4 hours ago, Parkdaddy said:

I used to think he was a jerk until I met him IRL. Then I thought he was a total creeper (Seriously though, the first time we met he was standing right up on me from behind while we were waiting in line for a regional registration).

This is usually how the elusive @Ardaedhel approaches his prey. It is a truly foul thing to behold.....

28 minutes ago, moodswing5537 said:

This is usually how the elusive @Ardaedhel approaches his prey. It is a truly foul thing to behold.....

It is. But just give him a Pelta to the face, and he’ll back off. He’ll also ask you for video proof of him getting a Pelta to the face later when it gets brought up in a public forum, and then pretend like he doesn’t know what happened to the video that he recorded. #neverforget

1 minute ago, Parkdaddy said:

It is. But just give him a Pelta to the face, and he’ll back off. He’ll also ask you for video proof of him getting a Pelta to the face later when it gets brought up in a public forum, and then pretend like he doesn’t know what happened to the video that he recorded. #neverforget

...

This being a family friendly forum, I will NOT make the obvious joke about ard and facials....dang it! I guess I did anyway....

55 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

To me it is pretty simple, if going straight at it is a sure way to loose then the only other option is to get around to the side of it.

I would like to reemphasize that it might be worth looking into objectives that greatly punish a lack of board presence as well.

Regardless of if the 2-3 list is traveling fast or slow, it tends to stay in a relatively tight formation, it has to in order to overlap the effects that make the fleet to efficient, namely Torryn Farr, BCC, Yavaris/FC activation range, and GH damage mitigation bubble, possibly a Jamming Field as well but that is often over kill with the amount of braces available to a Jan supported hero wing.

Because they want these buffs to overlap these fleets fly in close formation, an objective such as Intel Sweep or Fire Lanes is tough for a list like this to play and maintain this fleet cohesion specially if you mix in a Stratigic of your own to pull the closest tokens away from them.

My suspicion is that if given the choice between Fire Lanes, Intel Sweep, and Most Wanted, ant looking at a Strategic squad on the other side, you might even get to play Most Wanted.

Opinion question, When attacking a 2-3 list, most people want to kill GH so they can actually fight squadrons, but I am often inclined to go after Yavaris as my top priority. That ship is what ups the offensive power of the fleet to a point where it can chew up ISD's and other large base ships in short order. If I can get an angle, I would rather get shots on Yavaris since it will go down easier and lower the threat level of the enemy counter attack. Many a good ISD has gone down to a Last/First from Yavaris and her B-Wing assistants.

Side note: FFG If you are reading this, please just change the wording on GH such that the damage reduction happens before defense tokens are spent... this does not invalidate the title or ship, but stops the complete negation of damage packets that are less than 3 (which I think is the reason GH is so dominant), it also allows 2 damage to be done through a brace token with 4 hits instead of 5. Some will argue that this invalidates GH, but it does not, it only reduces the title's effectiveness when paired with a Brace token, and does not change how it interacts with generic squads. The title is so ubiquitous that it probably warrants a change. GH is taken in to high a % relative to the number of Assault frigates taken to not be looked at closely. If a strong fighter alpha strike had a reliable chance of killing 1-2 of these squads, paired with the new Gov. Pryce card to allow a First/Last fighter double tap, the list would not be as strong or safe to run as it is. loosing 2-4 key squads is crippling to a list like this.

A change like this would cause this list type to risk losing a few key squads and being in a ship-to-ship shot out that it is unprepared to win. Every fleet must have some reason to fear defeat, but most of these 2-3 lists don't unless they make a huge error. I hate one sided, victory by overwhelmingly dominating one aspect of the game while ignoring the others lists on principle because they often lead to one sided, unfun games for the opponent, and are much safer and easier to play than hybrid fleets that mix squadron and ship fire power but do not over commit in either direction. Mixed fleets are more flexible and create more fair and enjoyable games for all. Overload lists can often win at the list building stage based on the match up. If the list is winning for you or giving you that much of an advantage does that actually say much about the players who do well with overload lists?

