CanadianPittbull said:

Perhaps it's my twenty plus years of experience as a GM which informs me that there's a big difference between the storyline of a good old fashioned, all action war film and that of a good, engaging, rpg campaign that goes beyond (mainly) being about combat and basic pc on pc interaction. I love some war films that are just combat after combat, with a few emotional moments thrown in between, I would not like a rpg campaign structured along those lines.

It's a massive jump of logic to suggest that because folks like myself who are doubtful about in real terms the actual range of play a group entirely (or largely) made up of Space Marine characters could give GM and players, that means we are worse at roleplaying than you. That's just plain rude and silly imo.

I think there are valid concerns about the sheer power, the degree of discipline, and single mindedness of Space Marines, in an rpg context. I'm not saying it's impossible to do well, but it certainly requires some thought ... unless you just want to play angsty marines blasting big-badguys over and over again, arguing about their Chapter differences, choosing cool new armour and weapons add-ons now and again, and perhaps brooding once in a while about the nature of their existence.

I've yet to see much that convinces me the above won't be what most campaigns will turn out to be. I hope I'm wrong.

Adam France said:

Fact is, we haven't seen much yet at all, so jumping to conclusions in either direction is a bit premature, don't you think? We know that the plan all along was for 3 games set in the 40k universe and that of the 3, Deathwatch would be the one that is more combat oriented. That doesn't mean that combat doesn't have a place in Dark Heresy, or that exploration won't be an option in Deathwatch, just that each game has a particular focus.

That being said, thinking that Deathwatch will only be playable as a string of combat encounters is like saying that D&D 4e can only be played as a string of tactical combat encounters. While I'm sure there are groups that do play D&D that way, and some people would go so far as to claim that that's all there is to 4e, you'll find plenty other people that still manage to do much more than combat with it. I trust FFG will give us a deep RPG experience that isn't as one dimensional as some fear.

mac40k said:

Oh no, 4e D&D reference...

Adam France said:

Well, I've only been GMing for 18 years, but my experience informs me that the above is rubbish. A good, engaging rpg campaign can be about nothing more than combat and pc on pc interaction. Alternatively a good rpg campaign can be based entirely around a military campaign, focusing on winning the conflict but including plenty of RP between the players and a multitude of NPCs - other members of your own forces, enemies, allies (both reluctant and commited), innocents caught up in the battle, opportunists, outside forces trying to interfere in the outcome, spies, assassins, traitors, scape goats, idiots, visionaries...

Anyone who can't see how a military campaign can be engaging and full of roleplaying opportunities isn't trying hard enough.

macd21 said:

I think for some it's simply a matter of tastenot everyone enjoys militaristic roleplaying. For others, as you say, they just aren't really trying to find what would be engaging about such a campaign

Etepete said:

Nietzsche's Ubermensch concept is pretty far removed from a Space Marine.

The Imperium is not fascist.

Why do you insist on using the word "evil"? Thats terribly subjective.

Sci-fi doesn't have to comment on the real world, not everything has to make such direct connections as you are implying. It's a realm of fantasy/fiction that is intended to spark the imagination of the participant - I'd argue that being fettered by all these contemporary comparisons is just harming what good imaginary practices are all about.

But then again, that too is subjective and just my opinion.

Also, for some really good Space Marine reading - you might want to check out Rynn's World by Steve Parker. I think it's a really good example of how you can have a story that is combat-oriented but is full of moral complexity, humanizing the Astartes, and just good storytelling.

BrotherAtrox said:

The Imperium is not fascist.

Hi:

It's just Humanocist (sic)!

L

macd21 said:

I just suspect that in most cases a campaign based around a war movie, where combat greatly outweighs non-violent interaction, is usually going to actually turn into a long grind of similar combat scenes, especially when the protagonists are marines.

I have played looong military based rpg campaigns btw. Notably a Battletech/Mechwarrior campaign which lasted 73 sessions of play - forming many, many years of game play. It can work, as I have said here, I just suspect it will be hard to do easily bearing in mind the space marine factor. I wouldn't go back to the style of play the campaign featured either, just as I wouldn't return to the hack n' slash style D&D I played at school.

Now, you'll note I'm not poo-pooing your experience or opinions here, how about you pay me the same courtesy? You're free to disagree with me (if you must ), I do take offence at semi-veiled insults and sneering attitudes though.

