I have created this thread in order to not sully a wonderful thread dealing with how the Empire can crush the Rebellion once and for all.

On 12/7/2017 at 8:37 PM, Jabby said:

If anyone has read the essential guide to warfare and/or outbound flight you would know that Palpatine was just trying to make the galaxy a safe place and to defeat the Yuuzhan Vong. Also, the Empire did create stability and eliminated corruption quite extensively, pirates and criminals were rooted out and lots of jobs were created in the military and supporting industries. There were huge advances in science, such as kyber crystal power and stuff. Plus, the senate was very bad, they were corrupt to a point were trade groups could invade planets.

This is all true. Arguments to the contrary are Rebel propaganda and should be treated as treason.

On 12/7/2017 at 9:24 PM, The Jabbawookie said:

You wound me, sir; I’ve always been a staunch Imperial. As for propaganda, the only facts given were that Palpatine was under arrest and that his fate would be decided by the Senate. The charge was interrupted by Palpatine committing murder. There is no evidence of Windu’s motive besides an outdated old tone that has since been declared unreliable. Make no mistake, I have no objections to the newer, more streamlined order we now enjoy. But as higher-ranking members of this order, we should be aware of the sacrifices the Emperor made, and the lengths he was willing to go to for his vision.

Well, I think this may be a security-clearance issue. I can, therefore, not disclose everything to you. However, what existing footage from the ISB archive tells us is that when Mace Windu decided to begin his coup d'état, the only evidence that he was presented with was the suspicion that Palpatine was a Sith. Beyond that the only facts in evidence was that the Senate had determined that the Jedi Council would be accountable to the Chancellor as part of the emergency powers. Given that the latter was fully in accordance with the democratic decision-making powers of the Senate, the Jedi Council had no standing to arrest the Chancellor, since the Senate had made them answerable to him.

Now that you know the Truth, go forth and spread it among the unwashed masses so that they too can know the Emperor's glory.

I mean, that's all well and good, but I fear our dear Emperor (may he ever fund our expansion) may have strayed. You speak of democracy - firstly, it was a republic. Secondly, he dissolved the Senate. If the people of a representative democracy no longer have representatives, the representative democracy ceases to exist. As we maintained the Emperor (may his Benevolence never die), we rendered the system of government a monarchy at best, a dictatorship at worst. Additionally, the need to use fear to keep local systems in line implies that there is something fundamentally wrong with the methodology used to govern, given that it causes unrest.

Furthermore, without a representative government, or any form of government other than a monarchy, the only way the masses can express their feelings is through protest and, eventually, rebellion. Suppressing rebellion whilst still claiming to represent the people seems to be an oxymoron. I therefore am prompted to wonder if the attempted coup by the Jedi (may they forever remain eradicated) did not in fact cause our beloved Emperor (may he forever smile upon us) to in fact perform the very deeds they falsely accused him of planning.

Essentially, my query is this: If our Emperor (may his name never be tarnished) uses as his defense the fact that he was within a democracy, as you would claim, then do not the same restrictions apply to him as to the Jedi (may Corellia create a tenth **** for their sole use)?

As they were answerable to him, he was to the Senate. As they could not arrest him, he could not dissolve the Senate. Therefore, when he dissolved the Senate, he was performing just as blatant a coup as the infernal Jedi (why do we honor them with a capital 'J'?) were. I agree that the Senate was corrupt, but good intentions are not a means whereby one may circumnavigate the very law through which one holds office, even if said one may be the Emperor (may we be his loyal subjects for all eternity). I can't help but conclude, therefore, that there is a certain amount of either self-deception or self-contradiction in your defense.

But what do I know? I'm just a lowly stormtrooper. . .

11 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

But what do I know? I'm just a lowly stormtrooper. . .

Which means that you should be seen and not heard.

KNOW YOUR PLACE!

11 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

You speak of democracy - firstly, it was a republic.

The difference is one that is useless in a discussion of this kind, given that pure direct democracy is something that is impractical and historically extremely rare. As a stormtrooper you have not acquired the standing to be a pedant. That is reserved for higher administrative officials like myself.

15 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Secondly, he dissolved the Senate. If the people of a representative democracy no longer have representatives, the representative democracy ceases to exist.

