2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

@Mikael Hasselstein I wouldn't know. I quit using BTA before the wave hit the real table. Tested it on Vassal for a bit, but find it limited and a bit dull.

Oh, erm, right. You don't actually have Boarding Troopers on your list, using its slots for Flight Controllers and Boosted Comms instead, which makes perfect sense for Sloane. So much for me actually paying attention.

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

SloVENGER on the other hand can be very fun indeed. It's a fleet that rewards good squad play, but it's not forgiving if you make mistakes.

SloVENGER it is! (though I would still suggest addign "and the minnows," or something more pithy, because the activation padding strikes me as a rather important aspect of this list).

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

How are you defining your "tiers"?

I know I'd define it as placing or at least capable of placing top 4, but others might have a more expansive definition.

In my opinion, the biggest concept present in this thread is building a list around some kind of points denial. Looking over Green Knight's list, the one thing that sprung to mind was Aresius' Dodonna Liberty list. One really big ship that has a lot of pop and can hold up well, squads to clearly win the squad game, but which can help out somewhat against the ships, some potential to get a 10 if it is there, but otherwise, a very clear path to getting an 8.

2 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

Someone say 2x DC VSD2s?

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 398/400

Commander: Admiral Konstantine

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 104 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Admiral Konstantine ( 23 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 127 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

4 VT-49 Decimators ( 88 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 Valen Rudor ( 13 points)

Not really tier 1 honestly.

Valen and Decimators bog down squads and Dengar makes shooting them have counter 2 with 8 health and a good punch. I mostly play it defensively. I got 4th in a SC and I could have gotten second if not for a stupid mistake in one game. I was also playing pretty casual at the time too. XD I haven't played against too many large ship based lists though. Konstantine can be swapped for Motti if you want.

I remember seeing you play this list at that SC...glad I didn't have to face it

@Ardaedhel, loosely:

T1 - large tournament winning caliber, something you NEED to prepare for, a meta boogeyman, a list so strong it could even influence the midi cholirians to stop itself from dying, a list so strong it has relative 55% winning chance against T2/T3. Top4 (Nationals, Regionals, Worlds). - In this thread, I'm asking for suspected and potential, since we don't have that many data points yet.
ex. Rieekan Aceholes, pre-nerf postnerf, GH. Ackbar MC80. Wave 2 Clonisher MSU

T2 - largely random good lists, something you do not NEED to prepare for. Generally assumed not as good in most matchups to T1.

T3 - Random stuff and jank.

SloVENGER and the minnows. na na na na na

Having taken a Sloane list to the top of a Vassal tournament, I'm going to provide some of my own thoughts to parallel both @Green Knight and @Ardaedhel, especially since my list relies on different tricks than theirs. Firstly, my list (with a couple subtle tweaks not worth discussing, simply optimization):

Name: Autumn Tournament Fleet (Almost)
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Admiral Sloane

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Solar Corona

Imperial II (120)
• Admiral Sloane (24)
• Skilled First Officer (1)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Leading Shots (4)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Relentless (3)
= 172 Points

Quasar Fire I (54)
• Flight Controllers (6)
• Expanded Hangar Bay (5)
• Boosted Comms (4)
• Pursuant (2)
= 71 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Hondo Ohnaka (2)
• Comms Net (2)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Black Squadron (9)
• Colonel Jendon (20)
• Dengar (20)
• Maarek Stele (21)
• Saber Squadron (12)
• 3 x TIE Defender Squadron (48)
= 130 Points

Total Points: 400

Now that we have that with us, I'm going to walk through a couple other points.

1. Damage: @Blail Blerg damage effectiveness is one of the two major reasons I prefer TIE Defenders to an ace-based squad ball for Sloane. No matter what I roll, even when I crit-fish for accuracy results, I will get something negative to you from my roll. With slightly above average rolls, the squadron ball here can destroy a CR90 or a Raider a turn. With somewhat more above average rolls that can be accomplished in one activation. When you add in the ability for that striking power to be directed against heavier targets like MC80s to strip brace tokens or the like, the deadly power of Relentless is massively boosted, far more than the one damage you might get otherwise. On paper it is less deadly than Ackbar Assault Frigates, but on paper has trouble accounting for just how necessary that brace is and how worthless ECM is once it's gone.

