24 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

An idea for consideration in wave 7, should Sloane players be looking for a squadron-based method for just chiseling through the Gallant Haven bunker:

Sloane with a modest bid to go first against most 2+3 Rebel fleets. Put Governor Pryce on a Flight Controllers Quasar (Boosted Comms mandatory, Expanded Hangars optional). Pryce calls round 2 (unless Rebel fleet starts very slow, then maybe round 3) and despite the 2+3 out-activating you, you get the final shot in round 2, which is a squadron dial+token for 5/6 fighter squadrons, preferably including at least a source of Intel and Mauler Mithel and whatever other face-beaters you want to add past that. Quasar activates first in the subsequent turn and bosses around 4/5 squadrons all over again, preferably getting in another Mauler hop as well. You're not going to completely wipe the Rebel squadrons hiding near Gallant Haven, but you're going to be taking out a couple and that may be sufficient for the Sloane engine to keep rolling. Title the Quasar to taste.

It has utility against most fleets (getting in that bottom of 2 super squadron dogpile after enemy squadrons can't be commanded any more, or jumping a ship that got into range and can't wait out the Quasar) and might just be enough to brute force through Gallant Haven's damage reduction to tip the squad minigame in your favor if your fleet lacks a means to destroy the Assault Frigate (which would be my preference when possible).

If you're absolutely desperate for guaranteed damage, you can also combine with Ruthless Strategists on a Quasar-II, but I'm not sure I'd go that far.

@Brikhause and I were just talking about this this afternoon. As the OG Acehole, he's quaking in his boots at the prospect of facing this. We disagree on the severity of the threat (I don't think it's Kobayashi Maru for a skilled Aceholes player), but it's definitely a substantial threat.

The problem: I don't know what sort of squadron build does have a chance against such a devastating alpha strike. I think Rogues may have a role, as they can get a full activation between Sloane's initial and follow-up alpha. Hiding your fighters behind solider ships that can weather a direct alpha from the QF is an option, but also means you really have to have ships that can present a direct threat to at least the QF. Slicers would be an answer, if not for Pursuant and Thrawn. I do think a full-up JF/GH/Biggs/Jan ball with all of those elements can still weather it, and then turn around and wipe the ball with Ten... but then you're very heavily invested in defending against it, to the detriment of the overall offensive power of the Acehole against other lists.

TL;DR: I don't think the ladies of the Empire are going to bring about the end of the Aceholes, but I do think they're going to help reel it in a bit for the rest of us.

15 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

TL;DR: I don't think the ladies of the Empire are going to bring about the end of the Aceholes, but I do think they're going to help reel it in a bit for the rest of us.

Yeah, I'd need to see it in practice to really get some idea as to how effective it would be at knocking out enough infrastructure to really make a difference.

I think Intel is really the key there - it allows you to Mauler Mithel hop-and-pop twice back-to-back AND it allows for your other squadrons (sorry Mauler, you'll be missed) to get in their second attacks and then move away again, hopefully out of easy reprisal range of surviving Rebel squadrons. With that distance factored in, you at least force the Rebel squads to either chase after you (out of Gallant Haven range or requiring GH to chase you somewhere bad) or they have to hide by GH and eat a third attack run in the following turn. Even with GH, that's not a great proposition.

My thoughts on this matter really center around the hope of simply reducing its desire to be run.

Mostly because the one big time I remember facing it, my opponent who was using it tilted out pretty badly turn 2 due to some sub-par rolling (including ruler throwing and cries of “why do I play this ****ing game.”) ...

mostly because the dice gods listened to them and they turned it around to a 600-50 victory after my dice turned to crap and theirs to gold.

The magic combination of “that opponent” with “that list “ is one I want to see disperse... even if I’m not the catalyst or reason, I’d just be happy to see a desire for variety.

But, personal musings, anyway.

Im not good enough of a player to actually meaningfully warp even a local Meta.

3 hours ago, Norsehound said:

And Norra is going to make those shields not matter very quickly.

