43 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I know On a serious note, I don't believe it's the case. Decimators alone won't have enough firepower to win a squadron fight, so it will require a pretty specific build (probably a mix of Decimators with something else and maybe Ruthless Strategists or another form of ship's support)

Ruthless Strats are definitely the way to go.

A Demo built with RS, alongside Mauler can wreck them aces fast with damage that cannot be soaked via bigs/GH. Just need to take some Decimators to soak all them RS hits.

Mauler plus the Demo Ruthless Triple tap will do 5 damage to everything in range in a last/first scenario, 1 point at a time, and none of it is from an Attack.

11 minutes ago, svelok said:

Like Rieekan, Biggs wasn't present in the variants at the Michigan regionals (linky).

And, speaking of, now that we've got the lists from Michigan - Gallant Haven bombers showed up in:

1st and 6th, out of 20, in Georgia.
1st, 4th, and 16th, out of 32, in Michigan.
Not present in Ohio.

So, what did the fleets have in common?

They didn't all field Rieekan, and they didn't all field Jan Ors or Biggs. They brought a whole variety of different objectives and squadrons - some with 2x VCXs, some with Norra, any number of different upgrades on their flotillas. Some spent 30 of their 134 points on VCXs, some brought up to 4 generics, some brought nothing but X/Y/B Wing aces with Jan.

So this archetype ranges from Luke+Wedge+Biggs+Jan Ors under Rieekan (first place in Georgia); to Luke as the only Escort with no Intel under Dodonna (first place in Michigan). Of the 4 higher ranking fleets, they brought 10 different objectives.

No wonder nobody can agree on how to play against them.

As the guy in 4th, im working on a writeup for how i generated the list and all. Not that it really contributes in the "how imp beat dis" plan, but where I came into the thing might provide an idea of what's happening behind its genesis and all.

7 minutes ago, geek19 said:

As the guy in 4th, im working on a writeup for how i generated the list and all. Not that it really contributes in the "how imp beat dis" plan, but where I came into the thing might provide an idea of what's happening behind its genesis and all.

I'll be delighted to read it when you get it.

5 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

It's always going to win the squadron game.

So stop playing the squadron game against it.

MM++ v6.7 (395/400)

==================
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 59)
+ Mon Mothma (30)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
+ Admonition (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 10)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 10)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 10)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
Most Wanted
Hyperspace assault
Solar Corona

I like where your head is at, here, but why stop at 4?

With Dodonna (and with that many APTs, Dodonna crits are nice) you could just take 5x MC30c TF w/ OE and APT, and still fit a GR-75 in there for padding. Sure, 'only' 6 activations instead of 7, but 5 of them are torpedo boats. Presuming you are being boring and just using Dodonna to fish for 'structural damage' cards, you end up with a list pretty easily able to land 10 hull damage a turn, bypassing nearly all defenses to do so.

7 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I like where your head is at, here, but why stop at 4?

With Dodonna (and with that many APTs, Dodonna crits are nice) you could just take 5x MC30c TF w/ OE and APT, and still fit a GR-75 in there for padding. Sure, 'only' 6 activations instead of 7, but 5 of them are torpedo boats. Presuming you are being boring and just using Dodonna to fish for 'structural damage' cards, you end up with a list pretty easily able to land 10 hull damage a turn, bypassing nearly all defenses to do so.

Because Mothma is how the shrimp deliver their payloads. Except when Luke drops by.

2 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

A few things:

1: Blail isn't the OP, I am. Frankly, that's why people are even talking, because everyone knows Blail's opinion on the subject and that it can't be changed

2: I see a few major flaws in your list design for dealing with this archetype, and it makes me thing that you haven't seen it played. Firstly, those Raiders are dead the moment they get within squadron range of their targets. Second, your bombers can't actually damage the enemy squads if they stay in range of Gallant Haven, because their 1 damage will be immediately removed by the GH effect. Finally, with only 4 ships, you'll be leaving one or more enemy carriers to activate squadrons after you've moved into position - I haven't seen any variation on this archetype with fewer than 4 ships, usually 5. That's generally about 6-10 attacks (2 from Yavaris for 3 squads, another 3-4 from Gallant Haven, and one potential bonus from Adar Talon) before you attack. A Raider has only a maximum of 7 health (Motti for 5 HP + 2 shields) before it is destroyed, and just the Yavaris has a high probability of achieving that in one round of squadron activations, then its own attacks. Again, you're attempting to alpha strike a list that is explicitly designed to neuter alpha strike efforts.