2. This is personal opinion, but I can't imagine a Sloane list that actually wants to have Boarding Troopers. Not only is it grossly overkill in most cases, it also comes with enormous opportunity cost. Sloane lists tend to be short on direct ship-to-ship firepower, so anything that detracts from that further, such as removing Gunnery Teams from your I-2, is a non-starter in my book. By all means bring Avenger, but BTA is a waste in a Sloane list. Mine even ditches Avenger in favor of Relentless in order to give me more command flexibility. My theory is that one way or another you'll still lose those exhausted tokens, whether by living long enough to force me to shoot again, or just dying anyway. It's also useful for when I need to pick up the slack from the Quasar right now.

3. I will loudly echo that GH/Yavaris lists are a Sloane's natural enemy. I came in hot guns blazing in the Autumn tournament final against @Roquax and got obliterated. I made some suboptimal calls certainly, but after smashing my metaphorical fist into that brick wall more than once, I can say with reasonable certainty that Sloane is not the answer to Rieekan ace squadrons. If, and this is a gigantic if, you can get your squadrons on target to strip GH's brace or slice open Yavaris (again, with some luck something my squadron ball can do in a turn), you might be able to leverage her ability to victory that way, but she does not boost anti-squad power enough to truly challenge that archetype at its own game.

4. Definitely some more opinion here. I don't feel that Sloane "needs" activation padding, but rather that Sloane uses it better than most to effect tempo control. In my opinion, Sloane is a unique admiral in that she actively seeks to upend your opponent's plans and substitute her own. At least for my list, and I've discussed this with some folks at some length, I don't win because my list is directly stronger than yours, but because it hits you in such a way that your plans are disrupted, and I win in the confusion before you are able to rebuild your plan. Activation padding can help make sure that goes off correctly, but for me it's less direct tempo control like an Admonition list prefers than changing the terms rapidly, and winning even more rapidly on the back of that attack.

Sloane latches on to weaknesses in lists and rips them open, and in the case of my or GK's list, pours an ISD's worth of hate into the hole. This is why Aceholes works so friggin' well against her, because there is no direct weakness that that player can't play around (holding Yavaris out of easy striking range until you commit, etc.) for her to exploit. I'd call it shock and awe, but shock and awe doesn't just continue to work the way she does. It's more a stunning effect that allows you freedom to maneuver in the meantime.

5. In addition to Aceholes, the other natural counter (more to mine than GK's but to both to a certain degree IMO) has already won at least two Regionals, and it's @Truthiness's Madine thing that @JJs Juggernaut also won with a variant of. It's the same principle as @mhd's victory over me with his Raider spam, you overwhelm the Sloane player with too many targets to prosecute simultaneously and use superior agility to prevent easy chaining on bomber attacks turn to turn. While many Sloane fighter balls can kill a CR90 per turn, and poor maneuvering on the part of another can give the ISD a kill, that doesn't do a lot to stop the other four boring in from four more vectors.

Hopefully all of that was useful to you.

Very cool @GiledPallaeon. Somewhat. I feel more comfy seeing defenders than AA squadrons...

Now the question is... which build should I use? lol. (Forum fight, which is better...)

I'm also a little startled to hear that Rieekan aces is so alive and well. (There was a win for Rieekan aceholes I think already, full tourney win)

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

Very cool @GiledPallaeon. Somewhat. I feel more comfy seeing defenders than AA squadrons...

Now the question is... which build should I use? lol. (Forum fight, which is better...)

I'm also a little startled to hear that Rieekan aces is so alive and well. (There was a win for Rieekan aceholes I think already, full tourney win)

As far as I could tell, the nerfing made it go away not because it made the list ineffective but that it raised the skill floor required to run it effectively, and people lost interest in it after that. I can tell you that Roquax's version, known to some as the RCAF, is actually a Dodonna list and put Corran Horn squarely at the top of my Do Not F*** With List.

Both versions are effective, and both play to their creator's strengths. I'm aggressive and use Defenders because they're idiotproof, unlike aces. GK and Ard both play more considered games, and their fleets reflect that. I'd start with one of the ISD/Q lists, just because the alpha strike they enable can be very enlightening, but they're all very competitive lists once you've flown them enough.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

1 hour ago, GiledPallaeon said:

As far as I could tell, the nerfing made it go away not because it made the list ineffective but that it raised the skill floor required to run it effectively, and people lost interest in it after that. I can tell you that Roquax's version, known to some as the RCAF, is actually a Dodonna list and put Corran Horn squarely at the top of my Do Not F*** With List.

