly I thought she would fly into this thing instead of Finn, Rey did not turn, Kylo did not turn, Luke did not leave the island (and noboy ever thought Luke would not in the end intervene somehow) and died there, as he claimed, Rey never said her parents are extradorinary, so her expectations couldnt be turned on their head (or you mean ours? I was interested in this question and Snokes identity, but I had no expectations), Poe expected purely to kill a ship as they had the chance to kill one, and kill it they did (nowhere we have been told that Poe sees anything strategic in it), Holdo did exactly as most captains of every doomed ship in every movie do and stays behind...preferably with a final heroic stunt, and so on.

The fight for the thing you love stuff, I dont know. Again, this strikes me as super cheesy, supr one-dimensional, the go-to sentence. For sure Han didnt shoot at Luke in the Death Star trench, just to keep him fromgetting shot by Vader. By all interpretations, the trench run was a suicide mission to stop the machine from doing greater harm. Finn thought he could save the resistance base, the trench pilots thought they could save their base. Its a bit late to suddendly not fight fire with fire within, I stress the within, SW and the particular situation. But ok, Rose fell in love with Finn in the few hours they had together (cant remember from the movie, the fuel was at which level when they left for the casino?). I could call that super cheesy, or super convenient, but who I am to argue with love.

Argue I can with the whole casino business, too. Lets put aside the convenience of having this planet so close (heck, even lightspeed travel can take a day, but ok, the only guy slicery enough is on that planet, in that casino...Resistance is not lacking field intel, apparently, but, hey Maz, nice to make it into the movie, hope your mysterious fight ends well...so cheesy), they fly there, are in a hurry, understandbly, and are no professionals that might know this parking issue could be detrimental, find the guy but dont even talk to him because hey, there is another one. Totally and 100% superfluous, what can the new guy do that the other cant? Oh, they need someone in the prison cell to free Finn, convenient, lets make him the second best slicer in the world, as well. This casino is known to draw them. (having said that, maybe I truly misunderstood something and the guy with the flower was the wrong guy, after all, and the prison guy also had a flower...).

Good and evil, in any case, has always been mixed, up to R1. This is nothing unique for TLJ.

War is no solution. I so agree, and before I finish "agree" we know that this is not a black and white matter. I hope (and really, nothing is proving it to me, so far) that mankind reaches this conclusion (and consequently applies for membership in the Romulan Star Empire), but as for SW, is it really that case? They start to run, and lose almost all their transports and the other ships. Of course, they would have lost if they decided to fight, as well. But they fought the Death Stars, Starkiller Base, at Maz' place, at Scarif, the violent sacrifice of the Raddus saved Finn from execution...Holdo didnt know that, she didnt rescue Finn out of love). Just because they escaped due to Lukes sacrifice, and because they had simply nothing meaningful left with which to fight, doesnt mean at all that in SW terms, the war is not the solution sentence is in any way meaningful or true. Again, I wish we can make all wanna be aggressors everyhwere understand that, as a World, we lose with every conflict.

I could go on, talk about Leias thrusters (I so hope that Luke trained her and that feat is not due to innate force powers), the going to light speed question shredding, but what I want to convey is that you should not, just becaue you like the movie, come down to "if you dont understand, I cant really help you". Some people, I for sure, are so disappointed because we are not taken seriously in our wanting to have a semblance of context and believability. Its SciFi, sure, and we can talk about all the meta stuff anytime, but that is not the primary concern, here. There is simply no basis for that. Yes, it might be that its on purpose that with the trologies they forgo that, consciouly, wanting it to be a fairy tale, a parable, whatever, in the first place, wanting to immediately get people to think about the things you write RIGHT in the cinema. But honestly, how likely is that...

My personal opinion is that neither is the movie tailored to what I think it should be (as well), nor is the movie apt for many of your readings. But it could also be that I dont see most of your points because we start from opposite directions.