As an end note, as I don't see much point going round and round on this issue, I am sort of coming around to the idea of running a SM campaign when DW comes out, which is a major shift in opinion based around some of the ideas here, from the DDs and from ideas of my own. I still am reticent to use DW as the pc unit however, and have other ideas for an individual Chapter to use. I want to avoid the 'Chapter = personality' trend I am detecting from a lot of the suggestions.

BrotherAtrox said:

Yes, it is. While political scientists still debate as to what constitutes a fascist state, it has been generally accepted that if state possesses a certain number of fascist traits that it is fascist. Not all fascist states possess all of these traits. While the Imperium has a very different government from, say, Mussolini's Italy, it clearly possesses enough fascist traits to be considered a fascist state.

BrotherAtrox said:

It may be subjective, but that doesn't mean it isn't correct and that something cannot be blatantly evil. This is especially true of fictional institutions or individuals, who can be said to be very simply 'evil'. The Imperium is blatantly evil - they are an oppressive, murderous which seeks to destroy all other non-sentient life in the galaxy while doing everything in its power to maintain control over its own populace. If the Imperium was an antagonist nation in another setting they would very blatantly be the bad guys. While individuals in the Imperium may be decent, or their actions may be excused due to ignorance, the Imperium as a whole is undoubtedly evil.

The fact that their enemies are also evil isn't an excuse.

Maybe if you live particularly close to Terra, close to a Segmentum HQ, or on a Space Marine Homeworld - but the sheer size of the Imperium means that they simply can't monitor and control the populace on the levels necessary to be attributed as "fascists".

The Imperium requires that you pay taxes or tithes, that you don't worship anyone but the Emperor, and that you hand over all your Psykers to the Black Ships. Everything else is left up mostly to planetary governors. Imperial power is hefty but it doesn't have the resources to micro-manage that much humanity. That's one of the most flexible parts of the 40K setting - the diversity of worlds/cultures/etc.

For your logic to be true, you would need prove that oppression, murder, and xenophobia were "evil" or inherently bad in some way. And thats a philosophical debate that will pretty much go nowhere. Although I think its interesting that to be a GM in a game like Deathwatch you need to know the game, the fluff, and in many ways know about science, philosophy, literature, art, etc. And have a really awesome imagination.

*EDIT: I don't know whats going on with this thing. I tried to reply to your individual points... couldn't. Then tried to copy-paste them back into one big quote and that didn't work either. Now its showing this so... whatever. Last time I try to quote someone.

macd21 said:

This whole "the Imperium is evil" thing is kind of silly to me. The fact is that in this fictional setting, virtually everything the Imperium does that you are referring to as "evil" is pretty much necessary for the survival of mankind. They purge the xenos because in 40k 80-90% of aliens are hostile towards the existence and survival of humanity (the history of Imperium is actually pretty clear on this). They oppress their people because, unlike the real world, their are very concretes and dangerous consequences of free minds (rogue psykers, chaos cults, daemonic incursions, etc). What you are doing is applying the morality of 21st century Earth to something that is so utterly different as to be absurd.

Even if we only go by the Wikipedia definition of fascism:

"Fascism is a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2][3][4] Fascists seek to organize a nation on corporatist perspectives; values; and systems such as the political system and the economy.[5][6] Scholars generally consider fascism to be on the far right of the conventional left-right political spectrum,[7][8][9][10][11][12] although some scholars claim that fascism has been influenced by both the left and the right.[13][14]

Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.[15] Fascists identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.[16] Fascists claim that culture is created by collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus rejects individualism.[15] In viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, fascists claim that pluralism is a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety.[17][18] Fascism rejects and resists autonomy of cultural or ethnic groups who are not considered part of the fascists' nation and who refuse to assimilate or are unable to be assimilated.[19] Fascists consider attempts to create such autonomy as an affront and threat to the nation.[19]

Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state.[20] Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement.[21]"

The Imperium of Man hits the vast majority of those markers. Like it or not, it is a galactic fascist state, there's no getting away from it.

Also, just because what it is doing is required for the survival of mankind doesn't mean it isn't objectively and subjectively "evil". Have you ever heard of the term "necessary evil"? The entire Imperium (post-Heresy) is founded upon it. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, after all.

