2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

That's what my buddy and I were talking on the way back. The issue of course, is finding a Konstantine list that isn't wet hot garbage

The old problem going back to his release is that you really want medium sized ships so that you don't suffer on the cost of large, and that we really needed a speed-3 medium ship. Enter the Quasar.

I think that leaves you with an ET Dicter, Quasar, flotillas and squads.

4 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

I think that leaves you with an ET Dicter, Quasar, flotillas and squads.

....how do you kill anything (spoken as a Rebel only)? Metric ton of TIE bombers?

Just a tactic thought. Jan (and any Intel Ball) relies on some precision formation flying.

Park one of your ships on the ball and you're gonna break their flow. You'll pull ships out of her protective bubble.

Remember, they have to touch the ship base and cannot be placed under the dials

Just now, geek19 said:

....how do you kill anything (spoken as a Rebel only)? Metric ton of TIE bombers?

I was just running up an example in Armada WarLords, and it would have to be a full 130+ point squadron list. This isn't my forte. It does look fun to play casually, but I don't think I'd get it to work on a major competitive level.

Just now, Vergilius said:

I was just running up an example in Armada WarLords, and it would have to be a full 130+ point squadron list. This isn't my forte. It does look fun to play casually, but I don't think I'd get it to work on a major competitive level.

Not enough Madine/Liberties, haha?

I’m going to try generalizing this as far as possible. In my understanding, there are three ways to deal with a problem in Armada: Kill it, go around it and kill something else, or avoid/ignore it and farm objective points. The real, focused threat of aceholes is a squadron group. Everything else goes towards protecting/buffing that group. It seems like when facing the squadrons head on in GH’s bubble with squad to squad attacks, even the strongest attacks (6 blue Sloane Ace alpha?), will lead to failure (-1ed and braced and moved via Biggs, pretty reliably.) Flak doesn’t seem any better. So if you want to deal with the Squadrons, you must either engage/flak them out of formation, use unblockable damage methods, or occupy them with substantial squad hull values somehow, despite Intel. Does that sound about right, or have I generalized too much?

1 hour ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

The answer is clear...Y-wings... *mic drop*

(Does vampire Hiss)

“No the sun!!! It burns!”

The ships seem more complicated. If you want to engage the ships, you must tank what the squadrons can throw, provide many targets at once (like geek19’s way cool raider suggestion) evade the damage through positioning somehow (e.g. target exposed flotillas) keep the squadrons engaged/ineffectual despite Intel (slicer tools? jamming field+screen?), force the ships/squadrons out of position (phylons, baiting, Konstantine), or accept your doomed ship and trade favorably. *Whew* Did I miss anything obvious yet? Anyone sick of this?

3 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The ships seem more complicated. If you want to engage the ships, you must tank what the squadrons can throw, provide many targets at once (like geek19’s way cool raider suggestion) evade the damage through positioning somehow (e.g. target exposed flotillas) keep the squadrons engaged/ineffectual despite Intel (slicer tools? jamming field+screen?), force the ships/squadrons out of position (phylons, baiting, Konstantine), or accept your doomed ship and trade favorably. *Whew* Did I miss anything obvious yet? Anyone sick of this?

I wish I could claim the Raider idea was mine, but if you like Raiders, havvvvvvvvvvvvvvve you met @Snipafist?

There is a tiny part of me that wishes people would stop getting good with them, as it makes my squadron murdering job harder, haha.

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

I feel like we're not discussing THIS enough. There isn't really a magic bullet yet that we can all look at and go "OH, QUAD LASER TURRETS! There you were, hiding behind the milk and Konstantine in the fridge, no wonder I forgot about you! Time to insert you into my list and win all the games herp derp derp bam. Sukk it, Rieekan Aces! You just got taken to Counter-1 town!"

But that seems to be a good amount of the discussion here (and I'm NOT trying to start a fight here with anyone), what REGULAR tactics do we need to beat this good combo list? What if it is some sort of off-the-wall tactic that solves it? What if the answer is something that SEEMS insane like actually running Konstantine (get him out of the fridge, he's behind the expired ham) or Ozzel running 6-7 Raiders in from out of range to close, activating and flakking/blowing up the Gallant Haven, and then scooting off to NOT HERE town right after?

As someone who has played a similar list, what do you specifically not like to see across the table? What could an Imp player bring that would make you less happy with the matchup?

To get this to a very abstract level: is the list we're talking about so different from anything else that it takes something unlike anything else to beat it, but is that something then so specialized that it's crap agains more normal-fare lists?