In the end, its near impossible anyway to make a movie that finds a 100% approval rating, especially with that backstory. Probably for the better, dont you think?

Again, it was good to read your essay.

2 hours ago, Truthiness said:

This was my take:

Resistance B/SF-17 Bomber

Hull: 8

Speed: 2

Anti-Squadron: 2 blue

Battery: 1 black, 2 blue

Bomber, Heavy, Counter 1

Points: 19

Given how long they are (29m or so) I would presume they'd be 1 to a base, like everything from Rogues & Villains was?

Just now, Ironlord said:

Given how long they are (29m or so) I would presume they'd be 1 to a base, like everything from Rogues & Villains was?

That's my thought as well.

I think there might be an element of diminishing returns on bombs as they scale up. The enormous bombs on the Bunker Buster Corvette (look like 1/10 the length of the 316m corvette, so over 30m long) are only 100 megatons.

My guess is that if you had the same total volume of those itty-bitty but very hard-hitting proton bombs, the total yield would probably be more.

Good points both for and against the film.

I don't care what anyone says, I loved it. Enough said.

I’ll just leave this here...

http://www.darkhorizons.com/hamill-says-hes-not-my-luke-skywalker/

46 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

I’ll just leave this here...

http://www.darkhorizons.com/hamill-says-hes-not-my-luke-skywalker/

So I have been thinking about our conversation and about Hamill. He says,

Quote

“I said to Rian, ‘Jedi’s don’t give up.’ I mean, even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup. But if he made a mistake, he would try and right that wrong. So, right there we had a fundamental difference, but it’s not my story anymore. It’s somebody else’s story – and Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective.

…That’s the crux of my problem. Luke would never say that. I’m sorry. Well, in this version, see I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars, so I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker. He’s not my Luke Skywalker, but I had to do what Rian wanted me to do because it serves the story well.

But listen, I still haven’t accepted it completely. But it’s only a movie. I hope people like it. I hope they don’t get upset, and I came to really believe that Rian was the exact man that they need for this job.”

He is wrong. The overwhelming theme of Star Wars is that Jedi do give up and they need new people to instill hope in them.

Old Ben Kenobi? Yoda? Dare I say, Vader?

Luke learned to run from these imperfect Masters. What was Yoda telling Luke if not that he [Yoda] was wrong sometimes too and that Luke should grow past that. Remember, Yoda too refused to face Vader and hid on Dagobah.

Regarding Resistance resources.. the Resistance did have more resources. that was what General Leia Organa meant when she was talking about "allies in the outer rim".. all the other Resistance cells and the various governments/organizations/movements that were sympathetic to her cause. She was trying to gather together all the different cells, call up those who promised to help her. the way Bail Organa and Mon Mothma did to unify the scattered resistance against the Galactic Empire into the Rebel Alliance.

the line about "we fought to the last" when she finds out there is no response explains where all of those went. they were destroyed by the First Order military juggernaut as it blitzkreig'd across the galaxy. The cells wiped out or forced like hers to go deep cover to avoid losing everything. the resistance aligned groups conquered or surrendering rather than fighting an overwhelming force.

i'll admit the film did not do the greatest job making this obvious. a flaw in the "show don't tell" approach of modern filmmaking. they made it too subtle. but if you read the other media works (the comics, the games, the novels, the visual dictionary, etc) you'll be familiar enough with the resistance to know that there were other cells. a lot of other cells. and groups that Leia thought she could count on to fight with her. also that the First Order had a freaking huge military, on par with what Empire had in its earlier years, only far more advanced.