Against a Raider, Norra contributes one bonus damage if there is a crit before the shields are gone.

Meh.

You seem to have a very high opinion of her. Do you constantly redirect or something? I find her to be too expensive personally.

8 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Against a Raider, Norra contributes one bonus damage if there is a crit before the shields are gone.

Meh.

You seem to have a very high opinion of her. Do you constantly redirect or something? I find her to be too expensive personally.

This....

I find if you simply wait to redirect until after the defending hull zone has no remaining shields, she adds one to maybe two damage at best

1 hour ago, MandalorianMoose said:

This....

I find if you simply wait to redirect until after the defending hull zone has no remaining shields, she adds one to maybe two damage at best

But are you really going to let that zone drop to 0 shields when your opponent has an Xi7 battleship just ready and waiting to pound that zone?

1 minute ago, Parkdaddy said:

But are you really going to let that zone drop to 0 shields when your opponent has an Xi7 battleship just ready and waiting to pound that zone?

Yes, because that zone is going to be at 0 after the squad attacks anyway, why give them all my side shields too?

27 minutes ago, Parkdaddy said:

But are you really going to let that zone drop to 0 shields when your opponent has an Xi7 battleship just ready and waiting to pound that zone?

Is there actually an aceholes build that runs XI7 battleships with Norra? Nothing in 2+3 is that scary for ship to ship.

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Is there actually an aceholes build that runs XI7 battleships with Norra? Nothing in 2+3 is that scary for ship to ship.

No, but I was talking more about Nora in general. Nora +2 bombers followed up by a strong Xi7 shot is an ideal way to use her, not limited to 2+3 builds.

Should have clarified.

5 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

@Brikhause and I were just talking about this this afternoon. As the OG Acehole, he's quaking in his boots at the prospect of facing this. We disagree on the severity of the threat (I don't think it's Kobayashi Maru for a skilled Aceholes player), but it's definitely a substantial threat.

The old @Brikhause misdirection. He says he is quaking but really it just shows him what turn your going to alpha his fleet thus giving him the info he needs.

49 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

The old @Brikhause misdirection. He says he is quaking but really it just shows him what turn your going to alpha his fleet thus giving him the info he needs.

I don’t even know the guy, but this echoed my thoughts as well.

Most of the players running Aceholes know how to adapt. This is just more of the same, and a low Imperial ship count will just make setting up initially to avoid the round in question, especially if the Imperial player goes first, that much easier.

But hey, it’s all just theory craft. Which is fun, right? Usually worthless, but fun.

1 hour ago, ripper998 said:

The old @Brikhause misdirection. He says he is quaking but really it just shows him what turn your going to alpha his fleet thus giving him the info he needs.

Glad you think so devious of me!!

Yes I suppose it is good info to know, but when your opponent can strike you from distance 5 and has tools like Relay and boosted comms I am not sure there is much you can do to avoid it if your opponents is a skilled enough player and deploys right with a good understanding of timing and distance.

Add in Saber squadron, Jendon, and Mauler all going consecutively, and even with GH that is going to wreck things.

3 hours ago, Parkdaddy said:

No, but I was talking more about Nora in general. Nora +2 bombers followed up by a strong Xi7 shot is an ideal way to use her, not limited to 2+3 builds.

Should have clarified.

Yup. But nobody uses Norra that way. She is much more efficient in a small bomber wing than an aceholes list.

Eh, I've been last-first alphaed a lot. Squadrons, ships, ships shooting at squadrons, squadrons shooting at ships. It really hasn't mattered or even made the games particularly close. This might be different, but I'm not sold.

3 hours ago, Parkdaddy said:

No, but I was talking more about Nora in general. Nora +2 bombers followed up by a strong Xi7 shot is an ideal way to use her, not limited to 2+3 builds.

Should have clarified.

Yup. But nobody uses Norra that way. She is much more efficient in a small bomber wing than an aceholes list.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

Yup. But nobody uses Norra that way. She is much more efficient in a small bomber wing than an aceholes list.