Effectively, the Senate made the decision to abolish itself. This is entirely legitimate. The voters elected the Senate, the Senate elected the Chancellor, and effectively amended the constitution to vest all powers into the Chancellor. The entire structure remains republican. As the most virtuous individual in the galaxy, the galaxy's citizenry chose to elect senators to govern them, and the senators realized that they had insufficient capacity to govern, and therefore invested governing powers in the Emperor. The Emperor - the first citizen of the galaxy - individually represents the whole galaxy ;thus a representative republic.

18 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Additionally, the need to use fear to keep local systems in line implies that there is something fundamentally wrong with the methodology used to govern, given that it causes unrest.

Well, if the local systems were sufficiently loyal, they would have no reason to fear. Given that they are experiencing fear it means that they are disloyal. The perverse interests of disloyal local systems should not impede what is best for the galaxy as a whole.

22 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Furthermore, without a representative government, or any form of government other than a monarchy, the only way the masses can express their feelings is through protest and, eventually, rebellion. Suppressing rebellion whilst still claiming to represent the people seems to be an oxymoron. I therefore am prompted to wonder if the attempted coup by the Jedi (may they forever remain eradicated) did not in fact cause our beloved Emperor (may he forever smile upon us) to in fact perform the very deeds they falsely accused him of planning.

Since the Jedi did not state a charge at the time of the arrest, and when they did they did so in the name of the senate - which had vested executive powers and the power of oversight over the Jedi in the Chancellor - they had no legitimacy with which to arrest him. They were acting as an arbitary entity intent on committing a coup, purely in the interest of avoiding being accountable. Since there was no accusation, they could not cause the beloved Emperor to have done the thing they accused him of doing, because they did not accuse him of anything.

28 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Essentially, my query is this: If our Emperor (may his name never be tarnished) uses as his defense the fact that he was within a democracy, as you would claim, then do not the same restrictions apply to him as to the Jedi?

No, because the Senate granted powers to the Emperor; not to the Jedi.

29 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

As they were answerable to him, he was to the Senate. As they could not arrest him, he could not dissolve the Senate. Therefore, when he dissolved the Senate, he was performing just as blatant a coup as the infernal Jedi .

Consider the timeline, however. After governing brilliantly for roughly two decades, it was clear that the Senate had become a waste of resources. It had twenty years to overturn the state of affairs and chose not to do so. Dissolving the Senate was merely a cost-saving measure.

Academically, when in most democratic systems a chief executive dissolves the legislature - which many chief executives have the power to do - it is not to disband a legislature, it is in order to allow for new elections. I think this is what happened, and when Tarkin said "permanently", he probably just meant that particular sitting Imperial Senate. I'm sure that the Emperor would have held new elections that would have allowed the people of the galaxy to vote in a new Senate, which would (obviously) have reinstated executive powers in the Emperor (I mean, why not??). However, by engaging in armed revolt, the Rebellion tried to subvert the democratic system in order to commit just the same sort of coup that the Jedi had attempted two decades earlier.

21 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Well, I think this may be a security-clearance issue. I can, therefore, not disclose everything to you. However, what existing footage from the ISB archive tells us is that when Mace Windu decided to begin his coup d'état, the only evidence that he was presented with was the suspicion that Palpatine was a Sith. Beyond that the only facts in evidence was that the Senate had determined that the Jedi Council would be accountable to the Chancellor as part of the emergency powers. Given that the latter was fully in accordance with the democratic decision-making powers of the Senate, the Jedi Council had no standing to arrest the Chancellor, since the Senate had made them answerable to him.

To continue the Devaronian's advocate position I've somehow taken... Windu received the testimony of a Republic General; nothing to be taken lightly. Combined with the abundant circumstantial evidence, that testimony could easily constitute a Republic interpretation of "probable cause." Had Windu believed a search would reveal incriminating evidence, he would also have had "probable cause." The arrest was carried out "in the name of the Galactic Senate." This implies that the Jedi could, indeed, have the authority for such an arrest; although they were answerable to the Supreme Chancellor, there could still have been existing legislation legitimizing such an arrest (much like the Republic contingency order 65, which allowed a majority vote of the Galactic Senate or the Republic Security Council to remove an acting Chancellor from office, with the full support of the GAR.) Again, this is not an argument declaring the Emperor's actions to be "right" or "wrong." I would never presume to make such a treasonous statement, especially as any legislation the Chancellor may have violated was part of a corrupt system he sought to dismantle.