but to be fair, in the original trilogy they never told us any of this sort of stuff either. in A New Hope, the film seems to treat the yavin base (with its two dozen or so fighters) and the Tantive IV as the only rebels in the galaxy. Empire Strikes back also failed to explain that there was more to the Rebellion than just the couple dozen fighters and dozen or so freighters that were at Hoth. it wasn't until Return of the Jedi that we saw a larger multi-cell force.. and even then, they never actually said that it was comprised of multiple cells. that all had to be filled in by comics and novels and games, the EU.. and then again in the new Canon (which handled it much more like an actual rebellion)

absolutely agree, Mithril. The OT also does not provide context, I was painfully aware of that when writing my post. But I am much more lenient on them because, really, not because of nostalgia, but because there was nothing before that, nothing to draw from, no expectations (although I am sure some people back then also wondered). Still, you could see IV and V as the story of the rebel HQ. The Empire thought "kill the leadership, kill the whole thing". With all omissions, there was some logic and continuity within those two movies. Nowadays, with all the media formats in their control, with the galactic magnitude they make it themselves (killing the capital planet, asking for outer-rim help), nothing.

As for the freaking huge FO military, I read the books, but they stop at some point, and I really look for a valid explanation as to where the funds come from. Also, did they clone Lemelisk / Erso or what to come up with the Starkiller schematics.

Ah, back then, I took it as a great space adventure, I. ever saw anything like it, before, the guys were all larger than life. Now, so many expectations

15 hours ago, NebulonB said:

I was reading your essay, impressive and certainly forcefully arguing your points. But 90%, I couldnt disagree more. Please take my word that my criticism is not of you.

What you might think about a bit is (and here I might make an unjustified projection from me to a significant majority of the people who dont like the movie) the following: Almost everything in this movie (maybe with the exception of the Luke part) is cheap. Simply cheap. If Finn is miraculously swayed by the (I assume) semi-slave children, so be it, but all you need is showing them a ring and you receive tacit approval to take the mounts, while the whole galaxy sends nothing when Leia Organa sends a request to help? Not to mention that the whole ring showing itself is again super cheesy, but back to the point of cheap, am I to swallow that the Rebels at Scarif had more material than THE WHOLE resitance and the WHOLE (sry caps) New Republic together managed? All because the already super cheesy concept of leeching suns and shooting planets killed the capital planet and I am made to believe that 100% of the forces, of the leadership and everything else has perished? Even with giving them the benefit of the doubt that Mon Mothma might have disliked military enough to not have a whole lot of fleet, in which galaxy will you not have your forces split? Or has the FO wiped out everything else also from the time of the Starkiller hit to the time of episode 8? Maybe a lot happened and nobody cared or wanted to inform the audience on those trifle matters, I dont know, but that leads me back to cheap. Again, maybe I am in the super minority that asks too much from a SW movie, but if all the things you mention come from a well defined, well planned thought process, then where is the stuff that makes the whole context believable. There are many Disney movies to chose from where thee is no need for context...especially insulting when its true that they are so aware of their 7 previous movies.

Lets for a second forget what Snoke and Kylo want and do (thx for nothing regarding Snokes background...but again, maybe I am the only one interested in those kind of things), its just inexcusably cheap to picture the FO in the parody of a parody style of the first 20 minutes. Its simply not believable that any like "successful" organization would create characters like that on the top. And if Disney on purpose made a caricature of the FO, then again, super cheap, and what is that purpose? To make the audience *really* dislike them, on every level? Or make it easier for 7 year olds to stomach the movie when the baddies are clownesk in the worst sense? I dont know, really.

Same cheap move with Snoke. Up to the last second they let him brag and be super arrogant and so full of himself...I bet you everything only to make it *so more surprising* to the unexpected and uninitiated audience that Kylo kills him (which 100% of us knew would happen, like with Han, like with Rey not accepting, like with Kylo taking over). It would really help to know anything about Snoke to stomach that. Of course it happened before, with Vader turning on Palpatine, but the connection between Vader and Luke was more credible than Kylos wish to field the void that, apparently, came into existence very suddendly. Not long ago he tried everything to please Snoke, and Snoke gave him the satisfaction to recognize that...faith renewed, or something like that. Sure, maybe in the backs of their heads things changed and there really was a break and a closure, but again, we as audience have not been made privy to that. We can guess, and with that guess defend what we like or attack what we dont like. What we are given is cheap dialogue, thats all.

