Adam France said:

Dunno but from the sounds of things you moved away from playing all together cause you have obviously missed the point at what I was getting at. If your not interested in this game because you "cannot find character depth in it" then I guess this game is not for you. But I wouldn't sit there and complain about it if you don't feel your years of gaming knowledge and experience cannot help you in creating indepth stories with the backof an epic war. I'm sure the dwarves and elves will welcome you home and put flowers in your hair if you so choose.

CanadianPittbull said:

Oh please, this is me now rolling my eyes. I play every week, at least once, sometimes twice. I also have created and shared a fair deal of work recently toward the 40K area. Here are a few links;

http://darkreign40k.com/forum/index.php?topic=3369.0

http://darkreign40k.com/forum/index.php?topic=3376.0

http://darkreign40k.com/forum/index.php?topic=3239.0

http://darkreign40k.com/forum/index.php?topic=3238.0

http://darkreign40k.com/forum/index.php?topic=3235.0

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=123&efcid=3&efidt=235111&efpag=0

As you clearly feel you are better qualified to discuss a 40K rpg perhaps you could direct me to your own online contributions to the 40K rpg comunity? A fan of your long years will I'm sure have provided us all with reams of setting detail and ideas ...

Sounds to me like you're conceited with your experience and unable/unwilling to open up to the opinions of others.

CanadianPittbull said:

Personally, I hope our GM takes us on an adventure to the quicky mart so we can buy slushies and talk about what we'll be doing that Friday Night.

Artemesia said:

Respectfully I disagree. I have repeatedly stated I think DW can be done well, and where I disagree with the desirability of some of the suggested modes of play (notably the suggested mode of turning war movies into sessions or campaigns) I have asked for opinions/advice on how my fears will be incorrect. As an example, check my post above where I ask a specific question about a specific point raised, re the movie Black Hawk Down.

I asked; In Black Hawk Down, where is the non-combat interaction with npcs? Yes, there would be interaction with your own side, but other than that I don't see much in the way to provide a well rounded rpg session beyond a looong string of connected combat encounters.

To which I received no real answer, only a suggestion the game clearly wasn't for me and I should basically shut up and go away.

In an earlier post there was an intimation I didn't really know how to GM/roleplay.

As I feel my work for the 40k rpg could reasonably be regarded as extensive and (imho) of a fair quality, I felt it quite acceptable and not at all rude to enlighten the poster as to my previous experience with the 40K setting and rpg. As Canadianpitbull has made these accusations/attacks, and has previously mentioned his own years as a 40k fan (the reason my own experience was first mentioned btw), I think it fair enough and not in the least conceited that I ask him to put his money where his mouth is and link us to his contributions to the 40k rpg community.

I'm not suggesting if he hasn't contributed anything of note to the fan community his opinion means nothing, merely that his suggestions that 40k isn't really for me and I should go off and play with the faeries, are rather ... presumptuous.

Adam France said:

Well for my part I tend to agree with your assessment. War movies really aren't a compelling model for a roleplaying campaign, at least not in my opinion. I tend to feel the real potential for roleplaying when it comes to DW is having to deal with the Imperial bureaucracy and the Inquisition. Such institutions pose many challenges for an Astartes, and help to really bring to life what it is to be a Space Marine versus a normal human within the Imperium. Now I also tend to think sessions that are all about Marine kickassness will be great, but they do need to be balanced out by more subtle elements. Right now that's how I'm planning to run a DW campaign.

First of all Mr. France whether or not I contribute copious amounts of fan based material is irrelevant and means absolutely nothing. To make such a statement means that you are not only calling me out on said contributions but everyone else that posts on these boards who share their gaming experiences and or opinions on the subject matter at hand. If one can contribute so much material and has so many years of experience gaming then one should find no problem in putting that said experience to easy use with any system and on any subject matter.

I was merely kidding around with the Dwarves and Elves bit as I had posted a at the end there but it apparently got lost in translation as you felt I slighted your gaming knowledge or that the game was not for you. I guess if one is as much a fan as you are stating (and like others on this board) of the 40K universe and Space Marines in general. I find it really hard to swallow that a fan such as yourself or any for that matter would throw the proverbial towel in on a RPG product a lot of us "fans" have been waiting on for years by claiming that it is not a viable RPG when any real details are still forthcoming. That my friend is presumptuous.

CanadianPittbull said:

It might indeed be presumptuous ... if I had in fact done that. In fact I keep stating, pretty much in every post I make here, I have NOT 'thrown in the towel' on the game. If I had I wouldn't bother posting here. I believe I may well buy and play DW, however I do have my doubts and worries about the nitty-gritty specifics of making well-rounded rpg sessions around a (nearly) all marine party. Odd that you should say I have abandoned hope for the game, when you yourself keep suggesting I do that very thing.