1. Ah, reading comprehension fail on my part. I think I confused this thread with his comment in the regionals results thread.

2. As I said in the first sentence of my post, I haven't played this yet. It's just an idea. But one that I think has merit.

What I think you're overlooking is that only ONE of the raiders or the gozanti needs to live in order to adequately disrupt the Aceholes. Slicer tools will keep Yavaris from doing anything productive; Vader can disard the title completely, and between Kallus and Ordnance experts, it's safe to say that anything within flak range of instigator won't get to do anything. The fact that only one of these ships needs to survive, combined with the fact that they can all approach from different attack vectors, is what makes this an effective combo breaker. I've flown against the Aceholes a couple of times before, and in my experience, it relies on pretty tight formations. The bombing power is very impressive, but B-wings are slow, so multiple fast ships approaching from different sides make it difficult for the aces to cover against all threats. The Vader-Raider can approach from one flank, and the gozanti and instigator can come from the other, while the ISD waits in the center. If the aces go after the gozanti and instigator, they can't guard against Vader, who will simply discard Yavaris.

It's definitely an untested idea, so I can understand some skepticism, but just as we have not seen it succeed, neither have we seen it fail. I'll definitely report back with my results after I have a chance to try it, but since you're actively looking for possible solutions, I humbly submit that you may want to try the ones that are offered before rejecting them outright.

The one thing I've noticed about this list is that the solution everybody seems to try is to wading in arms flailing like mad in a full frontal assault, usually at the start of turn 2 and the results are always the same. Since this list has to maintain a fairly tight grouping of ships the bubble gradually breaks apart if the game goes beyond turn 4 and if threats from multiple directions are present, unfortunately most are toast by then.

I recently watched @dupy engage @roquax and do quite well splitting his 2 main fighting ships up (insidious and demo) to work like mad to flank GH and yavaris and the support ships. He just about pulled it off if had he played more cautiously and peeled away rather than diving in.This was another piece of evidence in my theory that the way to counter this is through maintaining credible threats from multiple directions.

8 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

@Truthinesslists like my dreadnoughts that say screw it, and charge. With two ISDs.

That was my solution after running into it at a casual escalator tourney in raleigh. I ran 2xISD (1 avenger/bt, other isd2 with gunnery) with motti and rbd with the intention of just blowing **** up and running away as I tank any remaining squads. Still haven't run into your problem list since I have started playing this one though so I can't really say how it would perform beyond my intent lol.

We keep asking the wrong question.

The question is not "How do I beat an Ace Hole?" If you don't have a plan for your list to play against common archetypes, then why did you bring that list in the first place? No, the question is "When will the meta change such that if I am at the top table in Round 3, I won't likely be matched up against an Ace Hole." That archetype is going to hang around major tournaments until the meta itself is so hostile to it that no one is going to take it.

There are ways for a single player to deal with a single other player with an Ace Hole list. That has been talked to death.

The "problem" is that it is a good list that good players can fly well. And a good player flying a good list well is going to do very well in any given tournament. These are quality players winning with these lists, and the lists are winning because a lot of other archetypes out there are very susceptible to a well flown Ace Hole list.

58 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

There are ways for a single player to deal with a single other player with an Ace Hole list. That has been talked to death.

Could you provide a link or two for these threads? Because I was under the impression that was what was being discussed here, and that's what I'm looking for. The whole experience aspect is a separate problem one can't do as much against besides practice, and therefore doesn't feel as troubling.

Although one could argue aceholes enjoys a higher skill ceiling than many other builds.

