And yes, I am in an aggressively handing out shame kind of mood. Been one of those kind of weeks haha. Need me some IA to calm me down......

21 minutes ago, wannabepudge said:

How does one go about practicing against the swarm if we are shaming everyone away from it haha

I was planning on looking for someone to play me on Vassal with their Ug list.

Any takers? :-)

-ryanjamal

37 minutes ago, Fightwookies said:

Man, now I kind of want some Christmas monopoly with the family. It’s been a while since we’ve had good reason to yell at each other.

*back on topic:

be nice to ugnaught players. They’re people too.

Risk or Axis and Allies for us. Everyone knows that Germany should always attack Russia first round! Gawd.

And ya, if it's legal, what can you do?

41 minutes ago, NeverBetTheFett said:

Risk or Axis and Allies for us. Everyone knows that Germany should always attack Russia first round! Gawd.

UK or bust.

Imo, that question DOES comes down to the player.

I'm all for winning when playing a competitive game. What's the purpose of playing a game if not to compete and try to win? No one likes being a loser no matter how much they may convince themselves and others. Play your best list and try to get those dice.

However, I'm also a believer in having a good, healthy competitive spirit and just because something is "legal" doesn't mean you should do it. If there's enough vibes from a community that some parts are collectively as a group agreeing not to play a list in tournaments, that should answer your question imo. Also, if you're justifying a list based on the sole fact that it's legal, that should be another clue. It's still the player that makes the decision to field a list. They should know and accept the responsibilities of running that list, especially if it's a less than popular one. In the end, all you may be doing is cheating yourself out of a fulfilling experience too.

As for the Ug swarm, I have luckily not faced one yet. I'm dreading that day from what I've read about it. It sounds like a negative experience that takes the competitive spirit out of the game to me. Experience is a good teacher, but learning from someone else's experience is even more valuable. And from the sounds of it, I will never play it and I hope I never see it.

That's my two cents.

5 hours ago, wannabepudge said:

I mean if I don't make top 8, there will be tables upended

Dice or bust!

I can't stop watching James Bond flip a game of Monopoly. Hilarious!

5 hours ago, wannabepudge said:

How does one go about practicing against the swarm if we are shaming everyone away from it haha

I can show you how it works on Vassal if you want.

58 minutes ago, cleardave said:

Can we all just give it a rest with this Ug Swarm bashing already? I get that it's widely unpopular, but since it's a perfectly legal build, nobody should need to be called out for simply bringing a competitive list to a competitive premier event.

Hmmm... I get what you're saying. If a list is legal then by definition it is ok to take it to a tournament. The ire should be directed at FFG as the arbiters of the rules. However, if you take list that can only result in an unpleasant experience for your opponent neither should there be any surprise if you get called pejorative names.

2 hours ago, Alastairk said:

Hmmm... I get what you're saying. If a list is legal then by definition it is ok to take it to a tournament. The ire should be directed at FFG as the arbiters of the rules. However, if you take list that can only result in an unpleasant experience for your opponent neither should there be any surprise if you get called pejorative names.

Maybe it's just me but losing sucks in general. It doesn't matter to me if it's Ugnaughts or Vader bashing my head in. Imo unless you lose to Ugnaughts on Raining Freight(which could possibly be unwinnable or dang near close to it) then you probably got outplayed at some point. If you think the Junk Droid is going to be prevalent at your tourney then bring something with a shot at beating it. It's not this all powerful unbeatable list that the forums sometimes make it out to be.

3 hours ago, Alastairk said:

However, if you take list that can only result in an unpleasant experience for your opponent neither should there be any surprise if you get called pejorative names.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with this point.

If the competitive Skirmish meta is so far gone that taking Ug Swarms is the only way to achieve victory, then we need FFG to rebalance this or we all need to pick a new game. I don't believe, especially with Heart of the Empire out, that Ug Swarms are the be-all, end-all to top tier success. It's biggest strength is the relative ease with which one can pilot it, making it very accessible to players of all skill levels.

Raining Freight is definitely the mission where this list shines, but in reality, other than a 6-round Swiss, it's not even a sure thing you'll see the mission come up, and if you do, it only matters if your opponent is running the list.

