Seems like the real underlying thought here is "I can't just drive my two big cheese wedges right at this build and just point and shoot anymore, what do I do? Please tell me the answer."

The answer isn't in making a build just to counter this one. Sure, you might be able to best the Aceholes, but then what? You still will have to diversify your tactics with your fleet when you face opponents with different builds.

And there's your real answer to the problem: being able to get the most of your fleet and reorganize and rethink your strategies each and every game. I get making a build around a base tactic, but that won't get you to the top three in a tournament. It's even been said here that the Aceholes won't run themselves and takes talent to get the most out of, so what do you think that means?

It means a willingness to change and be fluid with your fleet and tactics with each opponent. And I don't mean midstride either, I'm talking right when you see their build and know what they're going to do (changing tactics mid-game in Armada is not forgiving). Knowing your fleet and objectives and utilizing them in various ways is what real talent does in this game.

First off, I saw this go up this morning and thought "what a great topic!" I definitely want to contribute some thoughts, but trying to find the right things to say in response to the concerns in the thread is difficult.

In the central Texas community, we have had Brik's GH list going all the way back to wave-1. It has certainly gotten better over time, and he's certainly very good. In my entire history of playing the game, I've only met 4-5 players with whom I felt like held intellectually equivalent conversations (equivalent to Brik, I mean). This is not to diminish anyone, especially people with whom I didn't have a chance to converse or whose personalities are quieter, but the first point that is worth making is:

How much is it the man and how much is it the list?

Brik wins a ton of games even when he doesn't bring GH. You could say the same about any of a number of well known players, and although I'm sure Ard, who is both remarkably skilled and thoughtful, is more mistake-prone when he's not flying Mothma 30s, he's still going to put together a well-thought out list and fly it well. Lots of skills carry over from list to list and often the skill variance is such that the list only matters marginally against players of equal skill. This is to say that I've beaten Gallant Haven quite handily when it is not flown by someone like Brik.

And so for our first round of sobering commentary, I'd answer the first question that for a lot of players, the answer is "you don't beat it" because the skill isn't there in the first place.

Part II: A brief history of my encounters with Brik's Gallant Haven

I've played Brik's GH list 6 times in total. Both of us are often hustling at our respective events, and might be sitting out to TO, so it isn't exactly easy to have a pairing come up with the two of us in a tournament, and it is a bit far for each of us to drive for casual games. This includes 1 wave-2 game, 2 wave 3/4 games, and 2 wave 5 games, and 1 wave 6 game. We've also played 3 or 4 games where he wasn't fielding Gallant Haven. Almost every game was played with very different lists, and although the older match-ups might seem less instructive for the present, they are worth noting and telling as part of a history.

Game-1, July 2016: I was coming off a regional win with a Rieekan Death pickle, and ever in search for variety, I was inspired by Q's Nationals win, which led me to build my own Mothma Admonition/CR90 list. I wasn't going to buy 8 YT2400s, so I changed a CR90 for an Assault Frigate, was running Raymus/EHB/FC with 4 A-wings/1 X-wing/Jan Ors. That may seem like a weird squadron set-up now, but it had reasonable chances given what other good players such as Truthiness and Biggs were posting at the time. On paper, this looks bad for my own squadron set-up, but in practice, Jan added survivability, and there's an awful lot of DPS in the fleet set-up itself. Furthermore, since it was wave-2, Brik had 2 Corvettes which made the list a lot more vulnerable, and I took 2nd and he took my Contested Outpost. 8-2 (the 11 point system had not been introduced at the time).

Game 2, September 2016: Wave 3/4 had dropped, which had everyone testing out FC/FCT/BCC. Here, I was taking inspiration from Norm's two activation GenCon list and was running a 3 activation list, and taking an idea from Ginkapo on compensating with a bid for first. I was running 10 squadron Dodonna Bombers off an MC80, Yavaris, and a BCC transport. I took first, and I think he might have had Fire Lanes at the time, which is a great objective if you can push the opponent off of it and clean tokens in the last round. In the end, we traded Yavarises. He had two Flotillas for a Corvette, so was at fire activations. GH made it out, but so did my MC80, and I was a little better on tokens, for a 7-4.