Alright, last annoying method breakdown, I promise. If you want to farm objective points, you must either tank/mitigate what they can throw, prevent them from meaningfully attacking through deployment/terrain/positioning (this sounds like a possible job for the interdictor) prevent the carriers from reaching you via speed control, or make such a stupidly large amount of points that you don’t care what they do. (Lookin’ at you, Sensor Net Gozanti swarm!) Okay, I’m finally done. Anything left out?

8 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Alright, last annoying method breakdown, I promise. If you want to farm objective points, you must either tank/mitigate what they can throw, prevent them from meaningfully attacking through deployment/terrain/positioning (this sounds like a possible job for the interdictor) prevent the carriers from reaching you via speed control, or make such a stupidly large amount of points that you don’t care what they do. (Lookin’ at you, Sensor Net Gozanti swarm!) Okay, I’m finally done. Anything left out?

I like the IDEA behind this, just sitting on Fire Lanes/Sensor Net with 2 Lambdas letting you keep mashing the "get points" button from those 2. The issue becomes what your other ship(s) are, and what your other SQUADRONS are as well.

12 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

To get this to a very abstract level: is the list we're talking about so different from anything else that it takes something unlike anything else to beat it, but is that something then so specialized that it's crap agains more normal-fare lists?

That is what's being stated by some people, yes. I may have missed it upthread, but I don't know what those abstract Counters to the List are. Anyone got those written somewhere?

14 minutes ago, Alzer said:

As someone who has played a similar list, what do you specifically not like to see across the table? What could an Imp player bring that would make you less happy with the matchup?

Ships, period? I'm personally always vaguely nervous when my opponent puts something in front of me, as I don't know his playstyle, what this arrangement he's bringing does, how it all interacts, etc. MY basic list building plan usually comes down to finding a way to get this whole shebang to sing for me, and having a way to ensure that the choices I've made have been optimized to get the most out of what I'm doing.

Put a different way; I'm building the best list I can that can handle almost anything. I assume the other guy is as well, so what plan haven't I thought of that he HAS to deal with my list? That's my worry. I never go in to any matchup expecting to do well/table someone. I see an ISD and MY immediate thought is still "Crap, how I deal with this?"

If I have to answer, I've lost ships/squads to massive flak from CR90s and MC30s, I've lost them to Raiders, etc. Killing the squads once they leave the bubble is the easy answer, but I don't have a better one right NOW. I do know that well handled Raiders frequently give ME problems, but that may be because of who's running them. I can't make claims for the list as a whole, really.

5 minutes ago, geek19 said:

That is what's being stated by some people, yes. I may have missed it upthread, but I don't know what those abstract Counters to the List are. Anyone got those written somewhere?

They exist in other, mostly much older threads. Most are theory lists that may or may not have ever seen a real table. A large concern before Sloane was that an anti fighter wing capable of winning that war was a waste later in the game. Obviously that hasn't panned out as many hoped, in the Acehole specific matchup anyway. I have some other lists, some of which were tried but many with glaring weaknesses (weird activations, poor optimization against other lists, etc.).

1 minute ago, geek19 said:

I like the IDEA behind this, just sitting on Fire Lanes/Sensor Net with 2 Lambdas letting you keep mashing the "get points" button from those 2. The issue becomes what your other ship(s) are, and what your other SQUADRONS are as well.

3 Lambdas, Zertik and 2 Advanced, Mauler Mithel, Dengar, and behind the whole mess Valen Rudor, flashing his cheesy little smirk as he lobs dice. Just one random idea, but it's not inherently horrible against Sloane (so much generic hull!) and you don't want to engage anyone anyway. *shrugs* As for ships, you could do a lot. Relay Gozantis, Relay Quasar, some super tanky Motti Interdictor, Speed 1 Raiders saying "a little closer, please..." The beauty of going second and being objective based is they're only as fast as GH, and not super coordinated if they lack relay. Don't be under the illusion that I've thought this out, though. This is just spitballing ideas.

I have always thought that what keeps the Empire from taking 2 shuttles is that the ship itself is a little lackluster two blacks for AA and a blue for anti ship, I think a Sloan objective list could be really cool and I have been working on it for a little bit, has yet to hit the table but I think Sloan with two shuttles and more fighters could be a really cool fleet, and powerful fleet.