I'm not saying at all that the following is op in any regards. Just that.... Bt avenger can easily one activate gallent haven...... I mean you need nine damage. rieekan has never been my cup of tea but I haven't felt the af2 had a place in the game for a while now.... Which I guess shows what I know.

Never mind. I'm just plain absolutely done.

Madine + 3x Liberty class MC80s with engine techs. No squadrons. It's hilarious how irrelevant B wings become when everyone is large based speed 4 and turns on a dime.

@thecactusman17, the list you dropped looks eerily familiar.... did you cross paths with Mythics again?

I've tried many times as Empire to take this list on, trying to find some solution but it never worked. Most of our meta also runs rebels to either 1, compete with this list or 2, to have more variety than the Empire. Most of our regional meta sees about 1-2 empire players and the rest are rebels (sometimes those 1 and 2 include Cactus and myself).

I think the only way to stop a list like this is to make your bid deeper so you go second and force the list to move and get out of position. Forcing the fighters to move means things like the B-Wings are going to need some extra pushing to get them to attack speed 0 targets camping objectives on your end of the board. I don't see any fighter movement assistant tools in that list you posted, except FCT to make Yavaris overpowered.

Immediately as Empire you could build a star fortress list with Grav Shift Re-Route and GX-7 projectors. Move obstacles where you want, then deploy your ships in the speed 0 zone on top of the objectives you want (Contested Outpost / Sensor Net with Shuttles / Station Assault). Bank a nav token on one round, wait for whichever ships and fighters to get to your end of the board, then obliterate whatever comes into range. In addition to the Interdictor, you could have a Demo lying in wait ready to jump on the first ship that closes with you (with Ozzel). Or a couple of VSDs with DCaps to plod forward and tank for you to take advantage of anyone speeding to your side of the board.

Point of that list is to try forcing the rebels to get out of position on their approach to your highly defensive list. Their best bombers, B-Wings, don't have the speed to cross the board fast enough to do a lot of damage if you're camping. It's not fun, but neither is playing against Rieekan even after his nerf.

One non-Interdictor strategy I would have tried would be the ARQ battery to try annihilating the first things that come into range (Slaved Turrets with Intel Officer, Concentrate Fire). For defense, swarm Firesprays or Aggressors to lock down enemy starfighters and hit back with some decent punching when they can move-shoot with Rogue.

11 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Could you provide a link or two for these threads? Because I was under the impression that was what was being discussed here, and that's what I'm looking for. The whole experience aspect is a separate problem one can't do as much against beside practice, and therefore doesn't feel as troubling.

I really don't think there is much in other threads that hasn't been mentioned in some place in this one. Some of the problem has been discussion in a forum thread like this, the nuggets get lost in the mix.

20 minutes ago, Tirion said:

I'm not saying at all that the following is op in any regards. Just that.... Bt avenger can easily one activate gallent haven...... I mean you need nine damage. rieekan has never been my cup of tea but I haven't felt the af2 had a place in the game for a while now.... Which I guess shows what I know.

I think the response there is Rieekan declaring his A/F the target, you've blown your wad against one ship, now here comes a swarm of fighters to claw your face off and beat you to death. That's if you alpha against capital ships- if you alpha against fighters, here's wedge sucking up all your fighter attacks that RIeekan has declared his unkillable fire magnet... or whichever of the aces you happened to engage first with your fighter ball (or whichever ace will likely lock down the most fighters). Rieekan can also feed you one escort ace squadron at a time to keep your alpha fighters (and Sloane) locked up for a while while his freed B-Wings chew on any ship you bring into range.

Offensively It's really Norra that's the strength of this fighter ball. Even with massed Y-Wings, the ability to delete shields in the race to get to deal hull damage, shouldn't be underestimated. Yavaris pushes this up to absurd levels, and BCC/Toryn allows you a good amount of control. Nerfing the BCC brought it down from super overpowered to 'just' overpowered, since a good many rebel Bombers still use Blue on their battery (which is why we see massed B-Wings with Gold squadron in these lists).