MILLANDSON said:

The Imperium would probably like to hit some of those markers but one of the first things you learn in poli-sci class is that the larger and more varied your population gets, the farther you get from the "pure" version of whatever political ideology you adhered to at the outset. On such a scale (billions of worlds) the Imperium cannot maintain the level of authoritarian control and enforcement that we need to label them "fascist". On many worlds, the only symbol of Imperial rule is the Arbites HQ, and I'm sure there are plenty of places that don't even have that. Any organization the Imperium maintains is not through authoritative, iron-fisted rule, but more so the common danger of so many Xenos/Demonic threats. Pay your taxes & tithes, worship only the Emperor, and hand over all your psykers. Outside of that, Imperial control is very loose - that is the opposite of totalitarian control.

The best way I can describe the Imperium is to liken to a really big Feudal system - but even that comparison has many failings.

BrotherAtrox said:

It's a milliion worlds, not billions.

And the definition for fascism given above amuses me seeing as most of it could be applied to a large percentage of governments throughout human history. Roman Empire? Check. Feudal European Kingdoms? Check. Feudal Japan? Check. I could go on...

Yes, it could. But that is pretty much the accepted political definition of fascism, and yes, each of those examples you just gave could well come under the heading of fascistic in nature. Using that accepted definition, the Imperium of Man is, without a doubt, a fascist state.

Had people really missed the obvious similarities between the Inquisition and the Gestapo?

Atheosis said:

Most of it could, and some of those states could be considered fascist. Some of them wouldn't (most feudal nations, for example, definitely were not). The problem with defining whether or not a state is fascist is that there isn't really such a thing as a fascist form of government, like democracy or stalinism. It's more a form of ideology that can be applied to co-opt many forms of government. In the case of the Imperium, it is a fascist theocratic psuedo-feudal state.

MILLANDSON said:

Do tell.

Atheosis said:

They purge the xenos because the Emperor openly stated that the human form is perfection, and wanted a perfect galaxy. Aliens are purged because they are not human. Of course the Imperium wants to kill most species, like the Eldar and the Tau, simply because many species want to wipe humanity out. But recall that not all alien species are aggressive towards the Imperium, and the Imperium has resorted to genocide 'simply because they are xenos'.

Let's also look at the Imperium's other 'less than noble' activities: purging of worlds on an Inquisitor's orders, bombarding worlds simply because the enemy are there, etc. And let's not forget, in GW's words, no less: "it is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable".

No one would argue that morality is absolute, but equally no one would dispute that morality is relative in the 40k universe. Hence, the Imperium may believe it is doing the right thing when it slaughters innocents, and millions would argue that the regime is evil for the same action. Now, you may be forgiven for arguing that, in the case of the warp where immorality is reflected in physical corruption, morals are absolute and hence we cannot possibly argue against the actions of the Imperium. I wont deny that, in this instance, mankind is forced to take drastic actions against Chaos, Tyranids, etc, and is justified. But the Imperium often takes drastic actions - obliterating whole worlds to deal with something small or shelling entire planets to rein in rebellious forces - that are extreme. No one should then deny that the regime is cruel and bloody, and by our 21st century standards, it is evil.

However, I LOVE the setting for its grey areas, and so believe that using such terms deprive of us that.

I like Millandson's quote of the definition of facism. Let's apply it to the Imperium:-

Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong. The Imperium absolutely reflects these views.

Fascists identify violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality. Yup, check.

Fascists claim that culture is created by collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, and thus rejects individualism. Again, pretty much bang on the money.

In viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, fascists claim that pluralism is a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety . Fascism rejects and resists autonomy of cultural or ethnic groups who are not considered part of the fascists' nation and who refuse to assimilate or are unable to be assimilated. This one is interesting, because in many ways the Imperium is not portrayed as necessarily opposing pluralism, provided the pluralism serves the ultimate (broadly defined) aims of the Imperium. Indeed, there is in fact a marked tolerance of cultural and ethnic diversity more akin to the wide recruiting methods of the Ottoman Empire than the classic model of a Fascist state. Perhaps this is due to the Imperium's religious bias: successful religions are evangelical in nature, and actively encourage conversion amongst different races. Of course the bit about non-assimilation is true, but the Imperium is well versed in facilitating assimilation of human cultures (compliance) without utterly destroying them.