I'm also a little startled to hear that Rieekan aces is so alive and well. (There was a win for Rieekan aceholes I think already, full tourney win)

The regional win was Brik's, my friend from San Antonio, and two time top-4 finisher at worlds. I've been saying all along that The nerfing had little overall effect on Rieekan, and you may remember that some of us in the SA area had some disagreements about the real issues around Rieekan because of our long-standing experience playing Brik and others in the SA area. We knew when the nerf was announced that it was relatively minor at the very top of the skill level of play. I've rarely seen Brik lose more than one item a turn, and if he does, it is entirely possible that he already activated the flotilla (and its usually a flotilla) or got what he needed out of the squadron. In the case of the regional win, Brik was playing in one of the NW regionals and he mentioned there was a whole lot of "I've never seen anyone fly GH or an Assault Frigate that way before." So what GP says about it raising the skill level is right on. For that matter, even going back into the pre-nerf days, we had at least two other copiers that I've seen in tournaments, and it really is an extremely high skill list. The trick is that once you know how to play it extremely well, then it has exactly the right tools to deal with virtually every list. The biggest thing that the Rieekan nerf hit was the non-GH lists, which is what you were mostly getting in your local meta, and which is why you felt like the nerf did what it needed to do and are perhaps a bit surprise. My suspicion is that it really wasn't Rieekan that really made the list. It was Gallant Haven. Rieekan helps in certain situations, and he very much helped non-GH ace lists (pre-nerf) avoid absolutely getting clobbered on anti-squadron, but GH is such a tremendous point denier in the squadron game that you could literally pick any of Rieekan, Garm, or Dodonna depending upon mood and do alright there. For that matter, if you don't mind telescoping speed-3 to your opponent, then Cracken would work. Generally speaking, the difference between one commander and another in that set-up is going to be very slight margin between players at the top level.

I'll add that Brik spent most of the summer flying Dodonna. I'd also be curious about Roquax's version. I've been playing around with Dodonna/GH/Corran lately.

I think what you're going to see for Rieekan is that there will be far fewer people automatically choosing him.

I'm very curious what effect Truthiness' discussion of his list on a fairly major blog site and as a respected player in his own right, plus the effect of JJ as a highly respected player winning with Madine over the previous weekend will have on the meta. I've been running Madine to major effect for over a year now. So its great press for me to see how players are noticing his effectiveness, but also generally doing different things (I've always run a Liberty).

19 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

The regional win was Brik's, my friend from San Antonio, and two time top-4 finisher at worlds. I've been saying all along that The nerfing had little overall effect on Rieekan, and you may remember that some of us in the SA area had some disagreements about the real issues around Rieekan because of our long-standing experience playing Brik and others in the SA area. We knew when the nerf was announced that it was relatively minor at the very top of the skill level of play. I've rarely seen Brik lose more than one item a turn, and if he does, it is entirely possible that he already activated the flotilla (and its usually a flotilla) or got what he needed out of the squadron. In the case of the regional win, Brik was playing in one of the NW regionals and he mentioned there was a whole lot of "I've never seen anyone fly GH or an Assault Frigate that way before." So what GP says about it raising the skill level is right on. For that matter, even going back into the pre-nerf days, we had at least two other copiers that I've seen in tournaments, and it really is an extremely high skill list. The trick is that once you know how to play it extremely well, then it has exactly the right tools to deal with virtually every list. The biggest thing that the Rieekan nerf hit was the non-GH lists, which is what you were mostly getting in your local meta, and which is why you felt like the nerf did what it needed to do and are perhaps a bit surprise. My suspicion is that it really wasn't Rieekan that really made the list. It was Gallant Haven. Rieekan helps in certain situations, and he very much helped non-GH ace lists (pre-nerf) avoid absolutely getting clobbered on anti-squadron, but GH is such a tremendous point denier in the squadron game that you could literally pick any of Rieekan, Garm, or Dodonna depending upon mood and do alright there. For that matter, if you don't mind telescoping speed-3 to your opponent, then Cracken would work. Generally speaking, the difference between one commander and another in that set-up is going to be very slight margin between players at the top level.