Rey and her parentage? A minute ago the FO didnt even know Rey, next thing we know they tell her who her parents where. Did they see it in her mind? She didnt know, apparently, but ok, Force stuff. They sent agents to Jakku in the meantime? Possible, but I would think Rey would have tried to get info from the same people the FO went to to investigate. And with her Force powers, knowingly or not, she could have had success. Again, we are asked to simply lean back, not question those anything.

I also dont see wall breaking, I see references that tie in the movies, especially for older fans. The Falcon lives, there is no breakage with history in saying they hate this ship. The FO didnt need to interact with this ship, because Kylo and Snoke, and by extension the leadership, know very well who flies that junk and whats their significance. This is personal.

This is not going to end as you think? For me, Luke thinks that Rey thinks she can persuade Kylo. He clearly disagrees. He clearly is and always was right, as there is an Episode 9. They wont give up Kylo, because, as you say, he is the only interesting one (it cost me a little bit to write that, because next to the caricature they made of Phasma and Hux, and the killing of Snoke, he is the only one and the bar is not high). I thought about your giving this sentence more meaning than the issue at hand. I am not sure what really has ben put on its head. I fully expected Rose sacrifice, but admittedly I thought she would fly into this thing instead of Finn, Rey did not turn, Kylo did not turn, Luke did not leave the island (and noboy ever thought Luke would not in the end intervene somehow) and died there, as he claimed, Rey never said her parents are extradorinary, so her expectations couldnt be turned on their head (or you mean ours? I was interested in this question and Snokes identity, but I had no expectations), Poe expected purely to kill a ship as they had the chance to kill one, and kill it they did (nowhere we have been told that Poe sees anything strategic in it), Holdo did exactly as most captains of every doomed ship in every movie do and stays behind...preferably with a final heroic stunt, and so on.

The fight for the thing you love stuff, I dont know. Again, this strikes me as super cheesy, supr one-dimensional, the go-to sentence. For sure Han didnt shoot at Luke in the Death Star trench, just to keep him fromgetting shot by Vader. By all interpretations, the trench run was a suicide mission to stop the machine from doing greater harm. Finn thought he could save the resistance base, the trench pilots thought they could save their base. Its a bit late to suddendly not fight fire with fire within, I stress the within, SW and the particular situation. But ok, Rose fell in love with Finn in the few hours they had together (cant remember from the movie, the fuel was at which level when they left for the casino?). I could call that super cheesy, or super convenient, but who I am to argue with love.

Argue I can with the whole casino business, too. Lets put aside the convenience of having this planet so close (heck, even lightspeed travel can take a day, but ok, the only guy slicery enough is on that planet, in that casino...Resistance is not lacking field intel, apparently, but, hey Maz, nice to make it into the movie, hope your mysterious fight ends well...so cheesy), they fly there, are in a hurry, understandbly, and are no professionals that might know this parking issue could be detrimental, find the guy but dont even talk to him because hey, there is another one. Totally and 100% superfluous, what can the new guy do that the other cant? Oh, they need someone in the prison cell to free Finn, convenient, lets make him the second best slicer in the world, as well. This casino is known to draw them. (having said that, maybe I truly misunderstood something and the guy with the flower was the wrong guy, after all, and the prison guy also had a flower...).

Good and evil, in any case, has always been mixed, up to R1. This is nothing unique for TLJ.

War is no solution. I so agree, and before I finish "agree" we know that this is not a black and white matter. I hope (and really, nothing is proving it to me, so far) that mankind reaches this conclusion (and consequently applies for membership in the Romulan Star Empire), but as for SW, is it really that case? They start to run, and lose almost all their transports and the other ships. Of course, they would have lost if they decided to fight, as well. But they fought the Death Stars, Starkiller Base, at Maz' place, at Scarif, the violent sacrifice of the Raddus saved Finn from execution...Holdo didnt know that, she didnt rescue Finn out of love). Just because they escaped due to Lukes sacrifice, and because they had simply nothing meaningful left with which to fight, doesnt mean at all that in SW terms, the war is not the solution sentence is in any way meaningful or true. Again, I wish we can make all wanna be aggressors everyhwere understand that, as a World, we lose with every conflict.

