Oh... and "they shall know no fear" is a command... they aren't actually fearless.

Coming to this discussion slightly late as I am, I will say that I fully share the OP's and several others' concerns. To take such a martially-themed aspect of the WH40k universum and make it into a viable RPG (with emphasis on Role-Playing) is a daunting task.

Secondly, I will also agree with the sentiment expressed by several others - that FFG are surely aware of the peculiar woes and pitfalls of casting the Adeptus Astartes (why, oh why do I always get a feeling that it's a canon-enshrined typo and should spell "Astrates") in a RPG.

Finally, I'll say that Ryorus and Lanowar have had the soundest point of view on the DW RPG so far - to my eyes. Given the martial nature of the Marines and the fact that after n-th assignment the players may enter a certain routine, a drill of death-dealing, so to speak, it should be no wonder that the medicine of this game will work best when applied in small doses. An assumption that stands true only in the light of what we already suspect, but without intimate knowledge of the system. Perhaps the longevity of the game has been extended by mechanics ingrained in the core rules, mechanics that shall make it easy for us as players and GMs to keep reinventing the wheel.

To end this point, I would also bring your attention to the fact that the game's coming out as the third (last?) game of the series - therefore, there is smaller reliance on establishing a core audience, there is less need for offering a product that is going to last until the next game of the series comes out. In my view, it corroborates to some extent the thesis that the game's not supposed to be the workhorse of your gaming group, but rather a nice bonus, an added-value thing of sorts.

Or, it might be good for casual gaming, when it's really really hard to come together for a gaming session. Then it would be just the thing - exactly the same way as with luring in new players. The shiny-stuff appeal approach, in a way.

Personally, I shan't care much for the combat side, but will be greatly interested in the dynamics of the interaction between the SM themselves and between them and the other servants of the Emperor. Also, slightly following on this, trying to roleplay the different answers to the question of whether the SM is a super-human or supra-human. That is whether it's still in the main a human being, only superior in many (almost all?) respects, or whether its enhancements make it something beyond a human being, bearing a resemblance to us only in the form of its outer shell.

Still, I will have to seriously think about whether to buy it. It will depend on whether there will be interesting sourcebooks for DH/RT coming out and on a positive reception of the majority.

Von Todkopf said:

Alternatively it could well be suited for long-term campaign play. One of the most enjoyable campaigns I ever ran was a Mechwarrior game that we played for 6 years.

I can understand the skeptisism, but there is a definite market for military RPGs out there. In addition to mechwarrior there has been the very popular Twilight 2000 (no, not about vampires), heavy gear, a number of palladium products and a smattering of other games. Cthulutech can be run as a military campaign. WW released Dogs of War for the nWoD.

It may not appeal to all, but lots of gamers love the action-adventure that military campaigns can provide. Combine it with the epic-sauce of Astartes combat and you get some serious potential.

MILLANDSON said:

It'll be like the Paranoia RPG on steroids!

BTW (excuse my ignorance), are all Space Marines male ("don't friggin' ask (or you'll get an axe in the arse!), don't tell indeed!") That would be quality RPGing right there.

L

Yep, they're all male.

Such a sexist and non-PC organisation.

All Space Marines are male, and all are sterile/lose sexual drives as a result of the genetic modifications.

Kanluwen said:

Hm, could you tell me where you got that information? Making people to eunuchs is usually said to make them less aggressive.

And if it is that way Ragnar Blackmane definitely has no idea about that.

Mjoellnir said:

Older information that I can't exactly place. HBMC probably has it somewhere.

And if you go by novels, then every Space Marine is waiting to fall in love with an Eldar Farseer and backflip off Land Razorbacks.

Kanluwen said:

Aye, Space Marines are sterile, and if you look at the pictures of naked Space Marines in Bloodquest, they have no genitals either, that entire area is covered with black carapace.

Rant said:

I've heard it both ways. I don't read much in the way of 40K novels but I remember a part in one where several Marines are confronted by the Nightbringer and are confused by the fact that they feel something akin to fear. It was more of a "Oh, maybe this is what fear is like? Interesting."

MILLANDSON said:

They might be the toughest and most ornery gits in the entire galaxy, but you can't help feeling just a teeny bit sorry for them, can't you, with this information in mind? Maybe one idea for a mission with good role-playing potential is to try and find the genitals that they seem to have lost?