Game-3, late October 2016: Brik was gearing up for worlds and was playing a form of his list that eventually took second there. 3 flotillas finally, so this is really the first game that was in the appropriate level of shape to the list as we know it now. I see wave-4 as when the list really approached its current potency, and wave-5 objectives+Strategic+new squadrons as really offering some powerful additions to it. I was back to running a Mothma MC30/CR90 list. I think I had both Foresight/Admonition plus at least one CR90, plus at least one flotilla. I was probably at five activations, guessing. 4 A-wings, 4 YT2400. A few things in common with Q's Nationals list, Steve's Nova list, and one can see a parallel to Aresius' squadron set-up in his Liberty/Dodonna list. It has the right kind of squadrons to entangle, and then pop/finish to enemy squads. Here, Brik experimented on set-up with Yavaris and GH split apart, and the end result was a 6-5 in my favor, but we both thought that if they were bunched together, he'd possibly have bagged Admonition and may have lost less. I certainly made some mistakes too in the squadron game. Its a tough match-up to get right.

Game-4, January 2017: We did a 4 person tournament, all of whom had regional victory or top-4 finishes. This was that odd Classic Ben tournament where I went 1-2 and still won. I lost my game with Brik here by 16 points. I had updated my Rieekan Battleship build for the current wave set-up. I was going second and he took my fire lanes, managed to pin in the MC80, sacrificing Gallant Haven to do so, but I'd bagged so many Fire Lanes tokens. He may not quite have gotten VCX into the list yet. In any event, this was better maneuvering on my part away from getting the MC80 away freely, and quite possibly a bit better Corvette maneuvering away from picking off an additional ship or two.

Game-5, April 2017: This was the first time I'd actually got to field Madine's exotic Dancers against him since having built that list with Brik's GH list in mind. We both deployed fairly conservatively. We knew each other's strength as a player and neither of us were going to risk things unnecessarily. At one point, I was able to use a Quantum Storm Slicer Tool Flotilla to suicide ram another flotilla to death that was worth more points. Brik pointed out at the time that if I'd pulled all my squads back entirely, it would have left the game 6-5 in my favor and he'd really have had to have been aggressive to pull of a win. Instead, I got a couple of squads outside GH range, but lost a touch more of my light squadron force in return. 5-6 loss

Game-6, July 2017: Here, I was goofing around with a regenerating Death Pickle Pelta. I think Brik was ahead in the score and was able to abuse Strategic to take the 75 points from Intel Sweep while otherwise leaving all of us disengaged. It was a really good move on his part. Toward the end, he'd bagged the 75, and decided to extend his hand elsewhere, losing almost all of his squadrons in the process (over 110 points). I had Shara and 3 A-wings plus tons of flak. 4-7 loss.

Part III: Lessons in Fighting the list

1. Go Second: There are too many gimmicky builds out there that have the strength to power through as second player. This is part of the reason I'm no longer bidding 385. At that point, I'm wasting points when in some match-ups it is clearly better to be going second, but I do like being 394-396 because you can almost always pick second if you want it without leaving that many points on the table, and as long as you're comfortable playing second against some higher bidding match-ups, you can still take first against the rest. Regardless of whether you're facing a standard points objective or some kind of Planetary Ion/Minefields/Strategic like Brik uses, against Aceholes and most squadron set-ups, you're facing objectives that are really hard to fight against. So what you want is a list with objectives that cannot as easily be exploited with a first player Strategic, and which work well enough as second player.

2. Or just Go First and be comfortable with the red objective: The game has a lot of great choices in the Yellow/Blue column that completely run up the score. That means you really need to be comfortable with the red objective, usually Most Wanted.

3. You cannot have a Squadron Fight near Gallant Haven. As Ard mentions above, you'll lose every time. Ard goes so far as to play no squadrons and avoid the squadron game at all. I've always looked at light squadrons, because in a lot of match-ups they completely repay their points. In both of my higher squad total pre-wave 5 games, I did fine. I didn't feel like I got toasted on squads. High speed squads that can be a lot of places can deny the opponent attacking around GH. The simple fact is that when Brik played Steve's Crackinator at the 2016 worlds semifinal, Brik had already played a list like Steve's in the form of my Mothma list posted #3 above, but Steve hadn't played anything like Brik's list before. That Crackinator is probably could have been played to a better result with some level of experience.

