14 hours ago, Norell said:

You know it's all like the colonization. Clearly even the Unknown Regions are inhabited (by Chiss for instance), but nobody there is strong enough to be of any galactic relevance otherwise they would be known. It's like the Incas. Sure they had some shiny metals, but they couldn't control the whole South America because the lack of other resources. Therefor they were not globally relevant.

What I want to say is that certainly the Unknown Regions lack proper resources to build such a world-conquering force, both in raw materials and especially in workforce. If you think about it, even KDY took centuries to build up enough to be able to produce ISDs. Or that building the Death Star made several sectors go bankrupt. Sure the FO could hide a Starkiller base or that ridiculous mothership of Snoke's, they just couldn't have the resources, raw materials, workforce or infrastructure to build any of those. If they would have any of those, they couldn't have been perfectly hidden form the whole galaxy. The existence of the Death Star also leaked and it was the closest secret of a galaxy-wide absolutist empire with a military that worked as police as well. If they couldn't stop information to leak out about the death Star, how could a semi-underground - dare I say ragtag - organization both have the resources to build a superweapon even bigger and stronger, plus a star destroyer five times as big (or so) as the Executor and keep it totally hidden from EVERYONE in the galaxy?

The Unknown Regions doesn't mean a hermetically sealed area of space, it's like renaissance-age China. Europeans knew about its existence and that stuff happen there but didn't know anything exact about it. But that doesn't mean there wasn't for example trade between China and Europe.

The very basic concept of the FO doesn't make sense in the first place.

Going by what we know from lore I'd argue that the Unknown regions isn't analogous to renaissance China. In history, Europe and China were pretty well connected by major trade routes like the Silk Road, which has existed for centuries, even though there was limited direct contact between the peoples of these 2 regions. By comparison there were no known hyperspace lanes connecting the Unknown Regions to the rest of the galaxy. Small scale trade does exist between territories of Wild Space and neighboring fringes of the Unknown Regions but venturing deeper is extremely hazardous without established hyperspace lanes.

To me the Unknown Regions is more akin to the New World prior to the Age of Exploration. The native Aztecs and Incas are like the indigenous alien civilizations like the Chiss and the European colonizers are the Imperial Remnant/ First Order, but unlike the Europeans of history, the Empire was the only faction that figured out how to navigate the Unknown Regions safely and took all of that knowledge with them when they fled the known galaxy, ensuring that the New Republic could not follow them even if they wanted to, so it is not unreasonable to think that the activities of First Order was able to go unnoticed for a long time. There are many ways to hide in a region of space filled with ,"solar storms, rogue magnetospheres, black holes , gravity wells , and things far stranger*". On top of that the First Order was largely a mobile force, moving from system to system to avoid detection, much like the Rebellion during the Galactic Civil War.

As for resources we do not know for sure how many planets are in the Unknown Regions or how resource rich they are but we can infer that there must be enough if the First Order was able to successfully built up their war machine. There is no other contradictory information that exists which states otherwise. If there are I'm not aware of it.

Also it has been said by others that the First Order wasn't building from scratch. Palpatine built a whole contingency plan to ensure the survival and eventual resurgence of his Empire. That plan involved relocating a lot their ships and tech to the Unknown Regions, which they just needed to build upon and improve. Some of the military infrastructure was likely transferred as well and it's not something that cannot be rebuild, given enough time and space.

* http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unknown_Regions

4 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Imperial Navy

From the canon page:

Hmmm, now I'm wondering where they got that from. Because with a crew complement of 37,000 the Imperial Navy has 925,000,000 crew dedicated to just it's star destroyers, that's not including the assigned stormtroopers to each, nor the crews of it's other ships and bases.

If 25,000 is correct, I'd like to know the rebel fleet numbers.

I'm wondering if there was a typo somewhere, and they meant 2500 (or even 250...) Still huge, but far more reasonable (compared to 25k anyhow.)

er what..... 250 a large number of ships...

how many systems (not even planets) are there? the Royal Navy had approx 50 Ironclad battleships in the 1880's.... so 2500 would still be a pitiful amount for a galaxy wide empire that rules by fear...

23 hours ago, Wraithdt said:

There are answers to your questions if you care enough to look for them. Here are some of them for your convenience:-

1) It's a big galaxy

2) Starkiller Base and the First Order is based in the Unknown Regions, a part of the galaxy that is largely unexplored due to absence of existing hyperspace lanes and the presence of gravitational anomalies that make space travel difficult and dangerous. Therefore they were able to remain hidden from the New Republic and the larger galaxy for a long time.

