From the Imp side I've beaten it with a Jerry dual ISD (I can't remember if there was a Gozanti in there or not) with a full complement of swarm aces that I brought as a for-fun fleet. We played his minefields. I flew the ISDs like Assault Frigates, circling and daring the fighters to leave the bubble and Haven to get close enough to engage the ISDs.

It was an utter standoff: he couldn't get the fighters close enough to threaten the ISDs without dropping them into range of my return alpha strike. Which he could weather, but to do so would have to position GH close enough to be jumped by the ISDs. He was shuffling mines to try and push them under my ISDs, but couldn't afford to overextend and lose the VCXs as he relied on them for Yavaris relay.

For my part, my ISDs could each weather a round from his squadrons, but if I flew into them it would be two rounds that they were eating, which would mean I'd have to commit to engage his squadrons under cover of GH, which is a fool's errand.

The key to beating the fleet with squadrons--and it is not easy at all--is that you have to have a meaningful ship threat that can reliably kill Gallant Haven without relying on fighter cover to keep it alive. If you can threaten that, you can force him to choose to either bring the squadrons out from the umbrella or lose the umbrella. Not only that, but it requires considerable skill to pull this off as there are a LOT of moving parts that you have to get just right, or you're toast.

3 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

So far, and this isn't to poo-poo on the suggestions here, all the specific counters are Rebels.

If you're a Rebel main and haven't tried playing vs this list archetype, you really need to try doing so.

I agree, I haven't found a particularly reliable imperial hard counter, though I do think a Sloane Avenger can do it... You just have to play very aggressive on the ship side, charge Haven with the ISD, kill it, weather that terrifying bomber alpha while you wait for Zombie Haven to leave the board, and only then jump your squadrons in.

I can't say I've gotten a chance to try this though, so I can't say for sure that it works. I'm also terrible at flying ISDs, so I'm not the best person to try this out. And I also think there's a fair chance of losing the ISD outright, so... There's that too. :/

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

From the Imp side I've beaten it with a Jerry dual ISD (I can't remember if there was a Gozanti in there or not) with a full complement of swarm aces that I brought as a for-fun fleet. We played his minefields. I flew the ISDs like Assault Frigates, circling and daring the fighters to leave the bubble and Haven to get close enough to engage the ISDs.

It was an utter standoff: he couldn't get the fighters close enough to threaten the ISDs without dropping them into range of my return alpha strike. Which he could weather, but to do so would have to position GH close enough to be jumped by the ISDs. He was shuffling mines to try and push them under my ISDs, but couldn't afford to overextend and lose the VCXs as he relied on them for Yavaris relay.

For my part, my ISDs could each weather a round from his squadrons, but if I flew into them it would be two rounds that they were eating, which would mean I'd have to commit to engage his squadrons under cover of GH, which is a fool's errand.

The key to beating the fleet with squadrons--and it is not easy at all--is that you have to have a meaningful ship threat that can reliably kill Gallant Haven without relying on fighter cover to keep it alive. If you can threaten that, you can force him to choose to either bring the squadrons out from the umbrella or lose the umbrella. Not only that, but it requires considerable skill to pull this off as there are a LOT of moving parts that you have to get just right, or you're toast.

Yeah.I can see that if you fly in a very careful way, you can stand off on it, but you need to almost work around yourself to do so.

Something that I think a lot of players don't realize: Yes, Avenger is powerful and yes, Demolisher is powerful. But they're both powerful to lists on both sides, and both have serious threats to them that can be easil fielded by both sides. Trying to beat this particular list archetype with Imperials is like pulling teeth, because imperial fleets depend on that strong opening alpha strike to let them ultimately win the engagement even if it's a fleet designed to grind down the enemy. When that alpha strike is neutralized, there aren't many Imperial tools to regain the upper hand.

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I agree, I haven't found a particularly reliable imperial hard counter, though I do think a Sloane Avenger can do it... You just have to play very aggressive on the ship side, charge Haven with the ISD, kill it, weather that terrifying bomber alpha while you wait for Zombie Haven to leave the board, and only then jump your squadrons in.

I can't say I've gotten a chance to try this though, so I can't say for sure that it works. I'm also terrible at flying ISDs, so I'm not the best person to try this out. And I also think there's a fair chance of losing the ISD outright, so... There's that too. :/

Not to be a downer on this idea, but see Autumn final. I'll admit there were mistakes on my part but not game changers.