4. Any good list needs some kind of point denial. The GH list works through all of the denied points for taking flotillas versus bigger things, but mainly through GH in the squadron game. Your own activations, commander, speed, maneuverability, and even objectives are utterly critical to being able to point deny.

5. Play for a right score. I had a conversation with several good players yesterday that mentioned that most of us play first for the win, and then take whatever other points the opponent is willing to throw at us. A lot 10-1s happen because of desperation at the end of the game or because our opponents didn't just recognize the board state and didn't adjust to trying to keep some points to themselves. But at the end of a tournament, 1 or 2 tournaments can represent a huge difference in final placement. That means that you must have the ability to recover from mistakes at the game board. It also means you respect the skill level of the opponent and play for a right score. Brik often plays for a 6-5 or 7-4 against me, not because anyone is talking about my lists being OP on the boards, but because he recognizes that I'm going to play well enough to deny points.

6. Someone mentioned red dice in this thread: I think you notice in all of my better performances, I had a good number of quality red dice shots coming in. Gallant Haven with an ECM will stand up extremely well to really big shots from red/blue batteries, but it doesn't like a bunch of 3 damage shots coming in.

7. Balanced Arms: The Rieekan Battleship blood bath had a good mix of ships that are very potent on ships, and there is probably something to be said for adding ET to those Corvettes and just ramming out flotillas, especially on a Rieekaned Corvette. But having Jaina's+MC80 at red on incoming shots, and two CR90Bs that can be flown so that he can only pop one a turn and can provide multiple 3 damage attacks, that's golden.

8. Figure out your Trades: Most lists have to figure out how to trade a weaker ship for a stronger one of the opponents. In my Rieekan list, CR90Bs can sometimes end up doing 15 hull damage in a game. 4 3 damage shots, 2 rams, and then they ram you back. That's almost entirely due to Rieekan, and its brutal, and it really doesn't matter if the squadrons eat both of them because they are so cheap that it becomes inherently tradeable. But note that even Brik knew when to trade GH for an MC80.

Part IV: Other General Thoughts

Since much of the concern in the thread is Imperial, I'm going to focus in on these points.

1. You cannot play Imperials in a plug-and-play mode. If you look at our regional attendance so far, Imperials are brought much more frequently than Rebels. There is something intrinsically built into the lure of Star Wars that makes people want to play Imperials. This is all healthy by itself, but recognize that you cannot just plop a couple of ISDs on the table and march them along mindlessly and hope that it somehow wins. Your opponent is outthinking you. That's why you're losing.

2. Post-nerf Rhymer is a heck of a lot better than people give him credit for. The first anti-GH list I built with Sloan post-nerf used Rhymer. I think Norm had Rhymer at GenCon when Brik played him and lost. The key here is that a blob of squadrons can choke off distance 1 access to GH, but Rhymer allows them to circumvent that. He's nerfed yes, but he's still very good in his ability to alter positioning. The difficulty is that much like GH is a high skill floor list to fly, so also will Rhymer and the right squadron set-up be a high skill floor list to fly. You either go absolutely all-in with Rhymer and squadrons OR. The squadrons could be something like Tie Bombers and Ruthless strategists, ala Ginkapo above, or it could be Sloan+blue dice in either ace/non-ace variety.

3. You go extremely light squads and try to imitate something like what I do with Madine or Ard does with MC30s. The problem is that most of the Imperial equivalents just don't work exactly the same way as their Rebel counterparts. The Arquittens is more robust than a CR90, but it isn't that much more robust and it still pops to squadrons like a CR90. The Gladiator is more offensive than an MC30, but the MC30s superiority is in natural speed 4 and in its overall higher quality defensiveness. The Raider cannot be the same sacrificial blocker as a Rieekan CR90B or even HH, and the difference ET makes on a Liberty means you really have to build your ISD and entire fleet differently. I built an Imperial version of my Madine list recently for a friend, and if played well, it has the tools to do some damage down range, but in the end, we both thought it really didn't have the tools to do what my Madine list did. That said, I'd be curious if there weren't some kind of Jerry Arquittens/Raider-II/Disposible Capacitor MSU that could hold up pretty well in a lot of match-ups while also going light squad. Speed-3 squads just cannot be everywhere at once, so you want to make it as absolutely hard as possible in the maneuvering to be able to hit multiple ships a turn. MSUs are primed to do this well.