3) The New Republic did not pursue or investigate the Unknown Regions because of the aforementioned dangers and for the most part did not consider the First Order a threat. This false sense of security was fueled by misinformation spread by FO agents in New Republic space and FO sympathizers within the senate.

4) The FO is partially funded by sympathetic politicians in the New Republic. Their other source of revenue are by strip-mining and extracting resources from planets in the Unknown Regions and Wild Space. They do not have to maintain any civilian infrastructure and population, so any resource they gain goes straight into their military. The other source of revenue for the FO could be Snoke himself but detailed information on that remains sketchy.

5) The FO is able to achieve all this largely because of the efforts of the Empire. The old Empire devoted resources to the exploration and mapping of the Unknown Regions due to Palpatine's particular interest in that area of space. Thrawn was instrumental in the success of his pet project and as a result the Imperial Remnant that escaped after the Battle of Jakku had all the information they needed to safely navigate the Unknown Regions. They also would've known which planet had the resources they need to rebuild their war machine. One of that planet became Starkiller base as it was rich with Kyber Crystals, a prime ingredient for the super weapon.

6) All that being said if the Empire could hide 2 Death Stars in known Imperial space for decades, it is no stretch at all to believe that the First Order and Starkiller Base was able to remain hidden in the Unknown Regions for a long time and from New Republic scrutiny (or lack thereof) until it was too late.

Huh, alright then. I need to up my nerd-game when it comes to Star Wars.

*takes off oversized glasses and pocket protector*

More info from the Last Jedi Incredible Cross Sections:

Raddus -

MC85 Star Cruiser

built by the Mon Cal and CEC

3,438m

Ninka -

Free Virgillia Class Bunkerbuster Corvette

CEC

316m

Anodyne

Modified Nebulon-C Frigate

Kuat

549m

Vigil

Vakbear Class Cargo frigate

Kuat

496m

there are some really nice pictures as well.

6 minutes ago, GrandAdmiralCrunch said:

More info from the Last Jedi Incredible Cross Sections:

Raddus -

MC85 Star Cruiser

built by the Mon Cal and CEC

3,438m

Ninka -

Free Virgillia Class Bunkerbuster Corvette

CEC

316m

Anodyne

Modified Nebulon-C Frigate

Kuat

549m

Vigil

Vakbear Class Cargo frigate

Kuat

496m

there are some really nice pictures as well.

Thank you for this!

6 minutes ago, GrandAdmiralCrunch said:

More info from the Last Jedi Incredible Cross Sections:

Raddus -

MC85 Star Cruiser

built by the Mon Cal and CEC

3,438m

Ninka -

Free Virgillia Class Bunkerbuster Corvette

CEC

316m

Anodyne

Modified Nebulon-C Frigate

Kuat

549m

Vigil

Vakbear Class Cargo frigate

Kuat

496m

there are some really nice pictures as well.

So this basically shuts down anyone who complains of the measures not being specific for everything

And thank you for those!

28 minutes ago, Visovics said:

So this basically shuts down anyone who complains of the measures not being specific for everything

And thank you for those!

Which reminds me: weren't the measurements given for the Mandator down to the foot when they announced it?

37 minutes ago, GrandAdmiralCrunch said:

More info from the Last Jedi Incredible Cross Sections:

Anything about the first order ships in there?

Mostly the supremacy and dreadnought

10 minutes ago, Captain_Nemo said:

Anything about the first order ships in there?

Mostly the supremacy and dreadnought

Fulminatrix

Mandator IV Class Siege Dreadnought

Kuat-Entralla

7,669m

Supremacy

Mega Class Star Dreadnought

Kuat-Entralla

13,239m

Some pics:

At 30m,I think we can safely say that the resistance bombers fall into the heavy squadron category and not flotillas.

1 hour ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Which reminds me: weren't the measurements given for the Mandator down to the foot when they announced it?

AND in meters, given to the exact cm, so 7669 .92 m, or 25162.8 feet

So yeah, pretty exact measurements

On 12/7/2017 at 1:48 PM, thecactusman17 said:

I really like those Rebel ships. They will definitely fit right in next to any existing Rebel fleet from the flotillas all the way up to the Raddus . If FFG is really insistent on scaling, the Raddus would be a great Rebel counterpart to an SSD.

