First off let me point out that this is not the only game out there where the players assume the over powered roles of near gods, or in this case gen enhanced post humans. Both Exalted and Scion from WW have had similar heroes in the lead and they are good games (well Exalted is, haven't played Scion). It can be used to remove the powergamer factor because your character is already ub0r, what it leaves then is a challenge, both for the GM and for the player. How do you tell a compelling story about a hypno-indotrinated, brainwashed religious zealot and his just as brainwashed friends? Dan Abnett and a few others have managed this in novel form, but as a rpg it is going to be different, I'm looking forward to the challenged and to see how FFG will handle this.

Since you mention WW games, anyone would make for "ultrapowerful character" be it a werewolf, a mage or a vampire.

The two possible options are:

1) Mindless killing war machines (like plain D&D games have been played for years, as several have pointed out)

2) Glorious, full of personality heroes that can duel for days because one felt his honor betrayed (like in the oldest fluff from GW)

I personally hope for 30% of 1) and 70% of 2).

Gnah, why does everybody think that Space Marines are completely dehumanised killing machines? Sure, they can crack a coconut like an eggshell, eat poison, don't crap into their power armour when a carnifex tries to eat them or cower like an embryo when seeing into the warp. But in the core they are still human. They still have dreams and desires. How they deal with them depends on the chapter.

And thank the Emperor we can design our own. I for example made a chapter that is based on a deathworld where the human population is so small that the Marines must have families because otherwise always taking the best and brightest away would diminish the gene pool within a few centuries to a level where you can't recruit anybody anymore.

Additionally Deathwatch becomes better the more diverse your chapters are. Because on the one hand you are brothers and depend on each other. On the other hand the righteous fury of the Blood Angel seems sometimes a bit more furious than righteous, the Space Wolf looks a bit mutated, the Black Dragon is a freaking mutant, the Dark Angel is a self-righteous bastard, the Ultramarine a bookworm that knows the Codex Astartes by heart etc.

Mjoellnir said:

Perhaps because established fluff has detailed them this way? No doubt they still retain human traits, but the very nature of the adeptus astartes stifles this. It is the greatest irony of the space marines: to protect mankind they must transcend it and leave it far behind. It's the ultimate heroic sacrifice. Making marines 'too human' to me waters this concept down, and then I may as well just pretend I'm a starcraft terran marine instead and knock back some beers while pwning zerglings.

To me, real marine depths arises when a space marine is called into some fundamentally human situations that his training just cannot resolve, and he is forced to question the strictures of his upbringing. Does he dive in front of that little girl to take the (harmless to him) stray bullet because of his oath to serve humanity? Does he watch her blood splatter over his armour as he usaes the extra second to line up a shot on her attacker, his primary concern, or tramples her down to reach the greater daemon and slay it first? Will he even care? Does he think he should care? What if that farseer he was forced to work with believes she, if left alive, will form a powerful Imperial military advisor who in turn leads a massive crusade? What if he distrusts the xenos witch and personally kills the innocent child because of it? Questions upon questions, when a marine is forced to think outside his box (or not).

Take a gander at Watchmen's Doctor Manhattan. Elevated to the status of a God through sheer luck (and science!), and used thereon as a living weapon. He's a picture-perfect hero, yet when it comes back to his original kin, the human race, things just don't *click" anymore.

That's what playing a space marine should be like IMHO.

That is so right Space monkey

I'd say the RP component will be far more 'in field' than other games. That is, there will be little research/interaction around the dinner table and more uncovering things as they unfold.

This is mainly due to the manner in which Deathwatch are deployed. They will be investigating the threat on location rather than before hand. If things aren't quite right they'll need to figure out what's going on during their mission.You don't want to have too much squabbling amongst squad members as it's a pretty poor reflection on the discipline and training of the astartes if they can't get along to perform the mission. They would leave the chapter rivalries mostly to the fighting cages between missions.

I think also that there would a lot of strategic roleplay required. The Deathwatch might be requisitioned for a dozen different theatres but they need to make the call on where to go and why. What is best for the mission.

I'd say rather the currency they'd use renown to 'requisition' better or different equipment. ie they aquit themselves well in battle and are gifted with the bolter of Atholicis for their service.

So basically I think that the RP available to the DW will be different, more focused, but still there. It will have a higher reliance of combat because that's the sole purpose of a space marine and the RP will be derrived from that purpose, but it should still be there.

The question is whether people will enjoy that kind of RP.

Hellebore

The Hobo Hunter said:

No, it doesn't. The fluff varies from book to book and especially from chapter to chapter, but rarely are they 'dehumanised killing machines'. They feel the same range of emotions as any human, with the possible exception of fear.

Visitor Q said:

This how good role playing can start. These are some ideas Gms will come up with more.

They are described that way in the encyclopaedia esque manner of the 40k rulebooks and such. However the novels depict far more human marines. However the novels aren't a good benchmark, that's like assuming all police officers are like John Maclane.

Hellebore

macd21 said:

Fear is one of the most basic of human emotions. No fear = not human anymore.