7 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Which means that you should be seen and not heard.

KNOW YOUR PLACE!

My most sincere apologies, I took too much liberty. Still and all, I am taking night school to graduate the Imperial Academy at Coruscant, and I feel like this discussion ought to give me a head-start when I graduate.

7 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

The difference is one that is useless in a discussion of this kind, given that pure direct democracy is something that is impractical and historically extremely rare. As a stormtrooper you have not acquired the standing to be a pedant. That is reserved for higher administrative officials like myself.

Not being required to understand it does not mean that I do not. And your telling me that I needn't does not address the fundamental issue at the heart of the point, sir.

7 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Effectively, the Senate made the decision to abolish itself. This is entirely legitimate. The voters elected the Senate, the Senate elected the Chancellor, and effectively amended the constitution to vest all powers into the Chancellor. The entire structure remains republican. As the most virtuous individual in the galaxy, the galaxy's citizenry chose to elect senators to govern them, and the senators realized that they had insufficient capacity to govern, and therefore invested governing powers in the Emperor. The Emperor - the first citizen of the galaxy - individually represents the whole galaxy ;thus a representative republic.

That is a bit of a leap in logic. The people themselves have no voice. By protesting, they are clearly stating that the Emperor (may we emulate him forever) does not speak for them. Which means that he must not represent the entire galaxy, which means the Senate was necessary.

7 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Well, if the local systems were sufficiently loyal, they would have no reason to fear. Given that they are experiencing fear it means that they are disloyal. The perverse interests of disloyal local systems should not impede what is best for the galaxy as a whole.

Yes, but why were they disloyal? Because they disagreed with the abolition of their system of government. As the government was a republic, and the Emperor (may his vision forever guide us) got his powers through the Senate, his dissolution of the Republic dissolved the basis for his powers.

7 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Since the Jedi did not state a charge at the time of the arrest, and when they did they did so in the name of the senate - which had vested executive powers and the power of oversight over the Jedi in the Chancellor - they had no legitimacy with which to arrest him. They were acting as an arbitary entity intent on committing a coup, purely in the interest of avoiding being accountable. Since there was no accusation, they could not cause the beloved Emperor to have done the thing they accused him of doing, because they did not accuse him of anything.

Though I agree with Jabbawookie's points above, I have no issue with the Jedi (curse them forever)'s fall. I was using their coup as an example of the most reprehensible behavior.

7 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

No, because the Senate granted powers to the Emperor; not to the Jedi.

Yes, but they did not grant him the power to remove them from power. Did they? And I mean explicitly.

7 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Consider the timeline, however. After governing brilliantly for roughly two decades, it was clear that the Senate had become a waste of resources. It had twenty years to overturn the state of affairs and chose not to do so. Dissolving the Senate was merely a cost-saving measure.

Yes, I agree it needed to go. But was it legal for the Emperor (may he be forever praised) to dissolve it? As I said, good intentions count for naught outside the law.

7 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Academically, when in most democratic systems a chief executive dissolves the legislature - which many chief executives have the power to do - it is not to disband a legislature, it is in order to allow for new elections. I think this is what happened, and when Tarkin said "permanently", he probably just meant that particular sitting Imperial Senate. I'm sure that the Emperor would have held new elections that would have allowed the people of the galaxy to vote in a new Senate, which would (obviously) have reinstated executive powers in the Emperor (I mean, why not??). However, by engaging in armed revolt, the Rebellion tried to subvert the democratic system in order to commit just the same sort of coup that the Jedi had attempted two decades earlier.

The Rebellion may have attempted to subvert the system, but they oughtn't to have prevented the system from carrying out its plans. If a reelection was to occur, why did it not, in the five or so years that passed? The longer our Emperor (may he forever be merciful) delayed the elections, and indeed it appears he made no attempt to hold them, given that the regional governors were granted direct control of their systems, the more it seems like the Rebellion's alegations are proven correct.

3 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

there could still have been existing legislation legitimizing such an arrest (much like the Republic contingency order 65, which allowed a majority vote of the Galactic Senate or the Republic Security Council to remove an acting Chancellor from office, with the full support of the GAR.)