6 minutes ago, xero989 said:

I have always thought that what keeps the Empire from taking 2 shuttles is that the ship itself is a little lackluster two blacks for AA and a blue for anti ship, I think a Sloan objective list could be really cool and I have been working on it for a little bit, has yet to hit the table but I think Sloan with two shuttles and more fighters could be a really cool fleet, and powerful fleet.

I've ran it and I love it. Only a really dedicated squadron wing can afford to mess with Sloane Fire Lanes, and your carriers are in no real danger anymore with relay 4. Somebody once gave me 2nd player Advanced Gunnery for my ISD-II Avenger because the alternatives were so unappetizing.

5 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

3 Lambdas, Zertik and 2 Advanced, Mauler Mithel, Dengar, and behind the whole mess Valen Rudor, flashing his cheesy little smirk as he lobs dice. Just one random idea, but it's not inherently horrible against Sloane (so much generic hull!) and you don't want to engage anyone anyway. *shrugs* As for ships, you could do a lot. Relay Gozantis, Relay Quasar, some super tanky Motti Interdictor, Speed 1 Raiders saying "a little closer, please..." The beauty of going second and being objective based is they're only as fast as GH, and not super coordinated if they lack relay. Don't be under the illusion that I've thought this out, though. This is just spitballing ideas.

as a Rebel only player it doesn't SEEM bad. I've run similar builds with my own for objective play (2 VCX, a HWK, an X-wing or a YT or whatever for the points). Put that with the Interdictor denying deployment across the table and it theoretically COULD work.

I had a crazy idea once with Squall, Bossk/IG/Boba Fett/Maarek/Mauler and a Ruthless Strategists Squall. Launch them in with Squall (Mauler last) and then Ruthless Strategists whatever you need to in order to be sure they get hurt. That's 2 damage that can't be prevented. Once the squads are down, they all double as decent bomber or bomber esque (IG88) squadrons (especially when Bossk and Boba go flotilla hunting together). However, I don't Imp, so my suggestion could really be bad and I wouldn't know it. It seems slightly dumb to command Rogues with a ship, but if it gets you the jump turn 2 and knocks them down in health and possibly kills them, well who's dumb then?

So, i had to deal with this exact list in the mountain view regional and it was the list I beat for first. I was able to table him but man was it bloody and brutal. I had to drag his ships into a fight in the open and I won that with BT avenger and then demo cleaning house. Demo took 3 of the 4 ships. I had an ace ball of 5 aces and 1 tie interceptor, but they tore them apart.

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I wish I could claim the Raider idea was mine, but if you like Raiders, havvvvvvvvvvvvvvve you met @Snipafist?

There is a tiny part of me that wishes people would stop getting good with them, as it makes my squadron murdering job harder, haha.

I mean I feel like when I've run my current Ozzel 4 Raiders 1 Demo 2 Gozanti 4 TIEs fleet against variants of your Michigan Regionals fleet I've usually come off the better for it in most of the practice bouts, but many of them were prior to your current incarnation where you gave in to the dark side 2+3 fleet build, so rematches may have different outcomes now that you've got some more experience with the Devil your fleet.

I will say that with a low-squad MSU build, my priority target is Yavaris. All day every day. Gallant Haven is certainly public enemy #2, but I'm bringing enough squads to keep you honest and I plan to use them as sparingly as possible to pick off heavy bombers or push aces over if I can. Definitely to engage squadrons to stop them from using FCTs if that would allow you to Yavaris double-tap with them in a later activation. The TIEs are going to die eventually(/soon) and by then Yavaris absolutely needs to be dead. If that can be accomplished, I'm in a better situation - without the damage boost from Yavaris, you can't crunch through (most) ships in a single activation any more and your total squadron damage goes down. It means Gallant Haven is the heaviest squad lifter and I've hopefully got a plan to drop it shortly after Yavaris. I want to underscore how important it is to make sure none of my ships (barring lucky attacks from Luke on a scatter-busted Gozanti, NO I'M NOT BITTER) can be dropped completely in one activation as that's extremely important with getting the Raider flak to start adding up, even if it mostly chips away at the aces 1 point at a time (although with concentrate fire + External Racks, I will happily dump 5 damage braced to 3 into some ace who thought they were safe if those Ex Racks aren't needed elsewhere). Gozanti flak is also important and they're generally unappealing bomber targets when Raiders are a more immediate threat, but 1 damage from a Gozanti is the same as 2 braced to 1 from a Raider against the aces. Anyways, after Yavaris is hopefully dead and with FCTs gone, the Demo/Raiders can get their attacks in and outrun the speed 2 and 3 squadrons if they need to in order to escape bomber death while hopefully taking out some more ships with them before they jet away (or, if circumstances are favorable, stick around). It's tense and I expect at least 1-2 small ships are going to get stung to death by BEES but it's doable. I could keep writing about this at length, but I feel those are the basics.