4. This is against squads in general, and not just GH, but throwing Cluster Bombs on CR90s, MC30s and Arquittens, classic targets that attract squadron attention, but which can easily fly outside of GH's bubble range and which can lure the squadrons off suddenly looks interesting. You're doing 3 non-braceable/unscatterable damage to what is likely to be a key Ace squad, possibly outright killing a Sloan Ace, and making a key squad like Luke vulnerable to Flak or your own follow-up. A follow-up with your own squads (and there are tons of good speed 4-5 squads) can finish off that key unit. Although that might be the only one you get on a given turn, the fact that it happened before that squad got multiple rounds of shooting is critical. The GH squadron list is highly tuned, and the loss of one key squad, especially anti-ship squads, significantly diminishes its firepower.

Part V: Concluding thoughts

We're talking about a good list flown by some extremely skilled players. Winning isn't going to come easy. What makes the GH list good, and where I see some concern, is in the ease of its consistency. I know when I sit down with my Madine list that I can lose big. I can make two small mistakes and have them be worth 220 points, as happened yesterday. But not knowing how to move around speed-3 squadrons could cost you just as much in a GH list, and what separates Brik and some of the others is that they've flown the crap out of that list for a very long time and have very good strategic minds to begin with. Now, sure, I do hope that wave 7 will open up a lot about the meta. I'm sure the first round of nerfs weren't all of the nerfs that FFG had been thinking about, but you change the game through baby steps, and if a bunch more regionals come out with Rieekan Acehole wins, then we may see another round of nerfs next summer.

10 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

"I can't just drive my two big cheese wedges right at this build and just point and shoot anymore, what do I do? Please tell me the answer."

I take it you main Rebels? Either way that's a ridiculous generalization.

11 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

Sure, you might be able to best the Aceholes,

And this sentence, right here, is the entire point of the thread. All you need to do is look at the regionals placement to see that Sloane, who was supposed to be an answer specifically for this, isn't working well so far. When one build places first consistently over others, it's not a matter of "get good," unless you believe most Imperial players and most non-acehole Rebels have a lower skill level in this game. So we start by finding a way to counter ace holes specifically, then work on diversifying it. Because being a better player than your acehole opponent isn't a real answer; there will always be better and worse players than you.

6 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

Seems like the real underlying thought here is "I can't just drive my two big cheese wedges right at this build and just point and shoot anymore, what do I do? Please tell me the answer."

The answer isn't in making a build just to counter this one. Sure, you might be able to best the Aceholes, but then what? You still will have to diversify your tactics with your fleet when you face opponents with different builds.

And there's your real answer to the problem: being able to get the most of your fleet and reorganize and rethink your strategies each and every game. I get making a build around a base tactic, but that won't get you to the top three in a tournament. It's even been said here that the Aceholes won't run themselves and takes talent to get the most out of, so what do you think that means?

It means a willingness to change and be fluid with your fleet and tactics with each opponent. And I don't mean midstride either, I'm talking right when you see their build and know what they're going to do (changing tactics mid-game in Armada is not forgiving). Knowing your fleet and objectives and utilizing them in various ways is what real talent does in this game.

Most people who I've played would probably not describe my style as "mindlessly driving a cheese wedge" even though I do tend to play no/light squads.

Suggesting that you play with a fluid and dynamic style isn't only within the mind, but within the tools at the disposal of players. As you've probably noticed, a lot of my concerns come from playing Imperial fleets. Imperial ships and squadrons are typically designed to perform much more specific roles than Rebel fleets. The ISD for example comes with a whole mess of features, but there's just no ignoring that nearly all the available firepower is in the somewhat narrow front arc. If you want to shoot at ships, that's going to be an important consideration to being effective. If you want to go after objectives, steering away from valuable targets can quickly make you go from threatening predator to vulnerable prey.