That said, they are far more interesting than the one-note killing machines some folks suggest that they must be.

Visitor Q said:

Visitor Q said:

This is an excellent post, and has inspired me.

MILLANDSON said:

I keep seeing this number thrown around. Space Marines aren't that tall. Think Shaq.

It is disappointing to see so many people writing this off based on stereotypes.

And as you can see by the picture (drawn by Jes Spacemarine Goodwin) the marine is only 7' tall (as the scale bar starts at 1' rather than 0').

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Yeah, seven feet tall, and three feet across at the shoulders, with thighs bigger than a normal human's chest.

It boggles the mind to think that people honestly believe FFG haven't already asked themselves all these questions.

It's also amazing just how many people think that Marines are just emotionless 'fire-and-forget' living weapons. They're not robots - they're super humans. They have friendships and rivalries between their fellow brothers, intense loyalty - the Space Wolves alone show a serious sense of humour, fair play, healthy competition, compassion and bravery. They're not all mind-scrubbed automatons and I think it's a shame to both forget the fluff for 40K so readily and assume that FFG have just made a " Space Marines - HURR! " action RPG.

BYE

Darkwind1278 said:

Yes!

The Hobo Hunter said:

Hellebore said:

Yeah, that's the problem. In Warhammer 40k we have three layers of fictional reality (I exclude the RPG's, card games etc. for the moment). We have what they put on the official website and in the rulebooks (like a daily schedule with 5 minutes of free time to ponder the greatness of the Emepror), we have how they actually play in battle and we have the books. I would see the first as complete hyperbole and propaganda. If we accept everything as true then every Dark Eldar who survives to the age of ten without having his skin removed at least three times is a bigger miracle than the resurrection of the Emperor would be, Space Marines could EAT bombs and would still need an Apothecary to kill them afterwards etc.

On the table those armies suddenly aren't that awesome anymore. Eldar should have died out 5000 years ago (really, they are an incredibly advanced but dying race and send their civilians with worse equipment than the Imperial Army into the field???), you need a lot more than 10 marines to fight your way across a board that is completely covered with Tyranids etc.

In the books they are again awesome. At least the people the book follows, the others are cannon fodder. On the other hand they are a lot more human. They have rivalries, fears, they want vengeance etc. They are not killing automatons.

The Hobo Hunter said:

See, and that is human. Nothing you just mentioned is related to genetic enhancements or brainwashing. An Inquisitor in power armour has the same choices. Warhammer 40k is a world where people are willing to destroy a planet just to get a Xenos cult in one town before it spreads. If somebody cares to save a child that has seen anything chaos- or xenos-related and could have on some level been influenced by that doesn't depend on being a Marine or not. It depends on what kind of human you play. The conflict about that is as likely to break out between a Salamander and a Dark Angel as between a soldier and a missionary.

I was talking to someone about this and asked them this very question and i liked their answer. I wouldn't run a fully fledged campaign (they said) but what i would do is maybe have some dark heresy campaign and near the end the acolytes (and maybe their inquisitor) get captured or something on a large scale (by this i mean that like instead of being by 1-2 dark eldar or something, ur in the heart of a dark eldar maximum security fortress or something) and then the players roll Deathwatch characters next game, spend a couple of sessions busting them out and tearing up the place and then the characters return to their DH characters.

EDIT: post deleted

The Inquisition investigate things, Rogue Traders Explore things, Deathwatch Kills Things

How I'd use Deathwatch is as a Coda to certain games of Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader. Say in Dark Heresy they were investigating some secret underground tunnels to find out why so many guardsmen have vanished. After coming across some monsters tainted by chaos they destroy the nest but stumble across a Titan buried under the rock and a squad of Word Bearers Marines trying to corrupt it thus answering the question of how they are becoming corrupted. Instead of trying to stop them they retreated to the surface and called in Deathwatch who now have to come into the cavern and cleanse the caves of the Bearers and secure the Titan for the Imperium.

Or something like the a Dark Heresy game which ends with the party being surrounded by Kroot Mercs working for the bad guy and it cuts to the Deathwatch debriefing about attacking their Warsphere and extracting the Acolytes.

As a full fledged campaign I can't see it working they might have different characteristics but they are bred to kill. Then your just playing Space Hulk or a Warhammer 40K game but with less miniatures.

Santiago said:

I am wondering the exact same thing, but I am confident they will come up with a viable RPG setting. Missions will not be just combat, but also exploration, investigation before the guns start blazing.

The Laughing God said:

I think I might actually rather run a campaign where the players are marine scouts rather than fully-fledged marines; and the misssions revolve around reconnaissance and infiltration of a numerically superior force in advance of some major battle; as opposed to shooting lots of things up. Maybe do a bit of sabotage as well. That could actually be quite tense and require players to think on their feet.

Ask yourself this question... if tomorrow GW came to you and said "we want you to make a Space Marine RPG. GO!" Would you NOT do it on the grounds that you think this is impossible or would you IMMEDIATELY start thinking of ways to solve the problem?

Now do you think the guys at FFG didn't do this?