Re your first point above, I specifically state in my post;

I'm not suggesting if he hasn't contributed anything of note to the fan community his opinion means nothing, merely that his suggestions that 40k isn't really for me and I should go off and play with the faeries, are rather ... presumptuous.

I stand by that opinion.

Atheosis said:

Yep, agreed, some of the non-combat stuff would be with other Imperials (good and bad) who in some way oppose (non-violently) the pc's in whatever they're doing. That would work for a start, I'm not sure it's the only or best way to address non-violent aspects of a DW game though.

I like the envoy aspect of Space Marines that's touched on in one of the DDs, I think some form of interaction with friends, neutrals, and enemies, at a diplomatic level (to some degree - naturally we don't want to make Space Marines politicians ) might also flesh out a campaign. I have a couple of ideas as to how to do this, one is a campaign based around sending a team of marines (probably not DW, but from a single Chapter) to a planet that needs to be returned to Imperial compliance, which has 3 or 4 seperate nations on it. The pc marines will have to ally themselves with 1 or more of the nations in order to get the firepower to take the whole world. This will require them deciding 'who's the closest to Imperial orthodoxy here?' and can provide me as a GM the chance to mess with them in non-violent ways.

Another idea I had is to have the pcs be members of a Chapter that is kinda attached to the Officio Assassinorum (in a similar way to those Chapters which are loosely connected to the Inquisition). The Chapter, as well as doing typical Marine stuff, also on occasion deploys squads to provide extra-muscle and back-up to assassins. My thinking is this would give a great deal of roleplaying potential as they help assassins succeed in missions. Maybe...

Adam France said:

That is not a route I would go if I were you. While a Temple Assassin is deadlier than all but the most skilled Marines (many Captains and Chapter Masters would eat them for lunch mind you), no self-respecting Chapter would ever play a supporting role to what can best be seen as an automaton. There isn't any honor in such a role. In fact, it's rather demeaning. Likewise, Temple Assassins are designed to work alone, and so aren't going to be helped by having Marines around "backing them up". If the Officio Assassinorium were to determine that an Assassin needed backup they'd just send another from the same Temple.

from france

does anyone try it during several game? what is the feeling about it?

To be honest it allows a great opportunity to explore "Big Game Hunt" sessions, figuring out how to kill the creature. This is the most exciting part for me as we have investigation in DH; galactic exploration and trade in RT.

Deathwatch provides Kill Team games and possible high level political conflcits, rallying humans vs overwhelming odds as superhero like characters, search and rescue missions, investigations in harsh climates/conditions that other players couldn't access. Then inter-chapter conflict, hunting Rogue Inquisitors, Chaos Marine battles, playing as a single marine amongst a mass battlefield. Lots of options. Add in all the new weapons, armour, monsters, spaceships, PC options for mixed campaigns with RT and DH; can't wait.

Baz

Santiago said:

Santiago said:

How could you NOT want to play a SPACE MARINE... even if at its worst it's kicking Xenos butt on a nasty bug hunt/ dungeon crawl... it will still rock my world. Oh I'm sorry I want to play a character that has feelings and really torture myself in the role playing experience... Bah. I am a Space Marine - I am invincible . Give me a bolter, a chainsword, some Tyranid, a massive Space Hulk and I will be in very happy heaven for a few hours slaughtering everything in my path in the name of the EMPEROR....

phew. now that I have that out of my system.

I think like DH and RT this will be what you make it. If you want it to be a combat heavy game with lots of dice rolling that is what it will be. If you want it to be an intense role playing experience then that is what it will be. It really depends on how you approach it. Embrace the setting. So you want some drama and some "real" role-playing then make the fearless know fear. There is nothing worse than being the biggest baddest guys around and finding out that really you arent that invincible. You think a Space Marine can't get hurt? Some scenarios...
- "Oh we just walked into a room and found a river of pustulating ooze and Harry stepped in it, just went all crazy and tried to shoot me in the back... he's disappeared and now we have to find him. You know what we have to do. You know he would do this for me"
- "Oh crap, the Terminator Librarians didn't all make it back from cleaning out the Chaos infestation in the temple - you have 27 minutes to retrieve Brother Gladius' armour and gene seed before the virus bombs are dropped. Dont leave the planet without them"
- "Oh the Chapter thinks we all perished on the recon mission but really we are trapped in the middle of the space hulk and the bolter ammo is running out. We have to get back to the ship.... and here come another wave of genestealers".
- "I realise we have been ordered to follow the Inquisitor but frankly I thought we were here to exterminate the Xenos, not negotiate with the Xenos."