I'll add that Brik spent most of the summer flying Dodonna. I'd also be curious about Roquax's version. I've been playing around with Dodonna/GH/Corran lately.

I think what you're going to see for Rieekan is that there will be far fewer people automatically choosing him.

I'm very curious what effect Truthiness' discussion of his list on a fairly major blog site and as a respected player in his own right, plus the effect of JJ as a highly respected player winning with Madine over the previous weekend will have on the meta. I've been running Madine to major effect for over a year now. So its great press for me to see how players are noticing his effectiveness, but also generally doing different things (I've always run a Liberty).

Yeah, I remember he was one of the ones who really got it going back when it was a source of tension. Offhand, Roquax used Corran, Ten, Luke, Dutch, Gold, a pair of VCX's, and I know I'm skipping something, Jan maybe. Ships were GH, Yavaris, and four flotillas, one of which was Adar, another BCC, another Comms Net, and I think the last one blank. The terrifying/irritating part is that he can outactivate the vast majority of lists, so what he'll do is save Adar for last, use him to throw Corran forward, then tap him so with Rogue he can fire again and scurry away scot-free back to the safety of GH. Now obviously that can be interrupted, but that is a very very difficult "can", and it's very disconcerting to fight into. I surrendered to him on round 2 of the final just because almost all of my squadrons were already dead, the ISD had three hull left, and was facing a GH double arc that hadn't happened yet.

As an aside about Gallant Haven, maybe I'm just too narrow-minded, but I don't think that's going to go anywhere. I can't come up with any way to nerf that card that would allow it to remain useful, let alone viable. Points increase won't really make a huge difference on the table, it's already incredibly hard to use, and reducing the effect by much at all means that the ship loses its value. And Lord knows nerfing the Assault Frigate is far from called for.

I'm not certain what effect Truth's list will have. Anyone who wasn't already following it or barking up a nearby tree probably won't be able to scratch up anything effective for this weekend, but later into December and next year I'd imagine a couple copycats will try. The issue with Madine, as someone who has used dual ET Libs, is that you're using him to create Cracken's effect, where you're degrading attack effectiveness. That requires a fair amount of ability to read a board state and then place one's ships where they need to be a turn ahead of where you are. Those fleets will outactivate most, so that's easier with the heavy hitters (both versions had a MC30 as I recall), and things like CR90s and Hammerheads are eminently expendable, but it's another skill floor list.

For myself, I'm not super sure how to beat it. Bombers are effective at destroying the ships, but they can be outflown fairly easily with that level of speed, and carriers are easily destroyed. Single Larges get swarmed, and Strategic lists have a hard time dealing with keeping the objective safe from so many attackers. I would be curious to see how my Regionals list does against it, especially given my penchant for aggressive, high velocity maneuvering, to see if I could leverage that to force a couple kills and a disengagement. In theory the Madine Liberty's should be able to handle that very well, but would be much more vulnerable to being caught out of place. The JJ dreadnoughts can duel at close range, the question would be keeping both ships in action and not letting the other guy pick one ship to beat up before vanishing into the blue. I dunno, I need table/Vassal time against it.

11 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

*snip for length

Okay. First, that's really cool. Second, I'd really want to know HOW to fly Gallant Haven (@brikhause, do you want to share?) . I'll be honest, I don't know how, nor can I conceptualize it. Third, how many activations?

And final most important vital point: People please understand me - To me, the most troublesome part of this list is not Rieekan(!), its the mass SQUADRONS. Especially, mass multirole rebel bombers and going to what called next-level mass mass squadrons by using Gallant Haven or Biggs to make your squadron ball literally survive even longer against another Rebel multirole bomber 134 mass squadron list.

Please never say that I think Rieekan is the worst part. That's why Verg and I both know that Dodonna being in the swap really doesn't surprise me. Gallant Haven and the squadrons do the work.

(Bolding isn't meant for tone in directly talking to you Verg. I wanna make this clear to everyone else.)

16 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

The trick is that once you know how to play it extremely well, then it has exactly the right tools to deal with virtually every list

This is pretty much what I found while playing the list. I actually commanded it around 10 times or so.