I think you're absolutely right about the bolded part. Taking out Yavaris is so much more critical than taking out Gallant Haven. One of my many mistakes against @MasterShake2at the Atlanta Regionals was taking out one of his unarmed stations instead of focusing on Yavaris.

I love, love, love the underlined suggestion. I hate rolling 2 hits 2 accuracies and watching Jan brace to 1 so they take no damage.

To anybody making @Space_Cowboy17regret posting KNOCK IT OFF! He's my arch-nemesis not yours get your own.

48 minutes ago, svelok said:

I think there's a few significant differences between Armada and some of the other miniature wargames that prevent that sort of thing.

Unlike, say 40k, where owning everything for every faction would be how many thousands of dollars, owning everything in Armada is like $500 or something. (Obviously more as you buy duplicates, triplicates, etc - I've seen the "how much have you spent" thread ). Most, if not all, of the top players play both sides; including most (if not all...) of the same people who've run the GH/Yavaris combo to great success.

Further, I think the online/vassal community is far more impactful on Armada's overall player base, than is the case for other games. I'm not sure what to chalk this up to - smaller IRL community, disproportionately large vassal community? More competitive than casual focus of the game? Better information/skill dispersal from vassal players to everyone else? - and it's just a sort of feeling I get, not anything I have proof of. But that seems to prevent some of the meta stagnation you might see otherwise, I think.

You might have misunderstood me.

I don’t care for the want of a change in game mechanics (including new elements) just because really good players run a build really well.

Running Rieken Aces isn’t an auto-win. It takes skilled and practiced players to get the most out of it. That doesn’t spell a need for a change in game design for me. However, some aspects of this thread SEEM to want a silver bullet for it, which from the times I’ve seen that start in game design quickly starts to unravel the whole thing into something predictable and boring.

I’d rather not see Armada go that direction. This is a really sweet game.

1 hour ago, Megatronrex said:

I think you're absolutely right about the bolded part. Taking out Yavaris is so much more critical than taking out Gallant Haven. One of my many mistakes against @MasterShake2at the Atlanta Regionals was taking out one of his unarmed stations instead of focusing on Yavaris.

I love, love, love the underlined suggestion. I hate rolling 2 hits 2 accuracies and watching Jan brace to 1 so they take no damage.

To anybody making @Space_Cowboy17regret posting KNOCK IT OFF! He's my arch-nemesis not yours get your own.

I agree, if you make the GH effect take place before defense tokens that may be a soft enough debuff that other squadron lists could find a crack in the armor. Watching 4 damage turn into 1 is just soulcrushing at times.

On 12/11/2017 at 0:21 PM, Snipafist said:

In my current silly-but-still-seems-to-keep-winning-for-some-reason 4 Raiders and friends (I'd call it the Magnificent Seven, but that name's already taken, and The Seven Samurai seems a bit arrogant), they're all running External Racks because the fleet's heavy hitter is Demolisher but I need enough available burst damage to handle threats elsewhere if I need to crunch through a lot of hull quickly.
...

The Seven Deadly Sins

28 minutes ago, OgRib said:

The Seven Deadly Sins

The Seven Dwarves

7 Spanish Angels

7 days of the week

7 colors of the rainbow

7 seas

7 summits

7 wonders

That's all I got. I think @OgRibhad the best suggestion with the 7 deadly sins.

4 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

7 Spanish Angels

7 days of the week

7 colors of the rainbow

7 seas

7 summits

7 wonders

That's all I got. I think @OgRibhad the best suggestion with the 7 deadly sins.

7 blunders? The greatest game ever?

7 “What’s in the box?”

5 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

You might have misunderstood me.

I don’t care for the want of a change in game mechanics (including new elements) just because really good players run a build really well.

Running Rieken Aces isn’t an auto-win. It takes skilled and practiced players to get the most out of it. That doesn’t spell a need for a change in game design for me. However, some aspects of this thread SEEM to want a silver bullet for it, which from the times I’ve seen that start in game design quickly starts to unravel the whole thing into something predictable and boring.

