So I and many players I know are dealing with a scourge of very similar lists that should be familiar to users on this forum. Some players say they are overpowered (looking at you @Blail Blerg) and some are saying they are very defeatable. However, very few specific counters have been offered especially counters designed for competition play.

The current meta pick typically looks something like this:

Assault Frigate 2B

• General Rieekan
• Adar Talon or Toryn Farr (Swaps with GR-75 below)
• Flight Controllers or Boosted Comms to taste
• Gallant Haven

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate

• Flight Commander
• Fighter Coordination Teams
• Yavaris

GR-75 Transports

• Toryn Farr or Adar Talon (swaps with AF2b above)
• Comms Net if Toryn, BCC if Adar

GR-75 Transports

• Ashoka Tano
• Comms Net

GR-75 Transports

• Leia
• Comms Net

Squadrons:

• Jan Ors
• Luke Skywalker
• Wedge Antilles
• Keyan Farlander or Ten Numb
• Norra Wexler or Gold Squadron
• 1-2 generic B-Wings or Dagger Squad
• Frequent substitutions are all three X-Wing aces and both B-Wing aces instead of generics

Objectives are chosen such that it is impossible to approach or engage the fleet or the objective without being engaged to most or all of the unactivated squadrons.

It's been over a year with this pick, and I'm frankly at a point where I'm just about to give up. While the ability of this list to fight itself is well proven, other responses especially on the Imperial side are less effective or involve specializing your list to only combat this singular list type. In competition settings, this is having an adverse effect on list design where this list is either played, or sufficiently avoided throughout the event to move to the top positions. This has remained the case even after the Errata nerfs to Rieekan and BCC.

I keep hearing that players are finding this list beatable, but I'm not hearing specifics on what is being used to do so. You can't tie the squadron component down without destroying all the escorts almost simultaneously (thanks to Jan) and you can't assault the ships without taking severe damage from the squadron component. The 5 activation variant also doesn't let most fleets activate after all Rebel ships have gone.

While not as absurdly durable as the pre-nerf Rieekan variation, it does present the opposition with the same issue: most squadron superiority solutions, especially for Imperials, depend on alpha-striking threatening targets off the board but this list is nearly immune to alpha striking.

I offer two contributions to his thread:

The sensible contribution:

USE TIE BOMBERS FOR GOODNESS SAKE. If you cannot beat them at the squadron game then stop bothering to do so!

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=143503&key=70ecc46d1bc3db1089559e7223d42872

The unhelpful contribution:

These lists havent even found their true power yet.

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=150510

Rieeken aces are very alpha resistant. If your fleet relies on a devastating alpha, you're going to be behind the gun. The matches that are the closest for me and the ones where I see the most potential to lose is lists that are fine going second and conservatively running the mission.

The problem with Rieeken, from my perspective, is less Rieeken himself than his interaction with a super alpha-heavy meta.

Everybody seems to be constantly searching for a better first-last list and I'm sitting here like "Oh thank god, easy points"

1 minute ago, MasterShake2 said:

Rieeken aces are very alpha resistant. If your fleet relies on a devastating alpha, you're going to be behind the gun. The matches that are the closest for me and the ones where I see the most potential to lose is lists that are fine going second and conservatively running the mission.

The problem with Rieeken, from my perspective, is less Rieeken himself than his interaction with a super alpha-heavy meta.

Ok, so I'll lead with that I agree here. Rieekan is like punching a brick wall, especially when it's the Red Squadron variant you prefer. The issue with going second is building an Imperial list that wants to go second. Many are fine with it, but it's much harder for the Imperials to use/leverage Strategic to win, for example, Fire Lanes or Sensor Net to neutralize the combat advantage Aceholes wields. I'm not saying I'm not working on it, but it certainly is less intuitive than building the Rebel equivalent, the well-known Doom Pickle and Hangers-On.

Just now, GiledPallaeon said:

Ok, so I'll lead with that I agree here. Rieekan is like punching a brick wall, especially when it's the Red Squadron variant you prefer. The issue with going second is building an Imperial list that wants to go second. Many are fine with it, but it's much harder for the Imperials to use/leverage Strategic to win, for example, Fire Lanes or Sensor Net to neutralize the combat advantage Aceholes wields. I'm not saying I'm not working on it, but it certainly is less intuitive than building the Rebel equivalent, the well-known Doom Pickle and Hangers-On.

Entirely fair

1 minute ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Many are fine with it, but it's much harder for the Imperials to use/leverage Strategic to win,

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/objectively-the-best-salvage-run/

You are looking in the wrong place my friend....