Fascists consider attempts to create such autonomy as an affront and threat to the nation. Yes, rebellion and attempts at autonomy tend to go down like a French kiss at a family reunion with the Imperium's sinister agents...

Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. This one is interesting. Arguably, the Imperium is at one level a one party state, but on another it is a complex and multi tiered conglomeration of power blocks. Arguably the political bias of the Imperium swings between two major power blocks, which could be termed "parties": the Administratum and the Ministorum. And arguably the Adeptus Mechanicus make up a third major power block or "party" within the wider Imperial body politic. So I'd say here that broadly speaking the Imperium doesn;t quite fall within this model.

Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement. Oh yes.

Like Millandson says, the Imperium of Man DOES hit the vast majority of those markers. But I do think it is marked more by the breaches than by the observances. Even if it IS a facist state, it is sufficiently different to most historical facist states to mkae it very unusual.

Arguably, it actually resembles a wartime democracy. I know it's NOT a democracy, but consider Churchill's wartime government during WWII: here we had an ostensibly democratic government that would routinely spy on its citizens, imprison dissenters and political opponents (like Moseley's facists) and ruthlessly prosecute a war by taking such steps as sinking the fleet of a theoretically allied nation (the French, costing 1,300 lives) and firebombing civilian population centres.

Now I'm no getting into a debate here about the rights or wrongs of those decisions, but the point I'm making is that in wartime even non-facist governments make incredibly difficult choices that would appear to render the government a quasi-facist state. Arguably, the Imperium has very little inherent political right-wing bias, it simply regards itself as being on a wartime footing. Which to some extent is true...

MILLANDSON said:

Hmm...I thought the Inquisition was very much like well...the Inquisition (Spanish that is)...

macd21 said:

My point being that the term fascism is a modern contrivance for what people have been doing for a very long time. The Imperium is heavily modelled after the Holy Roman Empire 17th century Spain. It isn't modelled after 20th century fascist states.

BrotherAtrox said:

Hunting down opponents/traitors (in 40k - Heretics/Xenos collaborators/etc) and killing them because they represent a threat to the state (Imperium) because they offer a different world view than that which is portrayed by the state, and are divergent in terms of ideology, aims, etc, compared to those of the state.

The Inquisition is very similar to the Gestapo. They are the secret police/death squads of the Imperium, just as the Gestapo were the secret police/death squads of Nazi Germany.

I think you see an example of how to tell a multi-layered story in the Warhammer 40K world in the same vein as Apocalypse Now, Band of Brothers, Blackhawk Down, you name it. When the Ultra-Marines movie comes out you will see an example of how to tell an exciting story. Anyone who claims to have 20+ experience in gaming and telling stories should not find limits in the mythos and they do they are merely self imposed. Infact if you even know anything about the Warhammer 40K universe you should know that this is a very EPIC world and a vast Universe for telling very epic stories with even a Greek or Roman spin on them. One should be able to take the subject matter and create their own rendition of Greek Mythology and the rise and even fall of Greek Heroes. Between the subject matter in 40K, war films, novels and yes even borrowing from Greek Mythology one should be able to tell rather EPIC stories that last longer than a few sessions. That in and off itself makes this a very viable RPG especially with how popular the franchise is!

CanadianPittbull said:

Ditto. Well said.

Now let's just hope FFG recognizes the mentioned examples as viable. Not that I have any doubts ... they have been more than competent so far ...

CanadianPittbull said:

I don't 'claim', I inform.

I still worry those examples you give tend towards extremely heavy combat models of story, or long periods of introspective brooding and pc-on-pc interactions (in the case of Band of Brothers). In Black Hawk Down, where is the non-combat interaction with npcs? Yes, there would be interaction with your own side, but other than that I don't see much in the way to provide a well rounded rpg session beyond a looong string of connected combat encounters.

Hey, listen, if that floats your boat, fair enough. I personally moved away from that type of adventure a long time ago however.

I do still say the game might be done well (by my standards - which extend beyond just 'how to get these guys into interesting combat scenarios'), I just think it requires a lot of thought to do so. More thought certainly than many other rpgs, where many and varied styles of play and different types of adventure leap out at a GM.