There was. It may even have been 64, but I do not recall. The only occurrence I have seen of its mention is that in the annals of the Republic Commandos.

13 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Windu received the testimony of a Republic General; nothing to be taken lightly. Combined with the abundant circumstantial evidence, that testimony could easily constitute a Republic interpretation of "probable cause."

Could you please elaborate on these doubtlessly baseless claims, and explain why you are making such a treasonous case?

2 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Could you please elaborate on these doubtlessly baseless claims, and explain why you are making such a treasonous case?

General Skywalker, a trusted source, obtained a confession from our dear Emperor (that most exemplar being) first hand. Jedi (may their memory fade) can sense lies, allegedly. Therefore both Skywalker and Windu were not deceived.

As such, they had what they considered reliable evidence of probable cause. The initial purpose of the Jedi (the worst of traitors) was to be the police of the Republic, therefore they had the legal right to arrest anybody, even their superior officers within the political system.

11 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Could you please elaborate on these doubtlessly baseless claims, and explain why you are making such a treasonous case?

Well... we lack access to a clear Republic-era definition of probable cause. But here's a definition according to the Oxford Companion to American Law. (An odd title, but reasonably respected nonetheless.) "information sufficient to warrant a prudent person's belief that the wanted individual had committed a crime (for an arrest warrant) or that evidence of a crime or contraband would be found in a search (for a search warrant)". As an enforcer of the Republic, Windu may have been enabled to act in a similar fashion. There isn't necessarily reason to believe his actions were legal, but one would be hard-pressed to indicate he was acting against the Republic in any fashion, either. My claim isn't at all treasonous unless you place significance on the laws of the Old Republic, even now. We have a word for groups who do that... "Rebels."

@GhostofNobodyInParticular Are you sure you have the right attitude for a Stormtrooper? Asking questions, learning Republic policy, use of four-syllable words, reading the best book series in the galaxy (Republic Commando)... Much as I admire our noble men and women in shining plastoid, I must ask; have you considered an Intelligence career?

5 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

@GhostofNobodyInParticular Are you sure you have the right attitude for a Stormtrooper? Asking questions, learning Republic policy, use of four-syllable words, reading the best book series in the galaxy (Republic Commando)... Much as I admire our noble men and women in shining plastoid, I must ask; have you considered an Intelligence career?

As I said, I am currently undergoing night school for officer's training at the IA on Coruscant. Stromtroopering is just a 'day job', so to speak. Do you think an intelligence officer's career would suit me better? On the one hand, I'll never attain the rank of Moff, on the other, I'll have the authority to depose them. . .

A smart, dedicated individual can go far in the organization. As for power, there are two kinds of people in the galaxy: those who don't provide Imperial Intelligence officers with the utmost respect and cooperation, and those who are smart, with a decent life expectancy. Moffs are no exception. (Darth Vader is, but we just stay out of his way when he's in a bad mood. )

3 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

That is a bit of a leap in logic. The people themselves have no voice. By protesting, they are clearly stating that the Emperor (may we emulate him forever) does not speak for them. Which means that he must not represent the entire galaxy, which means the Senate was necessary.

The then Chancellor, Palpatine declared in the senate the formation of the empire. Many senators approved and the empire was a strong hand for stability after the chaos of the clone wars.

Quick question: who here has the Essential Guide for Warfare? I use it quite a lot and I don’t know if you guys have any idea what I’m saying.

In the Republic, the Senate was ineffective and corrupt, so much so that corporate authorities could become more powerful than the Republic. Look at the Naboo crisis. The Trade Federation invaded and occupied a republic world and the republic did nothing until Valorum was voted out. The same Trade Federation joined other corporate authorities and became more powerful than the Republic itself.

While some in the Imperial government did abuse their power in the later days of the Empire specifically, the major ideas of the Empire were always focused on the noble goals of order and security. That is why I continue to serve the Empire to this day as an officer in His Imperial Majesty the Emperor's Navy.

Long live the Empire! Long may the Emperor rule!

3 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Not being required to understand it does not mean that I do not. And your telling me that I needn't does not address the fundamental issue at the heart of the point, sir.

I did not address comprehension, I addressed pedantry. It is a quality inherently connected to social standing.

