30 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I guess the real question is - does Jerry usage changes speed chart for this ship or does it keep speed chart the same but provides an additional modification the same way nav dial does? I can see arguments either way. The relevant RRG quotes are:

"Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed. The ship can resolve a (Nav) command to adjust speed and/or yaw."

"Nav Dial: Increase or decrease the ship’s speed by one, and/or increase the yaw value of one joint by one for this maneuver."

"JJ: During a friendly's ship Determine Course step, it may suffer 1 damage to change the first yaw value of its current speed to "II" until the end of its activation"

And to really screw with your idea.

There is only one opportunity to resolve Jerry;s effect. There is only one determine course step, so JJ can only be resolved once.

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

And to really screw with your idea.

There is only one opportunity to resolve Jerry;s effect. There is only one determine course step, so JJ can only be resolved once.

Oh. That one was discussed before. Given "During" trigger, his effect can be resolved multiple times as long as the cost is paid each time.

Did this come up before? I don't remember it, and this is a really interesting alternate interpretation for Jerry.

I'm actually leaning toward @PT106 's interpretation, RAW. With the caveat that I've never seen it played that way, and this definitely feels like a rules "gotcha" if you pull this on an opponent.

My reasoning--and Paul already said this, but just restating--is that "current speed" is treated as a "lookup": at the time the card is resolved, you find out what speed is "current speed" (specifically, what speed is on the dial) and change the maneuver chart for that speed. It's an atomic event that makes a change until it is reverted back by another atomic event (specifically, the "end of its activation" trigger on Jerry). It is not specified that the maneuver chart modification follows a change of current speed: the speed 1 chart was modified because it was"current speed" at the time the Jerry event resolved, but is tied to speed 1, NOT current speed as such.

I'm thinking of it like Current Speed is a pointer to the Speed 1 object. At the the start of Determine Course, Current Speed points to Speed 1 on the maneuver chart because the speed dial is set to 1. Jerry resolves, follows the Current Speed pointer to the Speed 1 object, and changes its maneuver chart. Then the player resolves a nav dial to increase the speed dial to 2, thereby changing the Current Speed pointer to point at the Speed 2 object instead. This does nothing to the Speed 1 object, because that function has already been resolved. Then, you resolve Jerry again (no restriction on multiple resolutions because "during" isn't inherently limited), which this time follows the Current Speed pointer that is now pointing at the Speed 2 object, modifying the Speed 2 maneuver chart. Then you make the first move according to the Current Speed, which points to Speed 2 and retrieves the maneuver table as modified, which is II-I. Then ET resolves, which defines an explicit pointer to the Speed 1 object, which is still carrying the modified maneuver chart because the end-of-activation reversion hasn't triggered yet. So the Speed 1 maneuver chart is still II. Then, the activation ends, at which point Jerry reverts both maneuver charts to normal.

That explanation is consistent with the rulings we've had on current speed, movement speed, and that whole ball of wax. But, like I said, I've never seen it played like that and it feels pretty close to rules lawyering. This coming from a guy who is, to a fault, all about rigorous adherence to RAW in games, generally speaking--I probably wouldn't do this.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but this is exclusively applicable to the Interdictor, right? The GSD and Arq both have natural II at speed 1, so it doesn't apply to them.

4 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

That explanation is consistent with the rulings we've had on current speed, movement speed, and that whole ball of wax. But, like I said, I've never seen it played like that and it feels pretty close to rules lawyering. This coming from a guy who is, to a fault, all about rigorous adherence to RAW in games, generally speaking--I probably wouldn't do this.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but this is exclusively applicable to the Interdictor, right? The GSD and Arq both have natural II at speed 1, so it doesn't apply to them.

Yes, this is Interdictor-only (unless someone wants to be a real rule-jerk and tries to get opponents for declaring JJ before declaring speed change).

Wait so you use nav to go from 1 to 2. Use jerry while on 1. Then on 2 you dont get jerry but you get him during engine techs since that is 1 again?

Convoluted for just one more yaw option.

37 minutes ago, Xeletor said:

Wait so you use nav to go from 1 to 2. Use jerry while on 1. Then on 2 you dont get jerry but you get him during engine techs since that is 1 again?

Convoluted for just one more yaw option.

Not exactly. You use him twice. You can do this because he's not limited ("during" doesn't have a defined timing and thus isn't inherently limited to once/occurrence like "when" and "while").