This sucks. What were FFG thinking - forcing us to play real tuff mofos but cojones-less? Game is broken, I demand a refund!

Given their screwed up genetics due to the impants and gene-therapy they are given, they would likely be entirely incompatible, genetically, with a willing woman anyway.

I mean, can you imagine the babies? *shudders at the image of a woman giving birth to a 3 foot tall SM baby*

This is getting old and fast. Why is it that every discussion about Space Marine physiology ends up like this? "Are they sterile?"" Are they all technically psychopaths?"" Do they still have..you know, things ?" "Sigh" Carry on.

I doubt it would change much. Most animals actually curtail foetal growth simply by the size of the uterus. After birth they then develop to their full size. And we already have humans the size of a space marine (although obviously they won't be as strong or tough) who we assume didn't require a C-section and a forklift to get out.

This is however one of the few places I've seen people accept a total genitalectomy for marines. Anytime I've suggested that space marines lose their equipment it's shouted down with cries of nerdrage (mainly because fans want to be space marines and emasculating a marine emasculates them by proxy).

Of course, Abnett then had to go and put giant space marine wingwong in the heresy series jsut to show that even their functionally useless equipment is TEH UBORZ.

I also like to think that as an initiation/spiritual ceremony the sororitas receive a hysterectomy. All humanity are their children and the importance of the flesh is secondary to safeguarding His people.

But I then I like my Imperium to be as brutal and bizarre as it's depicted, not this current pseudo happy meal image we've been getting. The Imperium is a ****** up place where a ***** is seen as so much useless flesh and a vulnerable spot so it's removed. Where the human body is treated as a machine and refined and sculpted to work to its full potential. In such circumstances the luxury of having working reproductive organs is completely unncessary.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Which ties in with the theme of sacrifice that is in so much of the early GW stuff, that to give humanity a few more years the Marine must sacrifice *everything* that made him human and become a soulless engine of war.

Its an honour and a curse to be a marine, its not a fun existence in anyway, shape or form.

TS Luikart said:

Its a bit more than that actually, the removal of the basic emotion of fear also means that as a consequence the person is a technically a complete whack-job. Because once you remove Fear you also take away-

Uncertainty

Shame

Embarassment

Remorse

It makes the person an effective soldier in so much as if they have to be knee deep in dead innocents they aren't going to give a **** about doing it if it means the job gets done and not going to have any kind of cares in the world after the fact... in fact, why they actually care could only be tied into Love, Happiness, Anger and Sadness as a form of motivation to exist and do what they do. The traditional forms of motivation for such soldiers in terms of punishment, fear and consequences that we're so often used to hyping up in 40K play no part in the conditioning and functioning of the soldiers. Tactically I can see someone being led by someone being Fearless also being very flawed in some instances, namely they do not second guess themselves or circumstances because the element of Uncertainty is removed from the equation being directly tied into fear.

The removal of that consequence will also cause some sort of paradox eventually which results in all manner of very interesting things when those things or people they love are in danger, hurt or killed and the person finds themselves without any sense of Remorse or Embarassment about it and I see the elements of Sadness and Anger becoming greatly amplified as a result. Just as the elements of Love and Happiness will also be emotionally amplified to compensate for that huge hole in their emotional psyche.

At least, that's how I see it having a Navis in RT that is Fearless (secondary mutation- From Beyond Trait) and warned other people, the Navis better actually like you because sure as hell, its really not going to give a **** if you die or get horribly maimed in the course of your duties and the component of Risk Assessment is also a non-factor!

In one of the earlier Horus Heresy books one of the characters is thinking about what it's like to be a Marine and how in the end all they have to look forward to is Death. There's nothing else they particularly can do but fight and die. So in terms of a viable RPG? You can make it work, if your determined enough you can make anything work but like I said in a previous post I can see it being used as a series of one-off's or interlinking into a Dark Heresy game as being the clean-up crew for there adventures.

MILLANDSON said:

Wow, this game is Siegmund Freud on crystal meth

Sorry, but I remain skeptical until I get a definitive source on that. When searching the web you get a lot of differing information on that (there was someone claiming that in the times of the old Rogue Trader the Ultramarines had concubines to produce new recruits and another one saying that at that time there were also half-Eldar librarians), someone wrote that the Salamanders are allowed to retire and found a family and I couldn't find any good pictures from Bloodquest, only this one: And isn't the black carapace supposed to be under the skin? Others claim that the Space Marines are still "complete" but chemically sterile.