For inspiration... read Horus Heresy series; The Forever War by Joe Haldeman; Starship Troopers (the book not the movie) by Robert Heinlen, Space Marine by Ian Watson has some great stuff about becoming a Space Marine in the Imperial Fists - if you can find it as it is out of print. Then watch Aliens. (I guess series such as Band of Brothers etc would be good too but I sort of see them as a being a little too soft and "touchy feely" for Space Marines)

If you can't get some good dramatic ideas from these sources then I throw my hands in the air and say its ok, go and play DH or RT :-)

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

Atheosis said:

Hiyas!

The "Third Reich" was called 3rd (Government) for a reason!

L

Each game in the line up being offered by FFG are most likely going to have a different feel to it.

Rogue Trader: Exploring the galaxy while making money for the imperium.

Dark Heresy: Investigating and routing out threats to the Imperium and mankind.

Deathwatch: Responding to imminent threats to the Imperium.

I think this game will have a different feel specifically because it really leads itself towards episodic adventures. I'm not sure in this game that downtime will really be desirable to go through. Who wants to spend time going through training sessions with kill squads as they prepare for their next mission. Most likely they sit around meditating, lifting weights and going to the firing range to practice.

Anyway, I've liked both RT and DH so far, so they've got a commitment from me to at least buy the first book and see what it's all about.

Plus, any additional fluff I can read about space marines is welcome in my book.

Another way of looking at this is, Deathwatch character creation combined with elements from Disciples of the Dark Gods equals and endless mix of evil bad guys for the PC's in DH: Ascension to come up against.

Chaos awaits....

I was talking with my DH GM today and we were wondering about how this game would work in the roleplaying sense. I mean DH is already pretty violent, so I could only imagine this game might bring on the violence even more.

With that being said, I had a couple of questions about DW and RT: What in these games' rules makes them different from Dark Heresy? OR are they further expansions of source material and new roles to take on? I realize that Rouge Trader will have space ship rules, but are there any machanics that are different than in the system from Dark Heresy?

And other than Space Marines, I am curious what kinds of new rules come into play for Death Watch? Personally, I am expecting something that makes combat more narrative. There can be more to combat than "roll the dice. Did you hit? Okay roll damage. Next player...." in the rules. There have been some games out there that have put those things in the system instead relying on players and GMs to try and volunteer that kind of stuff (which kind of gets messy unless your group has a system to describe action in more detail).

With that in mind, we were trying to decide if an when we should buy Rouge Trader and Death Watch (not that it is an option now) to see if it ads to our Dark Heresy game (since we love the "We investigated, we saw and we blew the F*@k out it" concept as opposed to the CoC game were you go mad or die without even a chance). If the machanics are the same with no real way of enforcing theme, I am curious why they did not make them supplimental material that just has stats for these character types?

First of all I think FF set this up as a matter of scale. DH Cahracters are (at least the start out) pretty weak. RT characters are significantlymore powerful, and DW will be more so. the difference between the three games is more a power level thing than much else.

Also it is important to realize that Death Watch opperates as the military arm of the Ordo Xenos just as the Sisters of Battle do for Ordo Hereticus and the Grey Knights do for Ordo Maleus.

I imagine the adventures will feel like what I thought DH was before I played it. I mean in DH is a few infantry level daemos show up they could really cut through the PC in short order, now imagine what if the cult you are investigating is really trying to summon a greater deamon or a daemon horde. DH PC haev no chance. That Cthulu-ness of the game can be fun. I like DH a great deal, but sometimes players want to play character that have a chance against the real bad guys.

I know a lot of people do not enjoy supper high power games, but I think that is matter of not knowing what to do, or being too powerful for the world, rather than any given power level acutally not being fun. Remember, according to the fluff, space marines are supposed to be super heroes, but in the table top game 40K they are average to pretty good troops. Compair them to a necron. I mean a necron is a bit slower than a space marine, but they are just as strong, just as tuff, and have jsut as thick armor. On top of that, they get up after you kill them.

If you pick up DH or RT planing on role playing in the world of warhammer 40k having only played the table top game (that really is all there is) you will find your PC don't have a chance against just about everything you are used to seeing in the warhammer 40k world. My point is that there is so much stuff at the higher power levels to deal with.

this game will not be about fighting large battles, that is what the table top game is for. But there is som much more for space marines to do where their individual prowess and their realitivly few numbers make them very valuable.