I could go on, talk about Leias thrusters (I so hope that Luke trained her and that feat is not due to innate force powers), the going to light speed question shredding, but what I want to convey is that you should not, just becaue you like the movie, come down to "if you dont understand, I cant really help you". Some people, I for sure, are so disappointed because we are not taken seriously in our wanting to have a semblance of context and believability. Its SciFi, sure, and we can talk about all the meta stuff anytime, but that is not the primary concern, here. There is simply no basis for that. Yes, it might be that its on purpose that with the trologies they forgo that, consciouly, wanting it to be a fairy tale, a parable, whatever, in the first place, wanting to immediately get people to think about the things you write RIGHT in the cinema. But honestly, how likely is that...

My personal opinion is that neither is the movie tailored to what I think it should be (as well), nor is the movie apt for many of your readings. But it could also be that I dont see most of your points because we start from opposite directions.

In the end, its near impossible anyway to make a movie that finds a 100% approval rating, especially with that backstory. Probably for the better, dont you think?

Again, it was good to read your essay.

Thanks for the detailled response. I think a lot comes down to what exactly you expect of the movie. But please keep in mind that Star Wars NEVER made any sense where the numbers are concerned. Space flight always took just as long as the story needed it. The numbers were ludicrous all the time (in "Attack of the Clones", they talk of, what, 1,5 million clone troopers on Geonosis? Like, that's a THIRD of what the Wehrmacht attacked the Soviet Union with in 1941, and we're talking galaxy-spanning conflict here). Stuff wasn't explained (neither in prequels nor OT). But 30 years of Expanded Universe filled a lot of gaps. I'm sure in the coming years, we will get a lot of gap-filling for this movie as well. But, and this is crucial for our different understanding, I don't expect a Star Wars movie to make any kind of sense in these terms. It needs to make sense in leitmotifs and themes and character arcs.

Besides, I think most of the new characters are fantastic, Kylo Ren is just so good he rises above the high bar the others set.

17 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

That's a very smart and perceptive analysis. Well done! There really is a lot to like in the film, and you've done a good job of putting much of it in perspective.

Thanks!

I'd like to echo Nebulon about how the film felt cheap. They broke a lot of established rules, didn't bother with ANY physics, didn't bother with the dark side, turned a man who faced down the second most vile and evil man in the galaxy in front of the most evil man of the galaxy and turned him back from The Dark to The Light into a man who would murder his own nephew in his sleep.

There is nothing even vaguely okay enough in this movie let alone full on great enough to forgive that fundamental failure to understand this story. This director shouldn't be allowed to organize a children's storytime at the local library.

26 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I'd like to echo Nebulon about how the film felt cheap. They broke a lot of established rules, didn't bother with ANY physics, didn't bother with the dark side, turned a man who faced down the second most vile and evil man in the galaxy in front of the most evil man of the galaxy and turned him back from The Dark to The Light into a man who would murder his own nephew in his sleep.

There is nothing even vaguely okay enough in this movie let alone full on great enough to forgive that fundamental failure to understand this story. This director shouldn't be allowed to organize a children's storytime at the local library.

I feel like there wasn't enough oversight in the movie. At the least, hire me to point out cringey moments. I think there's a decent movie in the Last Jedi, but I think there were a few missteps that put a lot of fans off from it.

I still wonder if this is really a "kids" movie. I saw the Snoke kill scene and the red guy getting lightsabered and was thinking, "well, it'll be a while before my son sees this movie."