@GiledPallaeon @JJs Juggernaut Roquax. Can you guys show these two lists?

I don't think nerfing Gallant Haven is needed...
The main problem is squadrons being super efficient in both anti-ship and anti-squadron. you want the best anti-squadron in the game? Get more squadrons. The counter to it, is itself.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

@GiledPallaeon @JJs Juggernaut Roquax. Can you guys show these two lists?

I don't think nerfing Gallant Haven is needed...
The main problem is squadrons being super efficient in both anti-ship and anti-squadron. you want the best anti-squadron in the game? Get more squadrons. The counter to it, is itself.

The Madine list or the RCAF?

1 minute ago, GiledPallaeon said:

The Madine list or the RCAF?

uhh both. Idk what RCAF stands for.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

uhh both. Idk what RCAF stands for.

Royal Canadian Air Force, since @Roquax is one of the Toronto group that dominated World's that year. Truth's list is here. The RCAF is here.

2 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Royal Canadian Air Force, since @Roquax is one of the Toronto group that dominated World's that year. Truth's list is here. The RCAF is here.

Do you know why Luke and Dutch? I'd expect Wedge (and Norra if theres 1 more point)

Matt Antilles list is a real eye opener... Why not combine the two most powerful parts of Rebel play? Ackbar AND mass squadrons. and cover Ackbar's squadron weakness at the same time. (Ofc, cuz its expensive, and hes down to 4 ships)

Matt Antilles 5

Mark IIB Ackbar 133
Major Delin
Gunnery Team
Blast Doors
Boosted Comms

Mark IIB Adar Tallon 93
Gunnery Team
Boosted Comms

Transport BCC 35
Bright Hope
Toryn Farr

Transport Leia 23
Comms Net


Jan 19
Biggs 19
X-Wing 13
X-Wing 13
X-Wing 13
X-Wing 13
X-Wing 13
Gold 12


399

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

Do you know why Luke and Dutch? I'd expect Wedge (and Norra if theres 1 more point)

Dutch is there as anti-squadron support because his damage is unbraceable. Luke is there for shield penetrating damage and Escort, since he's the only X-wing there. His real job is to protect Ten, and to blow up smaller ships late game if necessary. And as far as Norra is concerned, IIRC Roquax was of the opinion her ability was not worth enough to slot her into the list over for example a B-wing, since she only helps somewhat against most ships, and experienced players know how to deny the crit effect when push comes to shove.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

Matt Antilles list is a real eye opener... Why not combine the two most powerful parts of Rebel play? Ackbar AND mass squadrons. and cover Ackbar's squadron weakness at the same time. (Ofc, cuz its expensive, and hes down to 4 ships)

Matt Antilles 5

Mark IIB Ackbar 133
Major Delin
Gunnery Team
Blast Doors
Boosted Comms

Mark IIB Adar Tallon 93
Gunnery Team
Boosted Comms

Transport BCC 35
Bright Hope
Toryn Farr

Transport Leia 23
Comms Net


Jan 19
Biggs 19
X-Wing 13
X-Wing 13
X-Wing 13
X-Wing 13
X-Wing 13
Gold 12


399

So Biggsballs are a lot less intimidating to me than something like the RCAF, and here's why. Biggs doesn't really help against anti-squadron fire from ships, not a lot anyway, because usually everyone is taking the same shots, so any concentration of damage just exposes that fighter to priority targeting. He's also ineffective against auto-damage, particularly Mauler and Soontir. Those two aces aren't necessarily the most durable possible squads, but they are both Scatter aces, so they can't be undervalued. The other reason the X's aren't too too scary is that their anti-ship punch is unreliable on a good day. Bomber helps a lot, but a black die those reds ain't. Every now and again you'll get a streak of lucky rolls, and BCC will also help, but I wouldn't count on it in a pinch. Other notes on that list, I wouldn't have Toryn and BCC on the same ship, one wants to be a lot closer than the other, very points-heavy target that way. I also would try to avoid sortieing my X's so far that I need Boosted Comms, and I would turn those points into ECM on both AF2s.

Yeah. I'd do something different with that list.

But good to know Roquax's thoughts... I'mma think about it. but losing Norra dmg seems... well. Inefficient. And dutch to be has always been hugely unreliable.

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. I'd do something different with that list.