4 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Most people who I've played would probably not describe my style as "mindlessly driving a cheese wedge" even though I do tend to play no/light squads.

Suggesting that you play with a fluid and dynamic style isn't only within the mind, but within the tools at the disposal of players. As you've probably noticed, a lot of my concerns come from playing Imperial fleets. Imperial ships and squadrons are typically designed to perform much more specific roles than Rebel fleets. The ISD for example comes with a whole mess of features, but there's just no ignoring that nearly all the available firepower is in the somewhat narrow front arc. If you want to shoot at ships, that's going to be an important consideration to being effective. If you want to go after objectives, steering away from valuable targets can quickly make you go from threatening predator to vulnerable prey.

This doesn't refute my point, you're locked into playing ISDs in a build without versatility.

Vergilius made these points better than I ever could, basically saying there's sometimes where you're just playing for the points, not the win, and that it's often the player that makes the build. But your build should ALWAYS have versatility. Imperials builds don't have to be centered on the same concepts and ideas every time. They have other ships than ISDs

11 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

This doesn't refute my point, you're locked into playing ISDs in a build without versatility.

Vergilius made these points better than I ever could, basically saying there's sometimes where you're just playing for the points, not the win, and that it's often the player that makes the build. But your build should ALWAYS have versatility. Imperials builds don't have to be centered on the same concepts and ideas every time. They have other ships than ISDs

Do you have a non-ISD ship in mind here that you think would work? You have your pick of all of them here; if you have an Arq build you think works vs. aceholes, it would be taken seriously. I can't speak for your meta, but we have good diversity for both factions where I play. It's not overuse of any one Imperial ship that's causing this trend. Rather than saying the Imperials who lose to aceholes are too narrowly focused and all play a certain ship (you don't know this to be true anywhere beyond your meta), why not make suggestions of what approach to take?

4 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Do you have a non-ISD ship in mind here that you think would work? You have your pick of all of them here; if you have an Arq build you think works vs. aceholes, it would be taken seriously. I can't speak for your meta, but we have good diversity for both factions where I play. It's not overuse of any one Imperial ship that's causing this trend.

Don't look for anyone to hand you an Imperial build for this. If you want my advice, drop the ISD and start from scratch with your strategy.

But I'd look at the Arqs and kiting to attract the aces. Then against other builds I'd concentrate on objectives for points. So again: it's really down to the player more than (or as much) as the build

27 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I take it you main Rebels? Either way that's a ridiculous generalization.

And this sentence, right here, is the entire point of the thread. All you need to do is look at the regionals placement to see that Sloane, who was supposed to be an answer specifically for this, isn't working well so far. When one build places first consistently over others, it's not a matter of "get good," unless you believe most Imperial players and most non-acehole Rebels have a lower skill level in this game. So we start by finding a way to counter ace holes specifically, then work on diversifying it. Because being a better player than your acehole opponent isn't a real answer; there will always be better and worse players than you.

I would note that Sloane isn't really an answer to aceholes, but because Wave 6 arrived during the middle of the panic, we all assumed she was. Does she help? Certainly, especially against builds that don't have Jan Ors (only thing that gave me hope against the RCAF). However, she doesn't do anything to deal with GH damage mitigation, and while in theory she allows a bomber strike (really only Defenders have the punch) to cripple a GH for Avenger to clean up, I've never seen that executed, because while Aceholes is a flying circus, good Sloane fleets fighting them have to be flying circuses making fewer mistakes flying faster. And while I can't claim to be the end all be all of Sloane, I must once again suggest watching the Autumn final, where I did exactly what many here have suggested with Sloane, before it was suggested, and got obliterated. If anyone can beat @Roquax at it with a Sloane list, I will yield to you, but I really don't think it's possible.

The imperial CRambo90?

Decimators

If they come out and play then wreck aces. If they dont then just pop some flotillas.

2 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

Don't look for anyone to hand you an Imperial build for this. If you want my advice, drop the ISD and start from scratch with your strategy.