You start at speed 1.
Resolve Jerry so your Speed 1 chart is now II.
Resolve a Nav command to increase Current Speed to 2.
Jerry a second time so your Speed 2 chart is now II-I.
Move at Speed 2 with a II-I maneuver chart.
Exhaust and resolve Engine Techs.
Move at Speed 1 with a II maneuver chart.
Activation ends, triggering the end of the Jerry effects and reverting both maneuver charts to normal.

Emphasizing again, though, that this is all hypothetical and you are unlikely to have a TO (or opponent) sympathetic to this position unless you've talked to them about it ahead of time.

50 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Not exactly. You use him twice. You can do this because he's not limited ("during" doesn't have a defined timing and thus isn't inherently limited to once/occurrence like "when" and "while").

You start at speed 1.
Resolve Jerry so your Speed 1 chart is now II.
Resolve a Nav command to increase Current Speed to 2.
Jerry a second time so your Speed 2 chart is now II-I.
Move at Speed 2 with a II-I maneuver chart.
Exhaust and resolve Engine Techs.
Move at Speed 1 with a II maneuver chart.
Activation ends, triggering the end of the Jerry effects and reverting both maneuver charts to normal.

Emphasizing again, though, that this is all hypothetical and you are unlikely to have a TO (or opponent) sympathetic to this position unless you've talked to them about it ahead of time.

Use a Nav dial and you only need to Jerry once!

2 minutes ago, Visovics said:

Use a Nav dial and you only need to Jerry once!

You mean to use the extra yaw on click 1 instead of jerry? With double jerry i can use it on click 2? 3 double yaws. I think that's the point where many oponents flip the table. Will use with caution.

Just now, Xeletor said:

You mean to use the extra yaw on click 1 instead of jerry? With double jerry i can use it on click 2? 3 double yaws. I think that's the point where many oponents flip the table. Will use with caution.

Engineer next round to get all damage recovered as well and people ragequit

On 11/12/2017 at 4:14 PM, Ardaedhel said:

Not exactly. You use him twice. You can do this because he's not limited ("during" doesn't have a defined timing and thus isn't inherently limited to once/occurrence like "when" and "while").

You start at speed 1.
Resolve Jerry so your Speed 1 chart is now II.
Resolve a Nav command to increase Current Speed to 2.
Jerry a second time so your Speed 2 chart is now II-I.
Move at Speed 2 with a II-I maneuver chart.
Exhaust and resolve Engine Techs.
Move at Speed 1 with a II maneuver chart.
Activation ends, triggering the end of the Jerry effects and reverting both maneuver charts to normal.

Emphasizing again, though, that this is all hypothetical and you are unlikely to have a TO (or opponent) sympathetic to this position unless you've talked to them about it ahead of time.

Oh I haven't revisited this post till now. So I can pull the 135° turn with interdictor if it is speed 1 and I have a nav dial to go 2? ☺

Sounds needlessly convoluted though?

On 11/12/2017 at 9:14 AM, Ardaedhel said:

Not exactly. You use him twice. You can do this because he's not limited ("during" doesn't have a defined timing and thus isn't inherently limited to once/occurrence like "when" and "while").

You start at speed 1.
Resolve Jerry so your Speed 1 chart is now II.
Resolve a Nav command to increase Current Speed to 2.
Jerry a second time so your Speed 2 chart is now II-I.
Move at Speed 2 with a II-I maneuver chart.
Exhaust and resolve Engine Techs.
Move at Speed 1 with a II maneuver chart.
Activation ends, triggering the end of the Jerry effects and reverting both maneuver charts to normal.

Emphasizing again, though, that this is all hypothetical and you are unlikely to have a TO (or opponent) sympathetic to this position unless you've talked to them about it ahead of time.

I am a bit lost.

Why not just speed up to 2, JJ, ET+JJ?

ET make you perform a speed 1 maneuver. Performing a maneuver has its own Determine Course Step. Use him then.

The ship didn't ended its activation.

What I am missing?

Ginkapo answered that in the second post.

Ginkapo answered that in the second post.

2 hours ago, Cactus said:

Ginkapo answered that in the second post.

I got that. I don't understand why ardaedhel talk about using JJ twice during the same step. It seems unnecessary.

Edit: I finally undertood what ardaedhel was arguing. Okay. I got it now.

However even if JJ is restricted to once per Determined Curse Step, it doesn't solve anything.

Entrapment Formation could be use to allows him with ETs.