Hellebore said:

How did I miss THAT bit?!?

Joking aside, all of this debate is suggesting to me that there actually will be some fine roleplaying opportunities here, as players explore the unique psychology of their marines. They are, after all, not really human any more, and navigating through the strange ways their minds work as a result of their gene-treatment could actually be an intriguing process. (Whether or not they have giant wingwongs/smooth black carapace. )

Etepete said:

Dunno about the game, but the discussion board certainly is.

Anyway, this lengthy discussion about what Space Marines keep under their power armour has dispelled all of the worries I have had about this game.

Oh, wait, no. Sorry. It has not.

Getting back to the actual subject of this thread "How can this be a viable RPG?"

At first I thought the same thing. How the heck could you really run a long term campaign using a group of bio-genetically enhanced men called Space Marines who know nothing other than going from one battle to the next? It would seem very straight forward on the surface, but then I had to really think about it. Many of you most likely play or have played the table top version of this game called Warhammer40k, and probably know very well the background story of the Warhammer40k Universe. After thinking on this, I think an absolutely invaluable source of background material would be the "Horus Heresy" line of Warhammer 40k novels put out by "Black Library" the novel writing section of Games Workshop that produces the entire Warhammer40k line of miniatures, and game expansions.

The "Horus Heresy" line consists of at least 8 or 9 novels that chronicles the origins of the Space Marines, the inner workings of how Space Marines conduct themselves, their strengths, weaknesses, and an abundance of intrigue, and subterfuge. Dan Abnett is the author of several of these novels, and is considered to be one of the best writers on the subject. His ability to describe the intricate details of the Warhammer40k Universe is unmatched in my opinion. In essence, this material would help any would be GM understand, formulate, and execute any number of storylines that would be useful in a game such as this. I plan to give it a go, and look forward to it.

Just my personal opinion here.. i guess the viability would depend on how good your GM is and how good your players are.....

I do remember in the Space Wolves biooks... Ragnar having to deal with feelings everything from Hatred, to love to fear.. and to even regret.. but remember the wolves are based on the Norse ideals..... which feelings are very important... and remember Ragnar has feelings for the Psycher he works for on earth.. but knows he cant do anything about it... but it still troubles him.....

thats just one of many examples so i would say that would depend on the chapter in question... . and thats how i would deal with the deathwatch since each member is taken from a different chapter and molded into one force.. each character would have a different view on how to deal with the rest... due to the chapter he is originaly from... you cant re-invent the wheel... same goes for the Emasculation thing.. each chapter would have a different view on weather to snip or not to snip....

and yes the books most defi8nitly DO contradict with the Minatures game.. and thats the only way your going to have good stories.. and personaly id run an Astares game... based more off the books then the Minatures game.... but if the rules sux.. well its gona be hard for anyone to make a good long term campaign... maby one chapter belives that feelings and being more human is the right way to go.. yes we may be geneticaly altered but we still have to remember why we are doing this.. and to do this we still need to remember where we came from... and why we fight.. and other chapters might belive that cutting that part out is the way to go... but that would depend on the player in question.. and would make for some great player/player interaction and even player/npc interaction..... and even in the books they state that not all the Capters are good at everything.. some chapters pride themselves on stealth.. others on brute force... that;s the big deal with Deathwatch they take from everywhere....

the campaign idea i have is your part of a i guess a Dirty Tricks style squad who is constantly sent ither behind enemy lines.. or sent into area where your basicly on your own.. you dont have backup.. your arse is always on the line... or strung out on the edge of the line.. and you have to survive with your wits and personalitiys and yes even your fighting abilities... which i personaly belive you can do with the Astaries.... but ill have to wait and see .... untill i see that book.. unfortunatly ill probably never get to run it since of my friends im like one of the only 40K fans.. so itll be a hard sell...

CARTMAG said:

I have a somewhat similar picture of the DW teams. Small autonymous teams specialized in unconventional warfare ( assassination, recon, sabotage etc. ). The very nature of their missions calls for individuals capable of thinking outside the box. There is a reason why young or "raw" marines are not sent to DW service. You need experience not only in combat but leadership and team work as well to make the cut. You might be the best marksman in your Company but that alone does not qualify you for the prestigious assignment.