I’d rather not see Armada go that direction. This is a really sweet game.

That's not what I meant at all.

Rather, I don't think Armada has as many people who want silver bullets as other games do.

5 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

You might have misunderstood me.

I don’t care for the want of a change in game mechanics (including new elements) just because really good players run a build really well.

Running Rieken Aces isn’t an auto-win. It takes skilled and practiced players to get the most out of it. That doesn’t spell a need for a change in game design for me. However, some aspects of this thread SEEM to want a silver bullet for it, which from the times I’ve seen that start in game design quickly starts to unravel the whole thing into something predictable and boring.

I’d rather not see Armada go that direction. This is a really sweet game.

I totally agree, and hope I didn’t come off as wanting such a solution. A lot of the discussion is about using what we have (slicers, auto-damage, flechettes, etc.), because you’re completely right that being innovative with fleet builds and strategies could offer a solution yet. That said, if there’s nothing on the fleet building side of things that offers an edge (not at all an obvious conclusion yet), that’s troubling. Most fleets have a bad matchup or two. The same as a silver bullet, a high skill ceiling list flown by skilled players with no bad matchups is also potentially going to hurt the game. @ForceSensitive mentioned, as an ace player, he believed aces were a factor in killing a lot of his meta. When the Empire’s toys got out of hand, FFG nerfed them (Rhymer, Demo.) I trust them to take any necessary steps here, which is why I’m not too fired up about a nerf either way. We’ll get it if and only if it’s needed. Just my two cents.

6 hours ago, bleachorange said:

I agree, if you make the GH effect take place before defense tokens that may be a soft enough debuff that other squadron lists could find a crack in the armor. Watching 4 damage turn into 1 is just soulcrushing at times.

Here is my take! If GH rules change to where damage reduction is applied before brace happens then you might as well see the assault Frigate as non-existent! It costs to much for what it does and the GH title is an expensive title. Not worth 8 points and not worth the AF mk2 tax imo with that change. Especially, Not when you have Sloane scatter aces that now theoretically can alpha strike twice against such a list with no retaliation. the GH is probably the one few things that is keeping Sloane from being a rock star.

The other point is if you hate your 2 hits and and accuracies being turned into no damage then WTF are you doing attacking squadrons in the GH bubble. Especially if you only have 4 blue dice. You know the average roll will be 2 hits.

Instead Draw the squadrons out threaten the other ships. Then go toe to toe with the squadrons. If your opponent doesn’t draw them out of the bubble make him pay further. This is a game akin to chess not X-wing and sometimes you have to set the pieces in place to create the trap.

The reason I and other players like me are skilled at this list especially against imperials is because imperial players continually do the same thing against me. Try to alpha with the squadrons. But then are shocked when they don’t do enough damage and I retaliate with (ideally) a GH/yavaris combo!

This is the very definition of insanity in that imperial players are doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. The problem is that they can get away with this typical tactic against imperial builds and also against most rebel builds. This is the reason why I created this list, because you have to think differently against it as it throws off the typical tempo of a normal game. And a lot of people are not practiced at playing against such a list nor with It.

In all honesty I have a harder time against skilled rebel players just because those players tend to put more finesse in their tactics. But a rebel player has to learn finesse with their units because by their very nature they don’t have the fast squadrons and hard hitting ships that imps have. So by default rebel players are able to play against the GH list and versions like it a little easier.

The list is a brick wall and so coming at it and charging head first is going to hurt. So take down any wall by removing a few parts of it first. Then strike once the structure is weakened.

With that being said I have been alpha striked by Sloan hard and lost two key ace squadrons from it all in the GH bubble, had it not been the fact that I still had GH and yavaris to counter with before the next turn I would have lost the game big. This is why things like Gov Pryce has me very weary.