3 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

That is a bit of a leap in logic. The people themselves have no voice. By protesting, they are clearly stating that the Emperor (may we emulate him forever) does not speak for them. Which means that he must not represent the entire galaxy, which means the Senate was necessary.

'The people' did not protest. The Rebellion is nothing more than some fringe rabble malcontents. The have no legitimate standing, whereas the Emperor was granted his powers by the Senate, which had been elected by the people of the Republic to wield the powers that it granted to the Emperor. Therefore, the will of the Emperor is the will of the people - or, at least, should be, and would be if they had his wisdom.

4 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Yes, but why were they disloyal? Because they disagreed with the abolition of their system of government. As the government was a republic, and the Emperor (may his vision forever guide us) got his powers through the Senate, his dissolution of the Republic dissolved the basis for his powers.

If they disagreed with the amendment of the system of government to a more streamlined and more efficient form of governance, then it is likely the case that they did so because they benefited from the corruption of the Republic. If that is the case, then their interests were corrupt to begin with. For example, Alderaan bleated about the streamlining of the Imperial form of governance in the name of democracy, while themselves ruled by a hereditary house. At least the Emperor came to power because if his brilliance and benevolence, with the consent of the Senate , rather than because of inheritance.

4 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Yes, but they did not grant him the power to remove them from power. Did they? And I mean explicitly.

Yes, they did. It was called the Emergency Powers Act . The act granted powers for chancellors to make instant decisions without the need for full senate approval. If decisions do not require senate approval, then they remove powers from the senate and grant them to the Chancellor.

4 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Yes, I agree it needed to go. But was it legal for the Emperor (may he be forever praised) to dissolve it? As I said, good intentions count for naught outside the law.

The Rebellion may have attempted to subvert the system, but they oughtn't to have prevented the system from carrying out its plans. If a reelection was to occur, why did it not, in the five or so years that passed? The longer our Emperor (may he forever be merciful) delayed the elections, and indeed it appears he made no attempt to hold them, given that the regional governors were granted direct control of their systems, the more it seems like the Rebellion's alegations are proven correct.

Of course it was legal. The Emperor did it, didn't he? If the Emperor does it, it must be legal. He is the Emperor after all. Regarding the elections, I do not think that the Galactic Senate had general elections at given times, as each system has its own way of determining its representation. I'm sure the dissolution of the Imperial Senate was a way for the Emperor to relieve the senators of the burdens of rubber-stamp governance, and allow the appointed governors to simply administer the systems properly.

6 hours ago, Jabby said:

The then Chancellor, Palpatine declared in the senate the formation of the empire. Many senators approved and the empire was a strong hand for stability after the chaos of the clone wars.

Quick question: who here has the Essential Guide for Warfare? I use it quite a lot and I don’t know if you guys have any idea what I’m saying.

I do not.

I do not have an issue with the formation of the Empire, but the absolution of the Senate in 0BBY.

5 hours ago, ImperialCaptain2017 said:

While some in the Imperial government did abuse their power in the later days of the Empire specifically, the major ideas of the Empire were always focused on the noble goals of order and security. That is why I continue to serve the Empire to this day as an officer in His Imperial Majesty the Emperor's Navy.

Long live the Empire! Long may the Emperor rule!

I agree, the Empire's overall functions are the epitome of virtue. y concern is that some activities may have been illegal yet performed.

Amen!

5 hours ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

I did not address comprehension, I addressed pedantry. It is a quality inherently connected to social standing.

It still ignores the point.

5 hours ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

'The people' did not protest. The Rebellion is nothing more than some fringe rabble malcontents. The have no legitimate standing, whereas the Emperor was granted his powers by the Senate, which had been elected by the people of the Republic to wield the powers that it granted to the Emperor. Therefore, the will of the Emperor is the will of the people - or, at least, should be, and would be if they had his wisdom.

They are Imperial Citizens, are they not? Or were, ere their rebellion. Therefore when they began expressing unrest, they were expressing unrest as the people.

That's another thing. The Emperor (may his mercy endure for ever) was given his powers by the Republic. We all agree that the Republic was corrupt. If a corrupt body voluntarily hands over its power, it can not be out of a desire to do good. Therefore one must assume that in handing over their power the corrupt individuals believed it to be for their betterment. If so, can one really assume that the Empire is anything but a refinement of the corruption?