Just think about just about any action adventure movie you ahve ever seen. (Not the war movies)

AWESOME! Thanks Hrathen for that post!

this really hits the nail on the head. you arent going to expect a deathwatch librarian to walk into the local tavern to gather info. the actions demanding of humanity's greatest warriors are planet shaping events of importance.

there are plenty of ordo politics and power struggles taking place, remember you are grouping several chapters together with distinctly differing views on methodology. Space and Ultramarines alone are at constant odds philsophicly as are the angels. right there you have a unifying theme and reason for dispute and opportunities for solid roleplay.

there can be intrigue and discovery as well, have you been called to a planet that is sympathetic towards aliens but still has loyal xenophobic members? why are aliens seiging a otherwise unremarkable agri-world? even steal from brotherhood of the snake and figure a way to deal with an or incursion thats far to big to handle head on. if you have players that simply kick through a wall and waste you npc's then it doesnt matter what sheet you put in front of them, the result will always be the same.

gaftra said:

^ This. This. This. This. This!

How can this be viable? It depends on the GM. Let me tell you a story.
I ran a Marine campaign a while back, it was house rules but my guys had fun and they felt really awesome at the end. This was the basic story, I’ll let you have it gratis, feel free to use it if you want. My guys DH characters had died fighting some uber-bad daemons, well most of them had died, Rick’s Cleric was like freakin immortal, no matter what I tossed at him he always lived, it made me mad after everyone else was on their third character (and no he didn’t cheat I make them roll in my line of sight). The other three guys wanted to play Marines so we made some rules and they were a Deathwatch kill team. One was Ultramarine and another was a Courier of Wrath a chapter I made up. Zach the Courier hated the Ultramarines and carried that into RP-ing calling Josh, the Ultra, Little Blue Boy. So it had the basic PC RP elements (the other one was a Raven Guard and I was an Imperial Fist). The Inquisitor was sending them (and Rick’s cleric) to gather xeno-artifacts the second (the first is special and not for free) one they went after was on an Ork world, mostly battle, no big deal, but it was too big for them to take and there were too many Orks for them to kill and call in a pick up so (as par their orders) they elected, after much debating, to destroy it. They had to sneak in and take it out. The third was on a forge world. But when they got there two of the factories where fighting over the artifact, they had to RP to find out which side to back (which involved rallying that factory) and which side to take out (strategic planning and execution of the battle) because they didn’t know which, if either, side had the thing they were after (because they investigated but didn’t do well with their rolling). Well (after much debating) they backed the wrong side and had to fight the whole other city too (so they ended up destroying both factories with proper application of gas and fire, lol, it was funny). One of them decided to ask the big question, why the Inquisitor wanted these things (if he was a heretic they’d kill him they decided) and they had to RP to get him to spill the beans, he was collecting them to build a case of heresy against another Inquisitor. So, after much debating, they kept working for him. The next artifact lead them to a tomb (a Necron tomb in point-of-fact) on a dead world. They ran across a team working for the other Inquisitor (they decided to talk to them instead of kill them outright, after much debating…a bit of a theme you may notice) who told them their Inquisitor was the traitor and they were gaining evidence against him. Well, since two guys didn’t trust our Inquisitor anyway they decided to work with the NPC’s but they woke up the Necrons in the tomb and had to fight their way out (along the way they almost died to save one of the other team, normal guys after all, which was RP-ing on their part). After a house rules space battle with a Necron fighter and fleeing from the rest of the Necron fleet (on the Rouge Trader ship they had commandeered which took much RP-ing, including treats and bribes; and much debating) they got back to the Inquisitor. They confronted him again and it was decided there would be a trial. They had to take part in it (lots of RP-ing in that) and the story built even farther past that but if you want more you’ll have to start paying me, lol.

...and do we HAVE to go into the "Are Space Marines physically capable of coitus?" thing?

Of course they have emotions. They're just trained to focus and restrain them. Don't you guys read the fluff?

pes·si·mism (ps-mzm)
n.
1. A tendency to stress the negative or unfavorable or to take the gloomiest possible view: "We have seen too much defeatism, too much pessimism, too much of a negative approach" (Margo Jones).
2. The doctrine or belief that this is the worst of all possible worlds and that all things ultimately tend toward evil.
3. The doctrine or belief that the evil in the world outweighs the good.

The dreaded pessimism bug has infected this thread!! Please report to the the nearest commissar!!!!!

miles1739 said:

You mean Chaplain right?

UncleArkie said:

Or Inquisitor...