For some easy math, assume a 4 round Swiss, with 50% of the field taking the Ug Swarm as a reasonable scenario to account for "everyone" wanting the hotness of Ug Swarms but realistically having people making meta calls with counter lists, running other things out of preference, running other things out of protest, etc.

A better statistician than me can crunch the numbers but that means that you have, assuming you're not running Ugs yourself, something like a 15-20% chance of actually not only drawing the specific mission but getting paired with one of the 50% of the Ug players?

Now on to the NPE component;

As a player, you are expected, not just morally, but by the rules of the tournament documentation, to behave is a respectful and sporting manner. Worst-case scenario that means your Evil Ug Swarm Opponent is sitting in cold silence, taking you apart on the board, and you lose. Take that loss, shake their hand, thank them for the game and get on with your life.

Anyone that's played me on the table knows I'm pretty easy to work with, and can be as chatty or non-chatty about the game as you want. I've played against Ug Swarms and had a fun time working through it with my opponent.

Other than the ~20% chance that your day at the tournament involves pairing with Ugs on Raining Freight as outlined above, assuming it's actually unwinnable if you're not running the Ugs in that matchup, then it's one loss you can't control on your day, and your player skill should still carry you to Top 8 where you can get your dice and celebrate.

If you're going to actually rag on people for running the list, then you're not exactly behaving in that sporting manner that is expected of us all in these circumstances.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to face derision if I took Ugs to Regionals. It wouldn't even disappoint me, as I expect people to overreact to things that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I know not everyone can act professionally in public, and all bets are off when humans get behind their computer screens. But, as a community, we all have to aim to be better than that if we want to attract and maintain a healthy competitive environment.

We're not playing for $50,000 in cash prizes here, just some plastic dice and maybe a nerdy trophy, neither of which are the types of achievements people typically list on their CV/LinkedIn profiles.

1 hour ago, TheUnsullied said:

Imo unless you lose to Ugnaughts on Raining Freight(which could possibly be unwinnable or dang near close to it) then you probably got outplayed at some point. If you think the Junk Droid is going to be prevalent at your tourney then bring something with a shot at beating it.

That's the spirit, soldier!

Accountability for your wins and losses is where it's at. Sometimes you might actually lose to a perfect storm of bad luck in a dice-based game, you might even actually win when you didn't "deserve it" for the same reason. These are a small fraction of your games over a long enough run through the tournaments, and all other results had more to do with player agency and the decisions that were (or were not) made along the way.

1 hour ago, cleardave said:

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with this point.

If the competitive Skirmish meta is so far gone that taking Ug Swarms is the only way to achieve victory, then we need FFG to rebalance this or we all need to pick a new game. I don't believe, especially with Heart of the Empire out, that Ug Swarms are the be-all, end-all to top tier success. It's biggest strength is the relative ease with which one can pilot it, making it very accessible to players of all skill levels.

Raining Freight is definitely the mission where this list shines, but in reality, other than a 6-round Swiss, it's not even a sure thing you'll see the mission come up, and if you do, it only matters if your opponent is running the list.

For some easy math, assume a 4 round Swiss, with 50% of the field taking the Ug Swarm as a reasonable scenario to account for "everyone" wanting the hotness of Ug Swarms but realistically having people making meta calls with counter lists, running other things out of preference, running other things out of protest, etc.

A better statistician than me can crunch the numbers but that means that you have, assuming you're not running Ugs yourself, something like a 15-20% chance of actually not only drawing the specific mission but getting paired with one of the 50% of the Ug players?

Now on to the NPE component;

As a player, you are expected, not just morally, but by the rules of the tournament documentation, to behave is a respectful and sporting manner. Worst-case scenario that means your Evil Ug Swarm Opponent is sitting in cold silence, taking you apart on the board, and you lose. Take that loss, shake their hand, thank them for the game and get on with your life.

Anyone that's played me on the table knows I'm pretty easy to work with, and can be as chatty or non-chatty about the game as you want. I've played against Ug Swarms and had a fun time working through it with my opponent.