I'm probably biased because I combo her with Keyan who thoroughly punishes ships with the poor judgement to not have shields, but she's usually at least a +3-+5 damage over the course of a game and very favorably statted for her points regardless.

10 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Yup. But nobody uses Norra that way. She is much more efficient in a small bomber wing than an aceholes list.

I tried using Norris and the Y-babes to make a shield hole for XI7 SatoVation to exploit.

mixed success without rerolls on the shot.

19 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I tried using Norris and the Y-babes to make a shield hole for XI7 SatoVation to exploit.

mixed success without rerolls on the shot.

After I wrote that my thoughts were SatoLiberty.

10 hours ago, Snipafist said:

An idea for consideration in wave 7, should Sloane players be looking for a squadron-based method for just chiseling through the Gallant Haven bunker:

Sloane with a modest bid to go first against most 2+3 Rebel fleets. Put Governor Pryce on a Flight Controllers Quasar (Boosted Comms mandatory, Expanded Hangars optional). Pryce calls round 2 (unless Rebel fleet starts very slow, then maybe round 3) and despite the 2+3 out-activating you, you get the final shot in round 2, which is a squadron dial+token for 5/6 fighter squadrons, preferably including at least a source of Intel and Mauler Mithel and whatever other face-beaters you want to add past that. Quasar activates first in the subsequent turn and bosses around 4/5 squadrons all over again, preferably getting in another Mauler hop as well. You're not going to completely wipe the Rebel squadrons hiding near Gallant Haven, but you're going to be taking out a couple and that may be sufficient for the Sloane engine to keep rolling. Title the Quasar to taste.

It has utility against most fleets (getting in that bottom of 2 super squadron dogpile after enemy squadrons can't be commanded any more, or jumping a ship that got into range and can't wait out the Quasar) and might just be enough to brute force through Gallant Haven's damage reduction to tip the squad minigame in your favor if your fleet lacks a means to destroy the Assault Frigate (which would be my preference when possible).

If you're absolutely desperate for guaranteed damage, you can also combine with Ruthless Strategists on a Quasar-II, but I'm not sure I'd go that far.

Is it me, or could you just do this on a flight controllers ISD, then get the last/first fighter strike and a last/first shot on GH?

1 minute ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Is it me, or could you just do this on a flight controllers ISD, then get the last/first fighter strike and a last/first shot on GH?

You could, but then you're putting FC on an ISD like a chump.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

You could, but then you're putting FC on an ISD like a chump.

I’ve found it to be more valuable than BTs or even GTs in some circumstances anyway. Especially on an ISD1 (and, as an occasionally nice added bonus with a 2, you’re allowed to bring AG.) Not saying it’s normal, but Sloane lists like GK’s run FCs already.

I can say with some confidence that @Ardaedhel isn’t afraid to call anyone specific a chump.

10 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I’ve found it to be more valuable than BTs or even GTs in some circumstances anyway. Especially on an ISD1 (and, as an occasionally nice added bonus with a 2, you’re allowed to bring AG.) Not saying it’s normal, but Sloane lists like GK’s run FCs already.

And that's a big part of why I don't buy GK's build. With so few ships and so little direct threat from the squadrons, you need that second shot from the ISD against many builds.

So, yep, @Green Knight is a chump.

2 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

And that's a big part of why I don't buy GK's build. With so few ships and so little direct threat from the squadrons, you need that second shot from the ISD against many builds.

So, yep, @Green Knight is a chump.

Getting ninja'ed by Dras:

Looks like the chump-er.... Has become the chump-ee?

6 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

And that's a big part of why I don't buy GK's build. With so few ships and so little direct threat from the squadrons, you need that second shot from the ISD against many builds.

So, yep, @Green Knight is a chump.

When it comes to this game, I fleet build with the principle that each and every “established” upgrade suite should be challenged as the meta/tools available change. Even ISD weapon teams. How else did anyone find out what worked originally? Trial and error. Why stop erring now? I never knew BTs worked on an ISD2 until I tried them, but in the right fleet they absolutely do.