The dual JJ idea I want to work. I-1s or -2s?

5 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

The dual JJ idea I want to work. I-1s or -2s?

If I recall correctly it was one of each. Also, full disclosure, the game would've been a wash off my opponent hadn't decided a standoff was boring and broken it in the last round or two, giving me the 6-5.

5 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

If I recall correctly it was one of each. Also, full disclosure, the game would've been a wash off my opponent hadn't decided a standoff was boring and broken it in the last round or two, giving me the 6-5.

Also your opponent was Garm not Rieekan!

6 minutes ago, Brikhause said:

Also your opponent was Garm not Rieekan!

Oh, really? Eh, really don't remember the specifics. It was the same build, either way. Rieekan certainly helps it, but as you know, it's Gallant Haven that holds the whole thing together.

Yeah. Please don’t talk about solutions of your opponent wasn’t running the correct top level list. First of all minefileds isn’t the correct objective. (Unless they were super VCX). The correct ones are usually most wanted and the two fighter point scoring ones. The commander is rieekan.

29 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I agree, I haven't found a particularly reliable imperial hard counter, though I do think a Sloane Avenger can do it... You just have to play very aggressive on the ship side, charge Haven with the ISD, kill it, weather that terrifying bomber alpha while you wait for Zombie Haven to leave the board, and only then jump your squadrons in.

I can't say I've gotten a chance to try this though, so I can't say for sure that it works. I'm also terrible at flying ISDs, so I'm not the best person to try this out. And I also think there's a fair chance of losing the ISD outright, so... There's that too. :/

I believe that 5-activation dual ISD fleet should be able to do it as long as its fitted for this threat, however it will require some good flying. I did practice against Yavaris-based bomber builds multiple times and as long as the threat ranges and activation order is done properly, the fleet should have a good chance.

EDIT: Especially given that double BCC are out.

EDIT2: On the other hand 5 activation Super-ISD with a good support flak including flechette raider may have a better chance.

16 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. Please don’t talk about solutions of your opponent wasn’t running the correct top level list. First of all minefileds isn’t the correct objective. (Unless they were super VCX). The correct ones are usually most wanted and the two fighter point scoring ones. The commander is rieekan.

Lol, minefields is definitely the correct objective. I don't know what you mean by super VCX, but it did have VCXs. If you think otherwise, you've never seen it.

Also, you can feel free to disagree with me on potential solutions, but I'm not going to "not talk about them." I won't say they're a turnkey solution--and in fact have explicitly said that they're hard to use--but I'm not going to not relate relevant examples because my opponent wasn't using the exact build you're afraid of.

The solution I do have was, and continues to be, roundly dismissed by people who've never seen it work. I guarantee that finding a reliable Imperial counter to this will also require something so far outside the norm that it will be dismissed until it's been demonstrated to work. Crazy ideas are going to be what the solution is built on, so I'm gonna keep bringing them up.

10 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I'm not going to not relay relevant examples because my opponent want using the exact build you're afraid of.

Did you bring Jendon though? Can't really use relay without him or a basic Lambda.

27 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. Please don’t talk about solutions of your opponent wasn’t running the correct top level list. First of all minefileds isn’t the correct objective. (Unless they were super VCX). The correct ones are usually most wanted and the two fighter point scoring ones. The commander is rieekan.

I also strong disagree here. There is not one version of this list. The Magnificent Seven flies nothing like the RCAF, don't have the same Commander or the same objectives but are both definitely Aceholes. Differences among builds that might make a difference can be discussed, but there are at least three versions that equally dominant.

Do we acknowledge Demolisher as the original gallant haven counter? Or are we not dicussing that imperial weapon anymore?

7 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Do we acknowledge Demolisher as the original gallant haven counter? Or are we not dicussing that imperial weapon anymore?

Demolisher doesn't have the health to survive a round of counterfire from the squadrons with the proper upgrades. If it did the usual first-last shenanigans would work and we wouldn't be talking about this list.

Just now, thecactusman17 said:

Demolisher doesn't have the health to survive a round of counterfire from the squadrons with the proper upgrades. If it did the usual first-last shenanigans would work and we wouldn't be talking about this list.

Who cares if it survives?

9 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Do we acknowledge Demolisher as the original gallant haven counter? Or are we not dicussing that imperial weapon anymore?