I honestly expected Sloane to help with this, but it appears the Gallant Haven version is still too tough to crack. As Gink has said, I've gone the direction of not bothering with anything more than a token squadron force and try to out run and out fly it. It's not a list that moves particularly well, so my Madine MSU has shown promise.

Mainly what we need is wave 7. The meta needs a major shake up that wave 6 was never really equipped to deliver.

Just now, Ginkapo said:

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/objectively-the-best-salvage-run/

You are looking in the wrong place my friend....

I'm more than happy to try that objective again, it never worked for me, but I'll try again. The issue remains, that's not near as powerful an objective points-wise as most others, and the yellows that favors, Fire Lanes and Contested Outpost, are directly vulnerable to the other lists proliferating through the meta, namely @Truthiness's Madine, Sloane ISDs (either almost every or every Sloane at Hothlanta was I/Q/G), and lists like my dreadnoughts that say screw it, and charge. With two ISDs.

13 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/objectively-the-best-salvage-run/

You are looking in the wrong place my friend....

That's only 80 points in a meta where many winning fleets can get 400 points just from objectives. It also bunches all obstacles and objectives into the center of the table, where the enemy fleet can easily intercept them.

5 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

That's only 80 points in a meta where many winning fleets can get 400 points just from objectives. It also bunches all obstacles and objectives into the center of the table, where the enemy fleet can easily intercept them.

That's because their opponents keep giving them those objectives while being incapable of competing. Why on Earth take Sensor Net or Fire Lanes when you don't have Strategic? Time to suck it up and start taking the reds. Advanced Gunnery and Most Wanted can be manageable.

6 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

That's only 80 points in a meta where many winning fleets can get 400 points just from objectives. It also bunches all obstacles and objectives into the center of the table, where the enemy fleet can easily intercept them.

This is basically my issue with it as an objective, like Station Assault. It's not that titled to second player, and the points it offers are mitigation, not victory. It won't let what Superior Positions gives Cracken where the guy can be destroyed save one ship, but win the game through raw strength of tokens.

10 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

It's been over a year with this pick, and I'm frankly at a point where I'm just about to give up. While the ability of this list to fight itself is well proven, other responses especially on the Imperial side are less effective or involve specializing your list to only combat this singular list type. In competition settings, this is having an adverse effect on list design where this list is either played, or sufficiently avoided throughout the event to move to the top positions. This has remained the case even after the Errata nerfs to Rieekan and BCC.

I keep hearing that players are finding this list beatable, but I'm not hearing specifics on what is being used to do so. You can't tie the squadron component down without destroying all the escorts almost simultaneously (thanks to Jan) and you can't assault the ships without taking severe damage from the squadron component. The 5 activation variant also doesn't let most fleets activate after all Rebel ships have gone.

Georgia regional had 2, which placed first and sixth; and I don't recall seeing any at the Ohio regional. Michigan regional fleets haven't been posted yet, but the winner was a 2+4 with Dodonna, rather than a 2+3 with Rieekan.

And I think I read someone say that the Georgia winner only pulls that fleet out for major events.

In the OP, you say "very few specific counters have been offered especially counters designed for competition play", and "I'm frankly at a point where I'm just about to give up" - the latter sounds like a complaint based on a local meta, in which case, it's no wonder you'd see posts caling it beatable that you would be unable to replicate, given the huge variance in local meta between any two arbitrary chosen posters on the forums.

If three people bring it every time in your local meta and always dominate, and nobody brings it (or they do, but run it poorly) in some other local meta, neither has great insights for the other.

So, my question is, are you talking about competitive meta, local meta, or both - and in any case, how often and how well do the fleets you're talking about appear/perform?

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

[T]he winner was a 2+4 with Dodonna, rather than a 2+3 with Rieekan.

And I think I read someone say that the Georgia winner only pulls that fleet out for major events.

The winner in Michigan was the Royal Canadian Air Force, an Acehole derivative that won the Vassal Autumn Tourney. Having fought it twice, it's a masterwork of a list. And that is also correct for Atlanta, The Magnificent Seven is an old list its creator broke out because "I could run it in a coma".

10 minutes ago, svelok said:

Georgia regional had 2, which placed first and sixth; and I don't recall seeing any at the Ohio regional. Michigan regional fleets haven't been posted yet, but the winner was a 2+4 with Dodonna, rather than a 2+3 with Rieekan.

And I think I read someone say that the Georgia winner only pulls that fleet out for major events.

In the OP, you say "very few specific counters have been offered especially counters designed for competition play", and "I'm frankly at a point where I'm just about to give up" - the latter sounds like a complaint based on a local meta, in which case, it's no wonder you'd see posts caling it beatable that you would be unable to replicate, given the huge variance in local meta between any two arbitrary chosen posters on the forums.