Also note that when I talk about finesse play I am not exactly talking about better/more skilled play. There is a time and place for every type of tactic and play style. Learning to be flexible and adapting to both your required play style and your opponent’s is part of the game. Rebel tactics require finesse in order to use their ships properly. So by their very nature of their units they have an easier time learning to play against my list. While imp players don’t get as much practice at those sort of tactics because often the game does not require them to use those tactics so they have a harder time against it.

So the solution is simple when playing against a GH list as an imperial player! Think like a rebel!

Solid post @Brikhause

Having played a few Sloan lists in the last two weeks and having seen how they tend to perform in our area in tournaments, then I agree with the general sentiment that perhaps GH is the one thing keeping Sloan from running away from the game, and if a Sloan alpha right now is bad, Govenor Pryce threatens some very scary squadron activations. We don't know what else there is in the wave to help counter Pryce, but she opens up some different fleet archetypes and strategies from what we've seen.

11 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Solid post @Brikhause

Having played a few Sloan lists in the last two weeks and having seen how they tend to perform in our area in tournaments, then I agree with the general sentiment that perhaps GH is the one thing keeping Sloan from running away from the game, and if a Sloan alpha right now is bad, Govenor Pryce threatens some very scary squadron activations. We don't know what else there is in the wave to help counter Pryce, but he opens up some different fleet archetypes and strategies from what we've seen.

*She. Pryce is female.

30 minutes ago, geek19 said:

*She. Pryce is female.

You know I love you, man

In not sure how I feel about the proposition of nerfing GH. On the one hand, I do think it's one of the key enabling factors that is putting the lists consistently in the top ranks. On the other, Brikhause is right that even changing it to -1 damage before brace is too harsh. I don't know how you could possibly shut down this title directly without completely killing it off. It's already on a fairly expensive platform, a fairly unwieldy platform (vis a vis stomping on squadrons mid-engagement), has the smallest possible range (could change it to "within" I suppose), and is "only" one damage.

Hall Monitor Darth Vader, or HMDV as I'm hereby christening it, has a chance to counter it, but even that's a rough proposition because of timing issues: you have to fly something right into the jaws of death to even have a chance at pulling him off against this.

I think it might be another component of the combo that has to suffer. Personally, I see this as a confluence of factors, some more critical than others: Jan, Rieekan, Yavaris, escort, Gallant Haven, Flight Commander, and FCT all play roles of varying criticality in the combo (other things are important too, but I'd argue that these are the elements that are making this both unbreakable and strongly retributive). Options I'd put forth for consideration:

* Errata the timing of FC to something like "while executing a maneuver, after the Move Ship step." This would force the squadron command to come before FCT and deny the Yavaris shuffle-then-doubletap. This is a nerf to FC/FCT overall, but hits Yavaris the hardest by far.

* Errata the Yavaris title to append "during your ship activation" to the end of the card. This has a similar, but more targeted effect on the Yavaris shuffle specifically, and forces the squadrons out of the bubble unless GH is also in immediate danger. Also significantly reduces the Yavaris threat range.

* Introduce better anti-squadron defensive retrofits. I am convinced that this is what Early Warning _____________ is, and can't wait for it.

* Reduce Jan's unique effect to distance 1. This places her under direct threat from Snipe barring nearly-perfect execution while also increasing the skill demands and opportunity for mistakes.

Personally, I'd be okay with seeing the Yavaris errata. FC/FCT is currently a virtual auto-include on the ship, which I don't like on principle. Furthermore, that title is easily misinterpreted by new players, so it could use clarification anyway. It's also one of the most commonly-appearing rebel ships right now, so it's not in particular danger of being killed off even with this.

That said, I don't really advocate for anything until we've seen the impact of Early Warning _______ and HMDV on the meta. If that doesn't do it, at that point I can get on board with some balance tuning against this list.

I honestly want to hold on any nerfs until we see what wave 7 brings. And at least a year after that so people have time to explore its possibilities.

2 minutes ago, Brikhause said:

I honestly want to hold on any nerfs until we see what wave 7 brings. And at least a year after that so people have time to explore its possibilities.

You would.