But I'd look at the Arqs and kiting to attract the aces. Then against other builds I'd concentrate on objectives for points. So again: it's really down to the player more than (or as much) as the build

I suppose I misspoke when asking you for a list. My point was that you're reprimanding a bunch of people with skill levels you don't know, flying lists you don't know, for not being skilled enough and flying a certain ship. That's not a substitute for suggestions on what to do. If you do have experience with other Imperial ships succeeding against GH builds, your experiences are especially valuable. Your Arq comment was an interesting contribution. Thank you. How do you plan to punish the aces, once they've been drawn out? Have you tried this?

@Vergilius

Very well said!

A lot of good points, including building for second (or expecting to be given first) - when playing vs aceholes with at least activation parity, one should try to force them to come into a range of unactivated ships and a great point about playing for right score (I think that a lot of important 10-1s happens during later rounds when winning or losing matters much more than a particular score). Also a good observation about imperials and ISDs (notwithstanding the fact that I encountered a fair set of good ISD players, I think that a percentage of lower-skilled players that opt for ISD (or a 2ISD build) is high - and ISDs do require a lot more strategy than just point and shoot).

31 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

But your build should ALWAYS have versatility. Imperials builds don't have to be centered on the same concepts and ideas every time. They have other ships than ISDs

All true and there are good Imperial builds that don't use ISDs, however even ISD builds can be very versatile and very different.

10 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

I would note that Sloane isn't really an answer to aceholes

I'm not convinced that's the case, however it may require a different approach. I didn't test this theory enough, but what if one would go for transports first while forcing Aceholes to leave GH protection to perform a strike?

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

The imperial CRambo90?

Devestators

If they come out and play then wreck aces. If they dont then just pop some flotillas.

I saw what @thecactusman17 Devastator can do and I'm not really looking forward to fly against more than 1

1 minute ago, PT106 said:

I saw what @thecactusman17 Devastator can do and I'm not really looking forward to fly against more than 1

My bad. Meant Decimators

3 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

Don't look for anyone to hand you an Imperial build for this. If you want my advice, drop the ISD and start from scratch with your strategy.

But I'd look at the Arqs and kiting to attract the aces. Then against other builds I'd concentrate on objectives for points. So again: it's really down to the player more than (or as much) as the build

Certainly no one can hand anyone else a build in Armada and expect to do well with it. The Atlanta/South Carolina meta is living proof of that. When I introduced Sloane with I/Q/G at a Store Championship back in May and cleaned up with it, it proliferated, but no one ever had any success using what I did. Every current user swears off Defenders other than Maarek, whereas they are the core of mine. However, that list's direct descendant earned third place at our Regional yesterday, and the descendant of that list cleaned the clocks of my Liberty's at the Battle of the Borderlands tournament in October and got eighth yesterday. If I was given either list, I know I wouldn't have placed top half in it, because each was optimized for its new owner, both of whom I know for a fact took the three chassis's and started over, just as you are suggesting.

However, everyone on here who has fought Aceholes using the Imperials is well aware of how counter-intuitive its playstyle is, especially coming from Imperial bomber tactics that rely on speed and maneuver. We have all tried a variety of different tactics, including Arq spam, Imperial standoff bombers (a lot harder to use successfully without the Major), Imperial standoff ship-to-ship firepower, anything we can think of. But, because we are all players who frequent these forums, we are all aware we are not the end all be all of Armada thought, and we are soliciting different points of view. My most successful dual ISD list took fourth at the Atlanta Regionals uses an augmented version of a build invented by another user on here from the Chicago area I know I never would have invented on my own. So, with all that said, could you please be more specific in your tactical suggestions?

4 minutes ago, PT106 said:

ISDs do require a lot more strategy than just point and shoot.

This. Point and shoot as your only tactical thought is a real quick way to lose.

4 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I'm not convinced that's the case, however it may require a different approach. I didn't test this theory enough, but what if one would go for transports first while forcing Aceholes to leave GH protection to perform a strike?