Going back to wave-2, I don't think Brik ever saw Demolisher as the original Gallant Haven counter. Between objectives, Rieekan, and so forth, one was always going to bag more points out of Demolisher than could be gotten in return.

15 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Going back to wave-2, I don't think Brik ever saw Demolisher as the original Gallant Haven counter. Between objectives, Rieekan, and so forth, one was always going to bag more points out of Demolisher than could be gotten in return.

In theory what you could do is drop GH with Demo for an outright trade, while your squadron force sits on it's haunches and waits for Zombie Haven to go away, then jump the squadrons.

In practice, I've never seen the opponent have enough time to wait for GH to go away. But I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility to make it happen.

49 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. Please don’t talk about solutions of your opponent wasn’t running the correct top level list. First of all minefileds isn’t the correct objective. (Unless they were super VCX). The correct ones are usually most wanted and the two fighter point scoring ones. The commander is rieekan.

I wouldn't say Minefields is an "incorrect" objective (what would that even really mean?) but Superior Positions and maybe even Sensor Net seem like better, safer choices in terms of raw points count. There will be variations, and in this case it doesn't seem to be critical to Ard's point. (That said, I don't want to take 2 ISDs and have a draw because nobody can engage.)

As for countering the list, I've been working on this. It's untested, though. The idea is that they're either letting you go first with 5 activations and TS to weather a strike on approach to GH, or letting you sit back and make them come to you. Obviously there are more specific changes one could make (RBDs over ECM, fit Kallus in somewhere, etc.)

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=150727&key=1393646d6721c1a0979091dc3f9ebd0c

From what I understand you need another ship to break the flotilla cage before Demo makes its run...thus placing two ships at risk, not just Demo?

21 minutes ago, Maturin said:

From what I understand you need another ship to break the flotilla cage before Demo makes its run...thus placing two ships at risk, not just Demo?

Speaking for myself, I rarely see Aceholes using their flotillas as blockers. What I do see are players cagey enough to hold enough bombers in reserve to obliterate Demo during that intermediary squadron phase.

Thinking about it, I would probably try something like this

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=150738&key=e3f6fd6b8145f99925516e527a116fb4

Ship loadouts (especially ISD loadout) can vary, but this is a general idea.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

Who cares if it survives?

Because at best, you've traded even with that particular model. AF2B with just Adar Talon and Gallant Haven (pretty common setup that I've seen) is 90 points. If Rieekan's on it, he probably invested points in Defensive Retrofits to ensure that it won't die to a single Demolisher attack. So it won't even have traded in most cases. And this is assuming that you didn't just plop down in range of multiple B-Wings or similar high damage bombers with BCC and/or Toryn.

Again, the primary strength of this list is that it is extraordinarily resistant to alpha strikes.

I was going to save this until after I had a chance to actually test it out, but I have been working on an "outside the box" fleet that I think would do very well against the Aceholes. For discussion / illustration purposes, we'll assume a version of the Aceholes that Blail described in the OP.

Thrawn's Art of War (399 pts)

1 • Imperial II-class Star Destroyer - Imperial-class Star Destroyer (120) - Grand Admiral Thrawn (32) - Damage Control Officer (5) - Redundant Shields (8) - Leading Shots (4) - XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Total : 175
2 • Gozanti-class Cruisers - Gozanti (23) - Minister Tua (2) - Slicer Tools (7) - Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6) - Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Total : 45
3 • Raider I-class corvette - Raider class corvette (44) - Agent Kallus (3) - Ordnance Experts (4) - Flechette Torpedoes (3) - Instigator (4)
• Total : 58
4 • Raider I-class corvette - Raider class corvette (44) - Hondo Ohnaka (2) - DarthVader (3) - External Racks (3)
• Total : 52
5 • Whisper TIE Phantom Squadron - TIE Phantom (20)
• Total : 20
6 • TIE Bomber Squadron - TIE Bomber (9)
• Total : 9
7 • TIE Bomber Squadron - TIE Bomber (9)
• Total : 9
8 • TIE Bomber Squadron - TIE Bomber (9)
• Total : 9
9 • TIE Bomber Squadron - TIE Bomber (9)
• Total : 9
10 • Valen Rudor TIE Fighter Squadron - TIE Fighter (13)
• Total : 13

Objectives: Advanced Gunnery (?), Contested Outpost, Superior Positions

The concept behind this list is that most fleets succeed by using an integrated combination of ships, squadrons, and upgrades to successfully defeat an enemy. Each fleet is meant to be a well-oiled machine, with all of the parts working in concert. This list is built to throw a spanner in the works and make enemy fleets fall apart due to the disruption. It makes use of Thrawn to enhance the power of the ISD, which is probably the most lethal combat platform in the game.