Other than the ~20% chance that your day at the tournament involves pairing with Ugs on Raining Freight as outlined above, assuming it's actually unwinnable if you're not running the Ugs in that matchup, then it's one loss you can't control on your day, and your player skill should still carry you to Top 8 where you can get your dice and celebrate.

If you're going to actually rag on people for running the list, then you're not exactly behaving in that sporting manner that is expected of us all in these circumstances.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to face derision if I took Ugs to Regionals. It wouldn't even disappoint me, as I expect people to overreact to things that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I know not everyone can act professionally in public, and all bets are off when humans get behind their computer screens. But, as a community, we all have to aim to be better than that if we want to attract and maintain a healthy competitive environment.

We're not playing for $50,000 in cash prizes here, just some plastic dice and maybe a nerdy trophy, neither of which are the types of achievements people typically list on their CV/LinkedIn profiles.

I absolutley agree that people should be free to take competative lists, and should not be criticised for doing so. With the Ugnaut swarm there are two aspects to the debate; that the list is both strong within the current meta, and results in underwhelming experience for the opponent. No player should be criticised for taking a strong list to a tournament. If a narrow range of lists dominate then any criticism should be directed towards the rules (thankfully post Heart of the Empire there seem to be a fairly diverse range of "top" lists). Where I think we disagree is that I do think players should show some consideration to their opponents in list selection.

Hypothetical question: if someone selected a list that was definately not near the top of the meta, but which was horrible to play against (I'm sure somone is inventive enough to provide an example here), can they be criticised?

7 minutes ago, Alastairk said:

Where I think we disagree is that I do think players should show some consideration to their opponents in list selection.

The consideration you should show your opponent is not delaying the game, showing up on time, having your materials ready to go, and making your moves in a timely manner. Play in total silence but for declaring actions if you want.

I don't think strictly speaking it matters what list you bring, and if your opponent is going to get their subjective feelings worked up over what you chose to bring, then that's their own issue they need to work out on their own, outside the gaming environment, possibly with a therapist.

As I stated before, I've heard much griping in this game (never mind other competitive games and their comparable, "NPE" lists/decks) about previously annoying builds to play against, like Luke/Rangers, Weequays, Banthas, all at different points in the game's history.

The first Worlds for IA was the worst thing to happen to Star Wars since Revenge of the Sith. I couldn't bother to watch the Finals because it was just plain boring. That said, the 4x4 world was very decisively errata'ed and we've been better off for it in terms of diversity, but the damage done to the game's early competitive scene might have been a reason why our turnouts never took off, but this last point is getting way off into conjecture now.

Quote

Hypothetical question: if someone selected a list that was definately not near the top of the meta, but which was horrible to play against (I'm sure somone is inventive enough to provide an example here), can they be criticised?

In this scenario, I'd hope that we can still play it out like two professionals and win or lose, I'll move on to the next round. Fortunately for us, the match length is an hour of your time, and on the high end might involve a dozen models to move around on a grid. I remember playing some games of 40k back in the day against a real swarm army, where countless Orks or what have you need to be tediously setup on the board, and individually moved one at a time with a tape measure.

In a friendly game you could go to the bathroom or finish writing your novel in the downtime, but in a competitive game you're essentially forced to stand there and watch to ensure the integrity of the game is being upheld and that your opponent isn't trying to gain an inch or two off of you. And that's before anyone even starts debating line of sight.

So for IA, I can't imagine how it ends well for the community if we're busting someone's chops over the list they chose to bring out. The snobbery of gaming is always there in the ether; elitist players scoffing at janky noob lists, painters scoffing at poorly painted/unpainted models, poorly/unpainted model players scoffing at the "wasted time" of skilled painters' models, and so on. None of this is really good for anybody in the hobby.

If you go to a Regional, and your opponent, hungry for their dice, drops down that Ug Swarm, introduce yourself if you don't know them, make some small talk while you both get set up, shake hands, wish the other person luck and have at it. If you're not running Ugs and they are, AND it happens to be that 20% hit on Raining Freight like we talked about above, then maybe consider scooping and grabbing an early lunch? These experiences are really what we all make of it. So bring what you want, play to the intensity and skill level to which you are accustomed, take home whatever swag you earn and maybe try and make a new friend while you're at it.