One could argue that the dissolution of the Senate put an end to that body's corruption, and that the Emperor (long may he live!) tricked them, but for 24 years he only went along with them, and when he did dissolve it, it was in response to protest at the corruption, not in response to the corruption.

5 hours ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

If they disagreed with the amendment of the system of government to a more streamlined and more efficient form of governance, then it is likely the case that they did so because they benefited from the corruption of the Republic. If that is the case, then their interests were corrupt to begin with.

I do not refer to the creation of our glorious Empire, but to the dissolution of the Senate. This is what sparked the larger Rebellion.

5 hours ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

For example, Alderaan bleated about the streamlining of the Imperial form of governance in the name of democracy, while themselves ruled by a hereditary house. At least the Emperor came to power because if his brilliance and benevolence, with the consent of the Senate , rather than because of inheritance.

True, but he still practices the same autocracy as they did. And if he claims to represent the people, then it can be said (blasphemously) that he is following the same hypocrisy as they did.

5 hours ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Yes, they did. It was called the Emergency Powers Act . The act granted powers for chancellors to make instant decisions without the need for full senate approval. If decisions do not require senate approval, then they remove powers from the senate and grant them to the Chancellor.

It granted him full power until the Emergency was over. It also allowed him to dictate when that Emergency was over. A thoroughly corrupt Act, as it created an effective dictatorship out of a Republic. Beyond that, however, the Emperor (may his wisdom be our own) declared a state of Emergency in 0BBY. This implies that the previous state of Emergency was not ongoing. Which means that his powers to bypass the Senate (which was not, to the best of my knowledge, granted in the Imperial Charter) was no longer in effect, and thus he had no power to annul the Senate without their consent. If they truly were corrupt, why would they grant this? And if they weren't corrupt, they'd want to represent their people, so why would they grant this?

5 hours ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Of course it was legal. The Emperor did it, didn't he? If the Emperor does it, it must be legal. He is the Emperor after all.

This is a fallacy. If there are laws in place dictating conduct (as in the Constitution) then one's actions are bound by those laws.

5 hours ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Regarding the elections, I do not think that the Galactic Senate had general elections at given times, as each system has its own way of determining its representation. I'm sure the dissolution of the Imperial Senate was a way for the Emperor to relieve the senators of the burdens of rubber-stamp governance, and allow the appointed governors to simply administer the systems properly.

Again, I do not doubt his good intentions. But some do doubt their legality.

What about human-favoring policies and the enslavement of Wookies, Twi-Leks and other races? I mean, let's assume Palatines' intentions were good. Why did he not step up against slavery more effectively?

Dictatorship was not bad at its origins.

24 minutes ago, Norell said:

What about human-favoring policies and the enslavement of Wookies, Twi-Leks and other races? I mean, let's assume Palatines' intentions were good. Why did he not step up against slavery more effectively?

Ah, but they weren't slaves, they were indentured servants, paying off their debts to the Empire, whatever those debts may be - monetary, or metaphorical, in atonement for rebellion, theft, murder, etc. That is, at least, how they were justified.

34 minutes ago, Norell said:

What about human-favoring policies and the enslavement of Wookies, Twi-Leks and other races? I mean, let's assume Palatines' intentions were good. Why did he not step up against slavery more effectively?

The slavery was going to be abolished eventually and the slaves the empire used were, as mentioned, POWs and Separatists who were going to contribute to the good of the whole.

https://imgur.com/a/1mAFM#3PDFWRh

What an absolutely wonderful thread. I am going to make a note in your file of your exemplary performance @Mikael Hasselstein and recommend you for a commendation.

@GhostofNobodyInParticular and @The Jabbawookie I find your lack of faith disturbing to say the least. At best you sound like apologists for the Jedi at worst you sound like Rebel sympathizers. Your actions will be monitored closely. This will be your only warning.

38 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

What an absolutely wonderful thread. I am going to make a note in your file of your exemplary performance @Mikael Hasselstein and recommend you for a commendation.

@GhostofNobodyInParticular and @The Jabbawookie I find your lack of faith disturbing to say the least. At best you sound like apologists for the Jedi at worst you sound like Rebel sympathizers. Your actions will be monitored closely. This will be your only warning.