This list grew out of some daydreaming about how to use tractor beams more effectively, which lead me to the idea of using the Gozanti loadout above to sideline MC30s and Glads. Since they are small ships, the flotilla can slow them down, then use slicer tools to keep them from using Nav commands to return to speed. I loved the idea of a flotilla keeping flanking torpedo vessels from getting into engagement range until turn 6. That led me to the bigger idea of breaking apart an enemy's entire plan of attack, so I started adding different items that would interrupt different fleet styles. The Vader boarding team allows the list to eliminate a "lynchpin" upgrade like Yavaris, Gallant Haven, or Toryn Far; Kallus and flechette torpedoes are there to disrupt squadrons and aces; redundant shields and DCO are there to blunt swarm-style fire and special crit effects; bombers are there to break corvette-class ships; and Whisper is there to be an obnoxious jerk.

Against the aceholes that Blail describes, you could disrupt the key elements without too much trouble. Instigator would move in with the bombers/Rudor giving him close cover. If the aces try to engage, they'll get bogged down by the bombers, which will take too long to chew through to prevent Instigator from locking them down with flechettes. The gozanti can help buy Instigator time by slicing off Yavaris' squad commands, and the other raider swings in to either remove the Yavaris title completely, or to dispose of Adar / Toryn / BCC whatever.

Once the combo is broken, the ISD can move in to annihilate the enemy fleet. I would bank at least two engineering dials with Thrawn, possibly keeping a squadron dial as the third. I would also bank an engineering token to ensure I could get at least one turn of using a token+dial on the ISD (possibly two, depending on when I can time the use of Hondo). Combined with the redundant shields, this should more than compensate for any fire the two rebel frigates can provide.

It would require some delicate handling, but this fleet offers too many ways to break the Aceholes combo for the rebels to prevent it. And without being able to leverage the rebel bombers, the aceholes list is very, very vulnerable to the guns of an ISD.

2 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

Because at best, you've traded even with that particular model. AF2B with just Adar Talon and Gallant Haven (pretty common setup that I've seen) is 90 points. If Rieekan's on it, he probably invested points in Defensive Retrofits to ensure that it won't die to a single Demolisher attack. So it won't even have traded in most cases. And this is assuming that you didn't just plop down in range of multiple B-Wings or similar high damage bombers with BCC and/or Toryn.

Again, the primary strength of this list is that it is extraordinarily resistant to alpha strikes.

Trading even at a slight loss is worth it if it allows you to break a key part of the enemy defense.

The question is....after you remove GH, do you have enough time to eat through a standard Biggsball defense? I think @thecactusman17 is alluding to not just one layer of resistance, but multiple...

Taking this train of thought a little further...should the primary strategy to defeating this build be to kill the squadrons first, or kill the ships first?

Killing squadrons will require some mechanism outside of the standard alpha strike. Flak is ineffective while in the GH bubble, so that leaves us alternative damage effects, like Mauler, Ten, and Cluster bombs (?!?!?!). I haven't thought this all the way through but I'm not sure that's going to be enough . Piling on a ton of damage at once is another route, but it's a sisyphean task and all the while your own antisquad power is being degraded by the aces.

I guess that leaves killing ships....and many others have already covered that far. Hmmmmmm......

14 minutes ago, scipio83 said:

I was going to save this until after I had a chance to actually test it out, but I have been working on an "outside the box" fleet that I think would do very well against the Aceholes. For discussion / illustration purposes, we'll assume a version of the Aceholes that Blail described in the OP.