...I wonder if this is gonna be another merry-go-round of players asking for help against this list, everyone telling us it isn't that bad, then we're vindicated in the next large-scale tournament when that exact list not only tops, but tops fighting itself. At least in my region, we've know about this archetype and fought against it for a long time before it appeared on the national scene. Now, here we are again discussing it, and there isn't an easy answer, because nobody delivered a definitive kill against it. At least, not that I was aware of. Seemed like the tournament scene decided that list type wasn't fun to fly or face and went an entirely different direction.

The answer is clear...Y-wings... *mic drop*

7 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

The solution I do have was, and continues to be, roundly dismissed by people who've never seen it work. I guarantee that finding a reliable Imperial counter to this will also require something so far outside the norm that it will be dismissed until it's been demonstrated to work. Crazy ideas are going to be what the solution is built on, so I'm gonna keep bringing them up.

I feel like we're not discussing THIS enough. There isn't really a magic bullet yet that we can all look at and go "OH, QUAD LASER TURRETS! There you were, hiding behind the milk and Konstantine in the fridge, no wonder I forgot about you! Time to insert you into my list and win all the games herp derp derp bam. Sukk it, Rieekan Aces! You just got taken to Counter-1 town!"

But that seems to be a good amount of the discussion here (and I'm NOT trying to start a fight here with anyone), what REGULAR tactics do we need to beat this good combo list? What if it is some sort of off-the-wall tactic that solves it? What if the answer is something that SEEMS insane like actually running Konstantine (get him out of the fridge, he's behind the expired ham) or Ozzel running 6-7 Raiders in from out of range to close, activating and flakking/blowing up the Gallant Haven, and then scooting off to NOT HERE town right after?

25 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

The answer is clear...Y-wings... *mic drop*

That's your solution to everything, move under the sea. Well it's not going to happen!

7 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Konstantine in the fridge

Hate it when I go down for a midnight snack and he’s watching me with his beady, judgemental little eyes.

15 minutes ago, geek19 said:

What if the answer is something that SEEMS insane like actually running Konstantine

Surprisingly he may be good against acehole-type of list that relies of formation flying. Messing up with speeds and forcing collisions is tough on flotillas.

Just now, PT106 said:

Surprisingly he may be good against acehole-type of list that relies of formation flying. Messing up with speeds and forcing collisions is tough on flotillas.

That's what my buddy and I were talking on the way back. The issue of course, is finding a Konstantine list that isn't wet hot garbage

Just now, PT106 said:

Surprisingly he may be good against acehole-type of list that relies of formation flying. Messing up with speeds and forcing collisions is tough on flotillas.

Sounds like a job for @Ginkapo. As I sit here though, I think the real trick would then being able to actually exploit those cracks and punish pulling everything out of place. In any case, this might be a job for Gozantis with Slicers and Tractor Beams, just for the back rank parts.

39 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:

The answer is clear...Y-wings... *mic drop*

This illustrates a key point in the thread. JJ is by reputation a good player. He plays a lot of different lists. He could probably beat GH on a lot of different lists.

And to reflect back on an earlier post of mine, one of the keys to JJ's list was seen in one of the lists that I ran and beat GH with, a double-Intel Bomber list. The GH list is anti-fighter first, and in a race between "your ships+your bombers" versus "the opponent's ships" you've got the exchange there. In my experience, 1-2 squadrons ALWAYS end up outside of GH's bubble where they can be destroyed, but in this set-up, GH can easily end up activating and moving away from squadrons that are now engaged. It is a tough fight either way, but it is at least feasible to think it is a fair fight.

Just now, geek19 said:

That's what my buddy and I were talking on the way back. The issue of course, is finding a Konstantine list that isn't wet hot garbage

At some point I ran a (surprise) 2ISD list with 2 slicer gozantis and a mix of defenders and interceptors (essentially a copycat of a winning 2ISD+2Gz+Defenders archetype that John Kwak was running but tilted for Konstantine). It was surprisingly good.