You've misunderstood the story then. Luke doesn't want to murder his own nephew in his sleep. He thinks about stopping another Vader before that person became Vader, about all the darkness that is coming from this person and all the pain that Vader caused and how it could be prevented now if he acted, but he realises that this means killing his own nephew. He almost immediately regrets it. His love of his nephew is precisely what stops him. The moment is far more fleeting than him raging over his father and beating him down into submission. The tragedy is that it did not go unnoticed.

1 hour ago, redxavier said:

You've misunderstood the story then. Luke doesn't want to murder his own nephew in his sleep. He thinks about stopping another Vader before that person became Vader, about all the darkness that is coming from this person and all the pain that Vader caused and how it could be prevented now if he acted, but he realises that this means killing his own nephew. He almost immediately regrets it. His love of his nephew is precisely what stops him. The moment is far more fleeting than him raging over his father and beating him down into submission. The tragedy is that it did not go unnoticed.

Agreed. The movie is about how our legends and heroes are actually just people. And to put on them the burden of perfection is unfair both to them and to ourselves.

The Last Jedi reminds us that the force (or, by extension, heroism) doesn't belong to an elite bloodline. It belongs to all of us: the nobodies who want to make things better.

2 hours ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

I still wonder if this is really a "kids" movie. I saw the Snoke kill scene and the red guy getting lightsabered and was thinking, "well, it'll be a while before my son sees this movie."

I kind of doubt most star wars would be considered kids movies. Think about all the times Stormtroopers get killed, all the rebles killed, limbs being cut off, ect. I mean star wars is inherently violent. I mean it has friggin war in the title. They never really get graphic, just more pew pew your dead kind of thing. None the less, it's still quite violent.

Just now, Noosh said:

I kind of doubt most star wars would be considered kids movies. Think about all the times Stormtroopers get killed, all the rebles killed, limbs being cut off, ect. I mean star wars is inherently violent. I mean it has friggin war in the title. They never really get graphic, just more pew pew your dead kind of thing. None the less, it's still quite violent.

It's the argument I hear a lot from people (including my wife) that these are kids movies and shouldn't be taken seriously. Either they are kids movies and we need to reconsider what we're putting in the films or they are not kids movies (PG-13 didn't come around til much later). I prefer they are not kids movies and that I can complain about the fact that Star Wars: The Search for a Gas Station is a blah movie.

Call me crazy, but I long for the days when Luke was just a nobody from a planet furthest from the bright centre of the universe as you could get. Luke was just a farmer who became a hero, who then discovered that the person he wanted to avenge and the person he wanted to kill were the same person. But what made him special wasn't that he was Vader's son, it was that he was a hero at heart. He was going to bring his father back because he wanted his father back, and that act would also constitute a rejection of the Dark Side and being like our parents. I hated this Chosen One stuff, the prophecy and balance etc. It turned the story from being about Luke to about this other guy that wasn't even the focus.

2 hours ago, redxavier said:

You've misunderstood the story then. Luke doesn't want to murder his own nephew in his sleep. He thinks about stopping another Vader before that person became Vader, about all the darkness that is coming from this person and all the pain that Vader caused and how it could be prevented now if he acted, but he realises that this means killing his own nephew. He almost immediately regrets it. His love of his nephew is precisely what stops him. The moment is far more fleeting than him raging over his father and beating him down into submission. The tragedy is that it did not go unnoticed.

Good point!

16 minutes ago, redxavier said:

Call me crazy, but I long for the days when Luke was just a nobody from a planet furthest from the bright centre of the universe as you could get. Luke was just a farmer who became a hero, who then discovered that the person he wanted to avenge and the person he wanted to kill were the same person. But what made him special wasn't that he was Vader's son, it was that he was a hero at heart. He was going to bring his father back because he wanted his father back, and that act would also constitute a rejection of the Dark Side and being like our parents. I hated this Chosen One stuff, the prophecy and balance etc. It turned the story from being about Luke to about this other guy that wasn't even the focus.