If three people bring it every time in your local meta and always dominate, and nobody brings it (or they do, but run it poorly) in some other local meta, neither has great insights for the other.

So, my question is, are you talking about competitive meta, local meta, or both - and in any case, how often and how well do the fleets you're talking about appear/perform?

Competition meta, and this fleet type has been frequently seen in the top 4 or better at tournaments across the USA since taking 1-2 in World's during late 2016. I've played against a number of local, regional, and national, and international players with this list and it largely functions the same and performs well nearly everywhere even if it isn't exclusively at the top tables.

The winner of the Vancouver, WA was a reeikan a whole list as well. He has been running it for years and can run it in a coma as well. I don’t think it’s an easy list for anyone to run and I think it could be beatable but it’s synergy with squadrons is unparrelled elsewhere. Toryn, Adar, GH, Yavaris and Jan makes it a damage soak

15 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

That's because their opponents keep giving them those objectives while being incapable of competing. Why on Earth take Sensor Net or Fire Lanes when you don't have Strategic? Time to suck it up and start taking the reds. Advanced Gunnery and Most Wanted can be manageable.

That's absolutely correct, however I should mention that for some fleets taking Fire Lanes without strategic can be a calculated gamble that does pay off.

Gallant Haven is the problem combined with Jan Ors more than Rieekan. You won't be able to kill more than one squadron a turn. I have just given up trying to counter Rieekan Aceholes.

Though not specifically designed for the A-Hole list, I wonder if this might be an option? Draw squads into jamming field/GH mess and snipe with FC? Then throw the MC 30 in to kill GH?

GH Scorpion (397/400)
Rebels - Author: RogueCommander

Commander: General Dodonna

Objectives: Precision Strike, Hyperspace Assault, Superior Positions

[flagship] Assault Frigate Mark II B (72)
- General Dodonna (20)
- Gallant Haven (8)
- Electronic Counter Measures (7)
- Expanded Hangar Bay (5)
- Flight Controllers (6)
= 118 total points

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
= 72 total points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
- Bright Hope (2)
- Jamming Field (2)
- Toryn Farr (7)
= 29 total points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
- Quantum Storm (1)
- Slicer Tools (7)
- Hondo Ohnaka (2)
= 28 total points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
- Bomber Command Center (8)
- Ahsoka Tano (2)
= 28 total points

Squadrons (122/134):
3x E-wing Squadron (45)
1x Biggs Darklighter X-Wing Squadron (19)
3x X-Wing Squadron (39)
1x Moldy Crow - Jan Ors (19)

It's not simply that they are tough to beat, but that they have a high percentage of high score wins, and when they lose it's usually close.. you can play safe and deliberate and squeak out a win often enough (given relatively even player skill and dice rolling), but they will put their 4-5 point loss in with 9-10pt wins and still end up on/near the top of the tourney. Lists built to beat them this way have a tougher time scoring the big wins in general, so you can 6-5 the aceholes and still end up well behind them at the end of a tourney.

It's always going to win the squadron game.

So stop playing the squadron game against it.

MM++ v6.7 (395/400)
==================
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 59)
+ Mon Mothma (30)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
+ Admonition (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 10)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 10)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 10)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
Most Wanted
Hyperspace assault
Solar Corona

23 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

It's always going to win the squadron game.

So stop playing the squadron game against it.

Exactly my thoughts, although I wonder how it'll perform vs counter-2 squadron spam.

EDIT: I believe that with the current balance outflying it and playing "kill the carriers" strategy can be pretty viable. One of the main weak points of the list is it's predictability navigation-wise, as Yavaris threat zones are limited.

2 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Exactly my thoughts, although I wonder how it'll perform vs counter-2 squadron spam.

So glad this is a thing now. Toryn hwks are the future.

Ackbar gunlines can give this fleet fits. No guarantees, but it is a good matchup. Take 2nd, make sure your objectives are no brainers to give you points, and then kite. The squadron ball is gross, but the ships don’t really fight at all well. They scratch paint while squads eat opponents. Kite and drag out the turn where the squads catch you as long as you can.

A fast Ackbar gunline (speed 3) is even better. Then the squads are barely faster than you.

5 minutes ago, PT106 said:

Exactly my thoughts, although I wonder how it'll perform vs counter-2 squadron spam.

You have to have some way to force the fighters out of the GH bubble or that's .25 average damage (or .38 with a reroll)--and that's assuming Jan's braces are spent.

So far, and this isn't to poo-poo on the suggestions here, all the specific counters are Rebels.

If you're a Rebel main and haven't tried playing vs this list archetype with Imperials, you really need to try doing so.