I'm not a big fan of the Mandator-class, but that's more just because the uninspiring visual design. Honestly, just putting the cannons on top would have been a far better and more dynamic decision. That said, it's not so awful that I couldn't enjoy it with the right model and rules.

The Finalizer is great. Lots of dynamic design elements, and it simultaneously hearkens back to that first ISD while looking very different by comparison (and not just the size). The Finalizer would be an awesome addition to Armada with a sliding scale.

Until I see an original ISD and the Finalizer or Mandator side-by-side with a clear size difference, there's no good reason to not just employ the sliding scale to the freaking max with both of these ships. These aren't Super Star Destroyers, no harm is done by putting both on the tabletop.

ISD 1.6 KM

RADDUS 3 KM

FINALIZER 3 KM

MANDATOR 8KM

EXECUTOR 19 KM

SUPREMACY 60 KM (WIDE)

Approximately...

33 minutes ago, bleachorange said:

ISD 1.6 KM

RADDUS 3 KM

FINALIZER 3 KM

MANDATOR 8KM

EXECUTOR 16 KM

SUPREMACY 64 KM (WIDE)

I'll see TLJ tonight, maybe my opinion will change. But the only other thing we've seen so far as scale is concerned prior to the new film is a TIE Fighter skimming the surface of the Finalizer . And that scale indicates that the Finalizer is a perfectly fine ship to represent on the sliding scale. Now, it could be that tonight the Finalizer will appear next to an old ISD and the Mandator in profile and utterly wreck my theory, but comparing the Finalizer and the Raddus should have to fairly evenly sized ships. So as long as you make them noticeably larger than the older models, which can be done relatively easily, you'll have at least two larger ships that can easily scale into Armada.

One of the greatest establishing shots in film is the opening moments of A New Hope with Devastator chasing after the tiny Tantive 4 . But an equally important and impressive shot is the Executor hovering in space surrounded by a full armada of Star Destroyers in The Empire Strikes Back . It left no question in the mind of viewers that the Executor was a truly gigantic and intimidating warship on a different level from the normal Star Destroyers we had seen up to that point. We haven't had a really impressive establishing shot prior to The Last Jedi for the new large ships to convey the actual scale, especially in relation to the old ships.

21 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

I'll see TLJ tonight, maybe my opinion will change. But the only other thing we've seen so far as scale is concerned prior to the new film is a TIE Fighter skimming the surface of the Finalizer . And that scale indicates that the Finalizer is a perfectly fine ship to represent on the sliding scale. Now, it could be that tonight the Finalizer will appear next to an old ISD and the Mandator in profile and utterly wreck my theory, but comparing the Finalizer and the Raddus should have to fairly evenly sized ships. So as long as you make them noticeably larger than the older models, which can be done relatively easily, you'll have at least two larger ships that can easily scale into Armada.

One of the greatest establishing shots in film is the opening moments of A New Hope with Devastator chasing after the tiny Tantive 4 . But an equally important and impressive shot is the Executor hovering in space surrounded by a full armada of Star Destroyers in The Empire Strikes Back . It left no question in the mind of viewers that the Executor was a truly gigantic and intimidating warship on a different level from the normal Star Destroyers we had seen up to that point. We haven't had a really impressive establishing shot prior to The Last Jedi for the new large ships to convey the actual scale, especially in relation to the old ships.

Unlike TFA, the last jedi has some real fleet beauty shots. You will get a sense of scale.

"Ninka - Free Virgillia Class Bunkerbuster Corvette built by CEC, length: 316m"

Interesting the cross section is calling it a corvette but the visual dictionary refers to it as a 'small cruiser'. The armament certainly matches the CR-90, (two heavy turrets, four lighter turrets) maybe this ship is suppose to be TLJ version of the CR-90.

On 11/12/2017 at 3:17 PM, Gadgetron said:

Hmmm, now I'm wondering where they got that from.

There were roughly 24 Star Destroyers to a Sector Fleet, and (at least during the Old Republic) just over 1000 Sectors. Hence on the order of 25,000 Star Destroyers.

Having now seen TLJ, I'd be down for the Raddus. Dunno how they'd do it, but I'd be down. I hate the aesthetic of 98% of the new trilogy, but the Raddus is a good design I'd like to see more of.