This practically describes Rey...

4 minutes ago, Stefan said:

This practically describes Rey...

So Snoke IS her daddy...

In theory I like what was attempted, at least in main story line. Execution was piss-poor in most places.

Bitter Luke busting out one-liners, prequel-esque mission to casino that remind me of a half-*** DM's circular RPG adventure, steely eyed purple haired admiral who's whole mission is to teach subordinates to respect authority instead of just informing the troops about the mission, mary poppins leia, ForceTime, your-momma jokes, all powerful Snoke dressed like a figure skater toying with one of the most powerful force users in the universe but forgets about the lightsaber next to him, Kylo not able to figure how what the **** he wants. General Ginger auditioning for Monty Python... ugh.

Not a single "You will be.... You. Will. Be." moment in the whole thing.

Like his characters, Rian will also learn from these failures. I'm hopeful that without being handed a ****-covered baton from JJ his dedicated prequel will be much better.

9 hours ago, redxavier said:

You've misunderstood the story then. Luke doesn't want to murder his own nephew in his sleep. He thinks about stopping another Vader before that person became Vader, about all the darkness that is coming from this person and all the pain that Vader caused and how it could be prevented now if he acted, but he realises that this means killing his own nephew. He almost immediately regrets it. His love of his nephew is precisely what stops him. The moment is far more fleeting than him raging over his father and beating him down into submission. The tragedy is that it did not go unnoticed.

I completely understood the story. I think it is a utter failure to understand Luke Skywalker on the part of the creators of this cinematic travesty. I believe in the legend of Luke Skywalker. And the legend of Luke Skywalker doesn't give up on his nephew the same way he doesn't give up on his father.

I don't go to a Star Wars movies to see the human Luke Skywalker. I go to see the LEGEND. And the LEGEND doesn't for a second consider murdering his nephew in his sleep.

And if we go there the legend is going to just sit on the sidelines without even the decency to become a raging alcoholic while that boy destroys planets, kills his best friend, and hounds his sister into a cave to be slaughtered like vermin?

****smh****

21 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I completely understood the story. I think it is a utter failure to understand Luke Skywalker on the part of the creators of this cinematic travesty. I believe in the legend of Luke Skywalker. And the legend of Luke Skywalker doesn't give up on his nephew the same way he doesn't give up on his father.

I don't go to a Star Wars movies to see the human Luke Skywalker. I go to see the LEGEND. And the LEGEND doesn't for a second consider murdering his nephew in his sleep.

And if we go there the legend is going to just sit on the sidelines without even the decency to become a raging alcoholic while that boy destroys planets, kills his best friend, and hounds his sister into a cave to be slaughtered like vermin?

****smh****

If you think that Luke was a legend, meaning capable of anything, then you watched 4-6 wrong. He was a scared young man who had enough love for his father to overcome his own ineptitude to defeat evil. What happens when it isn't his father? What happens when he is on the other side of training? That is what this movie explores.

I say this again...Yoda (a legend) fled and his and never came out to save the universe. Obiwan (a legend) hid and only came out because he lucked into finding Luke. There are no perfect legends in Star Wars. Unless you mean the false things people say about those who are foisted into that position by the stories told about them. That is what this movie is about.

http://www.steelstrategy.com/2017/12/truthiness-vs-logic-poe-damerons.html?m=1

Saw it last night - marginally better than the prequels

Some good scenes (the bombers esp, the royal guard actually showing why they're royal guard - although they looked tacky).

Whole film is dripping with Disney (cuddly creatures, over-wrought heartfelt moments), some seriously bad acting (can see why Mark Hamil didn't speak in TFA...), Forced comedy moments alá the prequels, **** script and a clunky feel to the whole film, going from set piece to set pieces with little character development (well, Snoke did well didn't he?) And yeah, the Mary Poppins moment. WTF.

Rogue One all the way. Right balance of humour, action, acting + story. Not perfect, but jeeze this new film....