My local meta's not super-competitive and I've never even played a game against Ugnaughts, so I don't really have a strong opinion on this, but to be honest I can see both sides.

I get why somebody would bring the swarm to a premiere event, and personally I don't think I'd hold it against them. If someone's coming out to win and they want to maximize their chances, well, power to them. But, at the same time, if they're bringing something that they know other people don't enjoy playing against then they've also going to have to learn to live with everything that comes with that. @cleardave, your snowflake comment works the other way, too: if I'm doing something that's known to make things less enjoyable for some of the people I'm playing against, I don't think I have a right to be protected against those people's negative opinions of my actions.

I should make it clear, though, that I'm not talking about being rude. If somebody is acting like a jerk then that's a problem with them, and I don't care if they're playing 6 Ugnaughts/IG-88 or 5 Wampas/Dengar. Like it's been said above, nobody goes out to play with plastic star wars toys expecting to be berated.

But if someone gives you some good-natured ribbing or makes a small comment in an otherwise friendly game? Well, I kind of think that's what you signed up for when you brought a list that people view as unfun and/or unfair.

17 minutes ago, ManateeX said:

@cleardave, your snowflake comment works the other way, too: if I'm doing something that's known to make things less enjoyable for some of the people I'm playing against, I don't think I have a right to be protected against those people's negative opinions of my actions.

Negative opinions are fine. We're all allowed to think what we what to think. It's when its starts to drift into character attack mode that I raise an eyebrow at the people in the community doing the Ugnaught shaming. Take your Ug swarm to Regionals, because haters gonna hate, and take your prize if that's what it truly ultimately takes to win. It's then up to all of us to decide if the Ugs have truly ruined the game, just like Luke/Rangers ruined the game, Weequays ruined the game, Nal Hutta Swamps with Rangers ruined the game, but it looks like we're still all here.

It's actually even worse right now because we do have more options in terms of creating difficult matchups for the list, so it should be less of a concern, not more.

Ultimately, like you mentioned above, it's about not being rude to people about it, whether in person, or online here.

Unless of course an individual is leading the anti-Ug campaign as part of a long-con to shame everyone into NOT running the list so they can be the sole player with it at Regionals and take the whole thing. I would have to at least respect that particular Devious Scheme for its low cunning and execution.

To your last point about good-natured ribbing, I'm with you 100% People do need a thick skin in the world out there, and if you sat down with your Ug list and your opponent said "Here we go..." and then the rest of the game was two people having a courteous match of IA, then that's a good place to be.

I would be embarrassed for everyone involved if in a similar situation, someone flopped an Ug swarm and some organized booing ensued.

23 hours ago, cleardave said:

Some of these viewpoints I read lead me to think that parts of this community have adopted the ultra-left-wing snowflake mentality that seems to be eroding critical thinking across North American college and university campuses. Do you all want Fantasy Flight to make a "safe space" tournament system for Organized Play so only victim-culture-approved lists can be run, subject to Social Justice Warrior oversight?

So if you're going to be a snowflake about it, you'll be in similar company at the bottom of the Swiss and you can all play together. The play-to-win mentality will bring their top tier list and battle against other like-minded folks for the fancy dice in a death or glory battle.

For everyone else who would rather leave the identity politics out of their Imperial Assault

(Bold text added) Really? I think you've done enough of introducing your own identity politics. Doesn't matter about Ug swarms or not.. or whether you approve of them.. or not.

It's just the use of this forum to introduce your own politics that diminishes your point (which seems pretty straight forward: Ug swarm is completely legal, so deal with it)

or maybe it's just the ultra-right-wing snowflake mentality that has eroded critical thinking? Sheesh, can't even play IA without this kind of noise creeping in.

1 hour ago, --JP said:

(Bold text added) Really? I think you've done enough of introducing your own identity politics. Doesn't matter about Ug swarms or not.. or whether you approve of them.. or not.

It's just the use of this forum to introduce your own politics that diminishes your point (which seems pretty straight forward: Ug swarm is completely legal, so deal with it)

or maybe it's just the ultra-right-wing snowflake mentality that has eroded critical thinking? Sheesh, can't even play IA without this kind of noise creeping in.