So. I'll admit my Sloane list is a terrible test case because I use one carrier instead of the three or four others prefer, but I could never hold them at threat. All my experience is either against the RCAF or TM7, but those two scatter the transports to the four winds, and huddle behind the main force respectively. I know I don't deploy in a way that would let me chase the transports without exposing the ISD, so if that could be developed, it could be a way to develop a 7-4, but then you are really questioning why the ISD is involved at all, while that list handles just about any other matchup (one new Madine build to the contrary) with relative ease.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

My bad. Meant Decimators

I know On a serious note, I don't believe it's the case. Decimators alone won't have enough firepower to win a squadron fight, so it will require a pretty specific build (probably a mix of Decimators with something else and maybe Ruthless Strategists or another form of ship's support)

57 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Helpful advice

57 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

This was that odd Classic Ben tournament where I went 1-2 and still won.

57 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Helpful advice

I realize this isn't the time, but are we REALLY not going to talk about this? Classic Ben remains OP, winning tournaments with losing records. Or did you back into the playoffs like the Seahawks did that one year?

9 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

I would note that Sloane isn't really an answer to aceholes, but because Wave 6 arrived during the middle of the panic, we all assumed she was. Does she help? Certainly, especially against builds that don't have Jan Ors (only thing that gave me hope against the RCAF). However, she doesn't do anything to deal with GH damage mitigation, and while in theory she allows a bomber strike (really only Defenders have the punch) to cripple a GH for Avenger to clean up, I've never seen that executed, because while Aceholes is a flying circus, good Sloane fleets fighting them have to be flying circuses making fewer mistakes flying faster. And while I can't claim to be the end all be all of Sloane, I must once again suggest watching the Autumn final, where I did exactly what many here have suggested with Sloane, before it was suggested, and got obliterated. If anyone can beat @Roquax at it with a Sloane list, I will yield to you, but I really don't think it's possible.

That so?

I believe some time ago @thecactusman17 was speaking with a very good friend of mine, Cod, about Sloane and Reeiakan in today's game. Cod, borrowing from @Roquax's demo-lite build, designed a 10 squadron list where the only non-fighters are Jendon and Rhymer. His list is the basis for what I'm currently taking to tournaments, with only slight variations to taste, such as Vector. In flying Cod's list, one can use the speed of Imperial fighters to engage and nibble from all angles the Rebel squadrons, or threaten normally untouchable units like a fleeing Yavaris, thereby breaking the Gallant Haven's protective bubble. It's not a play that wins the squadron war, but it provides an opportunity for the Imperial list's other pieces to inflict some damage and turn momentum.

While testing the GH lists for Worlds, there was a weakness to a single flotilla with jamming fields and a bunch of flakk. Z-95's, TIE Fighters, you name it. Again, the purpose is to break the GH bubble and delay bombing until the final stages of the game.

5 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I realize this isn't the time, but are we REALLY not going to talk about this? Classic Ben remains OP, winning tournaments with losing records. Or did you back into the playoffs like the Seahawks did that one year?

The Classic jokes just never get old. That's what makes them Classics.

9 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

I suppose I misspoke when asking you for a list. My point was that you're reprimanding a bunch of people with skill levels you don't know, flying lists you don't know, for not being skilled enough and flying a certain ship. That's not a substitute for suggestions on what to do. If you do have experience with other Imperial ships succeeding against GH builds, your experiences are especially valuable. Your Arq comment was an interesting contribution. Thank you. How do you plan to punish the aces, once they've been drawn out? Have you tried this?

You're right to call me out on the feeling of reprimanding internet strangers. I can see where I'm coming off like that. It's not my intent though.

And I'd love to offer you some firsthand advice, but I've got a less than one year old who laughs at the concept of free time.

All I got for you is tear down the usual and start over. Don't be afraid to play the long game with a different build, try and lure out the fighters and get points where you can. Utilize your own squadrons to clean up, maybe IG-88 to get past escorts while including Soontir Fel "escorted" to get in cheap shoots. Don't be afraid to go second and get a low-point win.

Good luck, man. If I can get in some play time I'll get back to you

4 minutes ago, Norboats said:

That so?