In terms of why this has become a prevalent Rebel build (Gallant Haven + Yavaris + 3 GR-75s), it's because it's good. Rebels have good, flexible, synergistic squadrons that can go nuts when they get the opportunity and they're good against a variety of targets. Gallant Haven is specifically in there because it's good against Sloane builds - you effectively flip the dynamic Sloane was looking to exploit by bringing your maxed-out squadron ball and beating the maxed-out alpha-strike-dependent Sloane ball and then moving on to Sloane's fleet, except your fleet has 5 activations and the Sloane fleet normally has just 3 or 4. The problem is the Sloane fleets haven't really worked out a good counter just yet like the Rebel 2+3 fleets had to do against Sloane (see: why Peltas at the moment aren't so common in these builds as they once were, you need the Gallant Haven to handle Sloane and the Pelta builds melt against Sloane). So I guess what I'm getting at there is because Sloane has become so popular, this variation on an earlier popular and powerful Rebel build has become popular to counter her as well as being able to hold its own against other common archetypes. So long as it remains popular, I'm not entirely sure that Sloane is a workable top-tier commander unless/until someone finds a way to build counter-Gallant Haven and friends tech into Sloane fleets; whether this is possible while still remaining competitive against other fleets I'm not entirely sure. I'm leaning "no," but maybe I'll be surprised - I'm reminded somewhat of how the Clonisher DeMSU fleets buried Ackbar's prominence in wave 2 and for months we had Ackbar players looking for counters that simply weren't there if you were playing Ackbar.*

*On a funny side note, the stock response to these complaints was "Rieekan is really good against DeMSU," which was met with "but I refuse to play him because he sucks." Yes, back in wave 2 most Rebel players didn't want to use pre-nerf Rieekan because they were confident he was otherwise garbage.

I'm guilty of having played the Dodonna version for a very long time. A friend played the Riekan one. We dominated the local meta which was full of Imperial focused players. I'm pretty sure the shlow but steady failure of our Armada group (lucky to get a game in now, down from eight players at peak) was in part sure to the stagnation we caused. Even when setting the fleet aside specifically to find ways to counter it, I struggled. Over time I've found ways to pick at it, but not smash it out. I feel like there are way too many pillars of strength to it. And many of those are not even upgrades or combinations thereof. As a list...

X-wings are just good

B-wings are just really good

HWK-290 is solid

Yavaris is great

Toryn is amazing

18 points for a flotilla is a steal

AFmk2 is solid

To me that list doesn't have a comparison on the Imperial side. Like just to try...

Demolisher is great

Victory 2 is good if you got capacitor on it

Interdictor is solid

...

I'm struggling here. There really isn't much in the Imperial faction that I sit there and say "gosh how do I put this in the list because it's so good and well work well ALL THE TIME."

Personally? If I could make one change that would tick everyone off, but maybe change how this meta is, and develops? Squads get their anti-ship damage capped at two. You get to select any two of your showing faces, but at most you can deal two with a critical actual damage. B-wings can deal two with an accuracy. But Yavaris busy B's with Luke can't deal 16 fracking damage with six criticals in one activation. If you have Nora in range you could max out at 22 damage in one activation. They could still deal 12 mind you and six could be critical. But basically nothing else in the game gets screwed over by this change except for the Yavaris and friends combo, and not even that badly.

Short of the long. Having been an acehole player without realizing it, yeah, it needs attention.

1 hour ago, Mig1921 said:

I had to drag his ships into a fight in the open

...exactly as I suggested upthread. You have to force this group to move, preferably in a way that disrupts their formation.

Re: Konsantine,

If you could get VSDs to survive damage better it could be worth it. Move forward with a couple of VSDs and use Konsantine to drag some targets to their doom, push away others, so you feed targets into the front of an Expanded Launchers VSD with ordnance experts and intel officers. Melt targets through sheer force of raw dice delivered to the face. Just one problem- VSDs aren't that resilient, and going to ISDs is prohibitively expensive. Maybe when Kuats come out?

2 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Maybe when Kuats come out?

I'll definitely be trying 2 or three with Flechette Torpedoes, Kallus, LS, a DR and maybe even QLT... they'll be deliciously evil for antisquad work all by themselves.