I see the ISB is continuing its careful watch...keep up the good work, Agent Megatronrex.

1 hour ago, Norell said:

What about human-favoring policies and the enslavement of Wookies, Twi-Leks and other races? I mean, let's assume Palatines' intentions were good. Why did he not step up against slavery more effectively?

Human-favoring policies? You mean like having Mas Amedda, a Chagrian, as Grand Vizier of the Empire. The second highest civilian rank in the Galaxy. Or maybe you meant Grand Admiral Thrawn holding the highest rank in the Imperial Navy. What enslavement of Wookies and Twi-leks? They were prisoners convicted of crimes against the Empire serving out their sentences as conscripted laborers. They were no more slaves than the prisoners picking up trash on the side of the road are. Now if you want to talk about slaves we can talk about the literal army of them created at the request of Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. A slave army created and led by a group of baby snatching religious fanatics used to attack mostly non-human populated worlds. Of course we can assume our great Emperor's intentions were good because they were. That fact is supported by history. As far as him not deciding to "step up against slavery more effectively" he kind of had his hands full dealing with a little thing called the Rebel Alliance first. Are you really suggesting that either he or Lord Vader, a man who had been a slave himself, weren't sympathetic to the plight of the oppressed. It's not like your vaunted Jedi stepped up either. In fact I seem to recall an incident where Master Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan went to Hutt space and engaged in an act of slave trading with a Toydarian junk dealer. That poor innocent child, trading one master on Tatooine for a whole council of masters at the Jedi Temple.

You did overlook the fact that the overall leader- the Commander in Chief - who ordered the mobilisation and use of said army was, of course, Chancellor Palpatine.

That puts him at the head of the Slave Army.

The one ultimately responsible for every death recorded at their hands and blasters.

Without his Authorisation - and indeed, it was his first act under the Emergency Powers, thus, the first act that did not require Senate approval - The Army would never have been Used.

It is entirely on his head.

4 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

It still ignores the point.

Again, I do not doubt his good intentions. But some do doubt their legality.

Your point about the difference between democracy and republic is a dilatory one. The Emperor was able to convince the Senate to have a moment of clarity and hand over powers to someone vastly more benevolent and capable. They decided that the Emperor could both do a better job representing the people and guaranteeing their interests than they could. Despite the tremendous burden, he took it upon himself, and sacrificed much of his bodily vitality in fighting off the attempted Jedi coup.

Any of your remaining reservations are signs that you are part of the Rebel alliance and a traitor.

Take him away!

2 hours ago, Norell said:

What about human-favoring policies and the enslavement of Wookies, Twi-Leks and other races? I mean, let's assume Palatines' intentions were good. Why did he not step up against slavery more effectively?

All beings need to have their place in galactic society. Some simply need to be shown that place more vigorously than others.

It is manifest that humans from the Core Worlds are the makers of galactic civilization, and that most aliens have simply been takers of the bounties that galactic civilization has to offer. That was the corruption of the Republic. It took from the Core Worlds the hard-earned order and civilizational resources to distribute those among the aliens. The folly of the Republic was the idea that by enfranchizing the aliens they could be civilized. Instead, they became indolent and corrupt, and used the Republic to redistribute the Core's bounty to their Outer Rim territories. Being a human emigré to the Rim, Palpatine understood this, and had the vision to cut off the umbilical cord on which the aliens fed off the core. Now, the aliens are permitted to do some of what needs to be done in order to contribute back to the civilization that gave them so much.

And let us not consider the Rebellion particularly benevolent to aliens. There is collected footage of one Rebel droid calling Jawas "disgusting creatures", and Senator "Princess" Leia Organa referred to a Wookiee companion as a "walking carpet" and refused him an award equal to that of her human minions.

1 hour ago, Megatronrex said:

Are you really suggesting that either he or Lord Vader, a man who had been a slave himself, weren't sympathetic to the plight of the oppressed.

Indeed, that was the situation under the Republic, where aliens were allowed to be the slave masters of exceptional human beings like the one who became Lord Vader. The Empire is righting the great wrongs of the Republic. Hopefully the work that they do will set them free once they learn how to become makers of civilization. Regrettably, there is a lot of alien corruption that needs to be undone from so many thousands of years under the Republic.