Thrawn's Art of War (399 pts)

1 • Imperial II-class Star Destroyer - Imperial-class Star Destroyer (120) - Grand Admiral Thrawn (32) - Damage Control Officer (5) - Redundant Shields (8) - Leading Shots (4) - XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Total : 175
2 • Gozanti-class Cruisers - Gozanti (23) - Minister Tua (2) - Slicer Tools (7) - Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams (6) - Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Total : 45
3 • Raider I-class corvette - Raider class corvette (44) - Agent Kallus (3) - Ordnance Experts (4) - Flechette Torpedoes (3) - Instigator (4)
• Total : 58
4 • Raider I-class corvette - Raider class corvette (44) - Hondo Ohnaka (2) - DarthVader (3) - External Racks (3)
• Total : 52
5 • Whisper TIE Phantom Squadron - TIE Phantom (20)
• Total : 20
6 • TIE Bomber Squadron - TIE Bomber (9)
• Total : 9
7 • TIE Bomber Squadron - TIE Bomber (9)
• Total : 9
8 • TIE Bomber Squadron - TIE Bomber (9)
• Total : 9
9 • TIE Bomber Squadron - TIE Bomber (9)
• Total : 9
10 • Valen Rudor TIE Fighter Squadron - TIE Fighter (13)
• Total : 13

Objectives: Advanced Gunnery (?), Contested Outpost, Superior Positions

The concept behind this list is that most fleets succeed by using an integrated combination of ships, squadrons, and upgrades to successfully defeat an enemy. Each fleet is meant to be a well-oiled machine, with all of the parts working in concert. This list is built to throw a spanner in the works and make enemy fleets fall apart due to the disruption. It makes use of Thrawn to enhance the power of the ISD, which is probably the most lethal combat platform in the game.

This list grew out of some daydreaming about how to use tractor beams more effectively, which lead me to the idea of using the Gozanti loadout above to sideline MC30s and Glads. Since they are small ships, the flotilla can slow them down, then use slicer tools to keep them from using Nav commands to return to speed. I loved the idea of a flotilla keeping flanking torpedo vessels from getting into engagement range until turn 6. That led me to the bigger idea of breaking apart an enemy's entire plan of attack, so I started adding different items that would interrupt different fleet styles. The Vader boarding team allows the list to eliminate a "lynchpin" upgrade like Yavaris, Gallant Haven, or Toryn Far; Kallus and flechette torpedoes are there to disrupt squadrons and aces; redundant shields and DCO are there to blunt swarm-style fire and special crit effects; bombers are there to break corvette-class ships; and Whisper is there to be an obnoxious jerk.

Against the aceholes that Blail describes, you could disrupt the key elements without too much trouble. Instigator would move in with the bombers/Rudor giving him close cover. If the aces try to engage, they'll get bogged down by the bombers, which will take too long to chew through to prevent Instigator from locking them down with flechettes. The gozanti can help buy Instigator time by slicing off Yavaris' squad commands, and the other raider swings in to either remove the Yavaris title completely, or to dispose of Adar / Toryn / BCC whatever.

Once the combo is broken, the ISD can move in to annihilate the enemy fleet. I would bank at least two engineering dials with Thrawn, possibly keeping a squadron dial as the third. I would also bank an engineering token to ensure I could get at least one turn of using a token+dial on the ISD (possibly two, depending on when I can time the use of Hondo). Combined with the redundant shields, this should more than compensate for any fire the two rebel frigates can provide.

It would require some delicate handling, but this fleet offers too many ways to break the Aceholes combo for the rebels to prevent it. And without being able to leverage the rebel bombers, the aceholes list is very, very vulnerable to the guns of an ISD.

A few things:

1: Blail isn't the OP, I am. Frankly, that's why people are even talking, because everyone knows Blail's opinion on the subject and that it can't be changed

2: I see a few major flaws in your list design for dealing with this archetype, and it makes me thing that you haven't seen it played. Firstly, those Raiders are dead the moment they get within squadron range of their targets. Second, your bombers can't actually damage the enemy squads if they stay in range of Gallant Haven, because their 1 damage will be immediately removed by the GH effect. Finally, with only 4 ships, you'll be leaving one or more enemy carriers to activate squadrons after you've moved into position - I haven't seen any variation on this archetype with fewer than 4 ships, usually 5. That's generally about 6-10 attacks (2 from Yavaris for 3 squads, another 3-4 from Gallant Haven, and one potential bonus from Adar Talon) before you attack. A Raider has only a maximum of 7 health (Motti for 5 HP + 2 shields) before it is destroyed, and just the Yavaris has a high probability of achieving that in one round of squadron activations, then its own attacks. Again, you're attempting to alpha strike a list that is explicitly designed to neuter alpha strike efforts.