I like throwing those examples out there to compare with one of my other points, that at the end of the day we're playing a game with plastic Star Wars toys (not advancing society, per se) and that we are also doing so in the format of a contest where the winner takes home some neat looking plastic and cardboard, as opposed to some relatively valuable prize for their efforts like a large cash sum.

Accepting the Ugs, or for that matter the next hotness that comes out that becomes popular at the top tables at these events, can be empowering and motivating to come up with solutions to the list itself by going counter-meta, or just finding ways to play around it with existing builds. These are solutions that advance the meta diversity, as they will provide valuable data to those that don't get to play often with some options to consider when they bring an un-vetted list to their next large event.

Wouldn't it be a better showing at a tournament to be the one that takes down the Dreaded Ug Swarm with something clever, rather than taking down the character of the person who won the day using what they felt was their best chance at success? You actually get a trophy for doing the former.

On 12/9/2017 at 10:04 AM, cleardave said:

Some of these viewpoints I read lead me to think that parts of this community have adopted the ultra-left-wing snowflake mentality that seems to be eroding critical thinking across North American college and university campuses. Do you all want Fantasy Flight to make a "safe space" tournament system for Organized Play so only victim-culture-approved lists can be run, subject to Social Justice Warrior oversight? This is nonsense.

[...]it's because someone wanted it enough to not care about Imperial Assault Social Justice, showed up with a top tier list, and won.

[...] how their virtue-signalling meant that because they took a sub-optimal jank list, they were better people than their "boring" opponents that opted for the top-tier in order to win their tournament prizes.

So if you're going to be a snowflake about it, you'll be in similar company at the bottom of the Swiss and you can all play together. The play-to-win mentality will bring their top tier list and battle against other like-minded folks for the fancy dice in a death or glory battle.

For everyone else who would rather leave the identity politics out of their Imperial Assault and just play a ******* game about little plastic Star Wars figures pretending to shoot and hack away on each other, I'll see you at Regionals!

17 hours ago, ThatJakeGuy said:

Didn't those guys also secretly harbour General Grievous and the whole Separatist Council? It's been a while since I saw the movie but I seem to recall that line, and then the lead figure whispering something in Obi-Wan's ear to the effect of "...but also they're totally here"

Dave, you could have made your point without the "hurr durr liberals suck, kids these days, amirite?" start to your comments. I ignored the rest of your posts because of that nonsense start. Try to be better.

Just to update anyone that was curious, we had no ugnaughts at md regionals. As far as tournaments go it was extremely friendly and relaxed. A lot of us were experimenting with new lists. I'm sure bringing ugnaughts wouldn't have been a problem though; the east coast community is very competitive, but we also all know and like each other. I think some of the players actually wanted to face an ugnaught list to see if their Vader lists held up.

I definitely would have preferred to see Ughs, as Ira and I practiced a reasonable amount to make sure our Vader lists had a fairly strong game against them (assuming not Raining Freight). That Han/Luke winning list was interesting. I like seeing the uniques being worth taking once again.

4 minutes ago, pheaver said:

I definitely would have preferred to see Ughs, as Ira and I practiced a reasonable amount to make sure our Vader lists had a fairly strong game against them (assuming not Raining Freight). That Han/Luke winning list was interesting. I like seeing the uniques being worth taking once again.

What did you Vader lists end up looking like? Or is it a trade secret?

I doubt Ira or I are playing again until Worlds, due to the lack of events in our area, so I have no issues posting our lists.

Ira's was Vader, Palp, 2 eJet, 2 officer, Zillo. Lucas also ran it and came in 2nd, I believe. They separately came up with the list, as far as I know, without talking to one another beforehand. Lucas was my only loss, too: I won the Vader war, but he killed all my other guys and tagged 4 patrons.

I ran Vader, 2 eSentry, 3 officer, Zillo. The eSentries pack a huge punch, and had longer range than the eJets. Opponents often get this horrible choice of "he shoved Vader in my face and I did half damage to him. Do I finish off Vader with almost all of my attacks this turn or switch targets to the Sentries who sniped me last turn and are setting up double taps for this turn?"