6 hours ago, outerrimrebel said:

"Ninka - Free Virgillia Class Bunkerbuster Corvette built by CEC, length: 316m"

Interesting the cross section is calling it a corvette but the visual dictionary refers to it as a 'small cruiser'. The armament certainly matches the CR-90, (two heavy turrets, four lighter turrets) maybe this ship is suppose to be TLJ version of the CR-90.

could be the base ship design was an oversized corvette, and the Resistance added those forward weapons outriggers and the armor shields on either side of the cockpit area, which edged it into Light cruiser territory.

and per the wookieepedia entry it has twin heavy Turbo Laser turrets, 4 point defense turrets, 3 Heavy Plasma bombs, and 8 Heavy Ordnance Pods.. the visual dictionary pages that leaked indicate the heavy plasma bombs are the massive cylinders amidships on either side (actually looks like it could carry 4 of them), and they are meant for Orbital bombardment. presumably the Ordnance pods would be some other sort of massive bombs or missiles. the visual dictionary page also says the outriggers have "docking conduits" to let it carry some fighters/bombers. so it is a munitions heavy warship with high firepower for the size, and the ability to carry some fighters externally.

honestly, given its size compared to the 3km long Raddus, i'd suspect that the ship is comparable in size to a Pelta, and looking at wookieepedia's entries.. the Ninka is 316m, a pelta is 282.. so i'm fairly close. that bow looks like it is off a Pelta.. could be the Resistance actually had to rebuild the Ninka using parts from a Pelta or something.

16 hours ago, GrandAdmiralCrunch said:

Fulminatrix

Mandator IV Class Siege Dreadnought

Kuat-Entralla

7,669m

Supremacy

Mega Class Star Dreadnought

Kuat-Entralla

13,239m

Thanks

13 hours ago, outerrimrebel said:

"Ninka - Free Virgillia Class Bunkerbuster Corvette built by CEC, length: 316m"

Interesting the cross section is calling it a corvette but the visual dictionary refers to it as a 'small cruiser'. The armament certainly matches the CR-90, (two heavy turrets, four lighter turrets) maybe this ship is suppose to be TLJ version of the CR-90.

I think Cruiser is a fluid term in the Star Wars universe, and not necessarily it’s weight class.

The Consular Class was called a cruiser, and it’s only 115 meters.

I would say Corvette is actually it’s weight group.

20 hours ago, bleachorange said:

Unlike TFA, the last jedi has some real fleet beauty shots. You will get a sense of scale.

I've gotten the sense of scale, and I agree great shots of the Fleets.

I'm now 110% certain that every ship can be easily represented with sliding scale at every size range. Even the Mandator dreadnaught.

7 hours ago, mithril2098 said:

could be the base ship design was an oversized corvette, and the Resistance added those forward weapons outriggers and the armor shields on either side of the cockpit area, which edged it into Light cruiser territory.

and per the wookieepedia entry it has twin heavy Turbo Laser turrets, 4 point defense turrets, 3 Heavy Plasma bombs, and 8 Heavy Ordnance Pods.. the visual dictionary pages that leaked indicate the heavy plasma bombs are the massive cylinders amidships on either side (actually looks like it could carry 4 of them), and they are meant for Orbital bombardment. presumably the Ordnance pods would be some other sort of massive bombs or missiles. the visual dictionary page also says the outriggers have "docking conduits" to let it carry some fighters/bombers. so it is a munitions heavy warship with high firepower for the size, and the ability to carry some fighters externally.

honestly, given its size compared to the 3km long Raddus, i'd suspect that the ship is comparable in size to a Pelta, and looking at wookieepedia's entries.. the Ninka is 316m, a pelta is 282.. so i'm fairly close. that bow looks like it is off a Pelta.. could be the Resistance actually had to rebuild the Ninka using parts from a Pelta or something.

The CR-90 and the Pelta are both built by Corellian Engineering Corp and so is the Ninka, hence the design elements that are shared. Additionally given the appearance of the same class in Battlefront II TLJ dlc, the ship comes stock that way and was not a one off modification. Just an observation, the outrigger turrets are too large to point defense and most likely are single turbolaser turrets like the CR-90. I agree that the ordnance pods are concussion missile launchers or proton torpedo launchers designed for heavy bombardment of ships or stations.

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

I've gotten the sense of scale, and I agree great shots of the Fleets.

I'm now 110% certain that every ship can be easily represented with sliding scale at every size range. Even the Mandator dreadnaught.

I like that idea very (very!) much... ?