6 minutes ago, Brikhause said:

I honestly want to hold on any nerfs until we see what wave 7 brings. And at least a year after that so people have time to explore its possibilities.

Out of curiosity do you play exclusively aceholes? I know a few players who play nothing but this archetype and I think that could exacerbate some of the frustrations people have with facing these types of lists

8 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Out of curiosity do you play exclusively aceholes? I know a few players who play nothing but this archetype and I think that could exacerbate some of the frustrations people have with facing these types of lists

The entire time I played armada, no. At a store championship or higher tournament likely a variation. It is my go to list that I like to fly because I learned to fly it.

But I’ll pull out other lists and play around from time to time.

It is not something I play against newer players casually unless I feel they can handle it.

It seems like the hall monitor of death could team up well on a raider with Pryce to guarantee that GH could be scrubbed without pesky fighters double tapping you to death with yavaris. Just bank a token and use a dial on the appropriate turn to jump from speed 2 to 4, then activate first with the squadron command, spray some flack at the offending xwings and fly off into the void singing a happy song.

if there's one thing about gallant haven, it's very predictable where it's going to be, usually slow rolling at speed 1, 2 tops. Otherwise it outruns it's fighter screen and gets treated like a piñata.

20 minutes ago, mhd said:

It seems like the hall monitor of death could team up well on a raider with Pryce to guarantee that GH could be scrubbed without pesky fighters double tapping you to death with yavaris. Just bank a token and use a dial on the appropriate turn to jump from speed 2 to 4, then activate first with the squadron command, spray some flack at the offending xwings and fly off into the void singing a happy song.

if there's one thing about gallant haven, it's very predictable where it's going to be, usually slow rolling at speed 1, 2 tops. Otherwise it outruns it's fighter screen and gets treated like a piñata.

So like @Ardaedhel will tell you I rarely ever fly that ship or any of my ships in the list slower than 2.

I will deploy and start off the bat at speed 3 in nearly every game and usually I remain at speed 3 through at least 2/3’s of the game. The squadrons keep up just fine this way.

Now I do this precisely for being unpredicatable as you state. At speed 3 I have way more options of movement, that includes slowing down. So it makes it harder to pin my ships down. And if I don’t have a token or if I ever need to do a speed 1 maneuver I just ram a flotilla or an enemy ship.

Now I do like the raider/hall monitor Vader/and Pryce combo. Problem is Pryce only works with medium and large ships.

Now if you excuse me I am going to be quiet now so I don’t give any more of my secrets away.

I would think that you'd use the Hall Monitor for a Kuat (fake) Boarding Troopers. Your squadron value is bad (and should feel bad!) but you're concerned about just pushing damage through, hence whatever ordnance upgrade (ACMs, its gonna be ACMs unless youve got a very good reason, because double arcing with those is gonna HURT, assuming you can get it off...). It's a more aggressive ISD-I, in my completely rational and heavily Imperial-based (I'M JOKING) opinion.

But much like ABT, it'll be a "when you need it/want it, you'll want it" to knock off Gallant Haven, Admo, Lando, opposing ACMs, opposing Pryces/Bail Organas, opposing Boarding Troopers/ECMs, etc. It'll be something you can load up early game, but you want to be right in something's face with your Kuat, so you're just going to want to end whatever you can with it, and Hall Monitor Vader will help kill whatever defensive tech/upgrade you need dead. If you want to launch a fighter strike with Pryce, launch it, follow up with Vader blowing up the Haven title (it's a "whenever your reveal a command") and then your squadrons (that you command that turn) ACTUALLY getting to do damage to the Haven'ed fighters.

Leading Shots, Vader, ACMs, Pryce and ECMs to taste, and WhyAmIHelpingYouImperialsKillMeFaster....

Never mind! Ignore entire response! I'm just a dumb Rebel who doesn't know anything about Imp ships! Speed 4 is the only way to run Raiders, they're terrible! Triple Interdictor lists are the wave of the future! Demo OP! Other typical Rebel whining!