I believe some time ago @thecactusman17 was speaking with a very good friend of mine, Cod, about Sloane and Reeiakan in today's game. Cod, borrowing from @Roquax's demo-lite build, designed a 10 squadron list where the only non-fighters are Jendon and Rhymer. His list is the basis for what I'm currently taking to tournaments, with only slight variations to taste, such as Vector. In flying Cod's list, one can use the speed of Imperial fighters to engage and nibble from all angles the Rebel squadrons, or threaten normally untouchable units like a fleeing Yavaris, thereby breaking the Gallant Haven's protective bubble. It's not a play that wins the squadron war, but it provides an opportunity for the Imperial list's other pieces to inflict some damage and turn momentum.

While testing the GH lists for Worlds, there was a weakness to a single flotilla with jamming fields and a bunch of flakk. Z-95's, TIE Fighters, you name it. Again, the purpose is to break the GH bubble and delay bombing until the final stages of the game.

If you can do it, all the more power to you. I am not God's gift to either Sloane or even just I/Q/G Sloane, and I am well aware that list has several weaknesses. Can I see the full list?

If its the objective play you dont like

Take Squall and two lambdas. Who is milking fire lanes now?

5 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

If its the objective play you dont like

Take Squall and two lambdas. Who is milking fire lanes now?

I did that with a Sloane list and it was amazing. My Quasar could go wherever it wanted (thanks relay!), and it got some nice 10-1s off. It's really worth picking up and trying.

10 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

If you can do it, all the more power to you. I am not God's gift to either Sloane or even just I/Q/G Sloane, and I am well aware that list has several weaknesses. Can I see the full list?

GSDI: Sloane, Demo, APT, OE

VSD1: Flight Controller, QBT, Expanded Hangar

Goz: Hondo, Vector

Goz: Jamming

Goz: Comms net

Squads: Jendon, Rhymer, Maarek, 3x TIE Fighter, Saber, Mauler, Howl, Black

Obj: MW, Contested, Superior

1 hour ago, Maturin said:

The question is....after you remove GH, do you have enough time to eat through a standard Biggsball defense? I think @thecactusman17 is alluding to not just one layer of resistance, but multiple...

Like Rieekan, Biggs wasn't present in the variants at the Michigan regionals (linky).

And, speaking of, now that we've got the lists from Michigan - Gallant Haven bombers showed up in:

1st and 6th, out of 20, in Georgia.
1st, 4th, and 16th, out of 32, in Michigan.
Not present in Ohio.

So, what did the fleets have in common?

They didn't all field Rieekan, and they didn't all field Jan Ors or Biggs. They brought a whole variety of different objectives and squadrons - some with 2x VCXs, some with Norra, any number of different upgrades on their flotillas. Some spent 30 of their 134 points on VCXs, some brought up to 4 generics, some brought nothing but X/Y/B Wing aces with Jan.

So this archetype ranges from Luke+Wedge+Biggs+Jan Ors under Rieekan (first place in Georgia); to Luke as the only Escort with no Intel under Dodonna (first place in Michigan). Of the 4 higher ranking fleets, they brought 10 different objectives.

No wonder nobody can agree on how to play against them.

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

Like Rieekan, Biggs wasn't present in the variants at the Michigan regionals (linky).

And, speaking of, now that we've got the lists from Michigan - Gallant Haven bombers showed up in:

1st and 6th, out of 20, in Georgia.
1st, 4th, and 16th, out of 32, in Michigan.
Not present in Ohio.

So, what did the fleets have in common?

They didn't all field Rieekan, and they didn't all field Jan Ors or Biggs. They brought a whole variety of different objectives and squadrons - some with 2x VCXs, some with Norra, any number of different upgrades on their flotillas. Some spent 30 of their 134 points on VCXs, some brought up to 4 generics, some brought nothing but X/Y/B Wing aces with Jan.

So this archetype ranges from Luke+Wedge+Biggs+Jan Ors under Rieekan (first place in Georgia); to Luke as the only Escort with no Intel under Dodonna (first place in Michigan). Of the 4 higher ranking fleets, they brought 10 different objectives.

No wonder nobody can agree on how to play against them.

I don’t think it’s the squadrons as much as the synergy of Yavaris, GH, Adar and Toryn. All are huge boosts to the squadron plan and damage output or mitigation. That’s the common factor.