But good to know Roquax's thoughts... I'mma think about it. but losing Norra dmg seems... well. Inefficient. And dutch to be has always been hugely unreliable.

In a vacuum Norra is an excellent addition to most bomber units. However, I have very rarely had the misfortune of suffering her attack runs on my ships before I started losing shields, and at that point she's a more durable, slightly better ASq Y-wing, for a lot more points. I'm amused you find Dutch unreliable. His attack pool is small enough he won't often be able to hurt Scatter aces, but against everyone else he's either highly annoying or highly deadly in my experience.

4 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

In a vacuum Norra is an excellent addition to most bomber units. However, I have very rarely had the misfortune of suffering her attack runs on my ships before I started losing shields, and at that point she's a more durable, slightly better ASq Y-wing, for a lot more points. I'm amused you find Dutch unreliable. His attack pool is small enough he won't often be able to hurt Scatter aces, but against everyone else he's either highly annoying or highly deadly in my experience.

Honestly he feels like he should be better than I've experienced. Idk if its literally consistently over and over large sample dice terrible dice luck or what. But I tend to utterly whiff with Dutch.

27 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

I'm not certain what effect Truth's list will have. Anyone who wasn't already following it or barking up a nearby tree probably won't be able to scratch up anything effective for this weekend, but later into December and next year I'd imagine a couple copycats will try. The issue with Madine, as someone who has used dual ET Libs, is that you're using him to create Cracken's effect, where you're degrading attack effectiveness. That requires a fair amount of ability to read a board state and then place one's ships where they need to be a turn ahead of where you are. Those fleets will outactivate most, so that's easier with the heavy hitters (both versions had a MC30 as I recall), and things like CR90s and Hammerheads are eminently expendable, but it's another skill floor list.

For myself, I'm not super sure how to beat it. Bombers are effective at destroying the ships, but they can be outflown fairly easily with that level of speed, and carriers are easily destroyed. Single Larges get swarmed, and Strategic lists have a hard time dealing with keeping the objective safe from so many attackers. I would be curious to see how my Regionals list does against it, especially given my penchant for aggressive, high velocity maneuvering, to see if I could leverage that to force a couple kills and a disengagement. In theory the Madine Liberty's should be able to handle that very well, but would be much more vulnerable to being caught out of place. The JJ dreadnoughts can duel at close range, the question would be keeping both ships in action and not letting the other guy pick one ship to beat up before vanishing into the blue. I dunno, I need table/Vassal time against it.

To pick up a couple of things: I find that most of the top lists have a skill floor, as you call it. Playing a Madine liberty was feast or famine, because if you lost the Liberty, you usually lost 8-3, but the margin was fair the other way. The old Clonisher style list was admitted at the time to have a floor to it. The people who were really good with it made it seen, but there were a lot of lesser practictioners. I think the high activation MC30 type lists fall into the same camp. I've seen three fairly good players, and if anything, the Madine CR90s are a lot like those lists. High activations, reading board state, likely with multiple inconsequential activations every turn that can set up the ones that really count, pretty maneuverable and snakey, even without Madine.

Beating the Madine lists. Lots of Rogues for one would do it. It might be extremely vulnerable to a whole lot else in the squadron meta, but it would do it. For example, Steve's old Crackenator is trading upwards in almost all aspects of the match-up against it. There's almost no reason not to castle in the corner against a list like that. Demo can take away a lot of space. Objectives with a lot of points. The squadrons are still going to feed on something, and it will take the Corvettes a while to whittle stuff down. End result is probably still 6-5/7-4, but in my experience, that is what tends to happen against a high activation lists with lots of maneuverability.

43 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

@GiledPallaeon @JJs Juggernaut Roquax. Can you guys show these two lists?

I don't think nerfing Gallant Haven is needed...
The main problem is squadrons being super efficient in both anti-ship and anti-squadron. you want the best anti-squadron in the game? Get more squadrons. The counter to it, is itself.

I say it is more the combination of GH and Jan Ors that makes it a powerful combo. Oh hey you have to do 3 damage to do a single point of damage to a squad. 5 if you want to do 2. Not to mention GH makes squads practically immune to most flak. It is quite a powerful title with a high skill floor but is really **** good when you get to the point where you are as skilled as Brik.

32 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah. I'd do something different with that list.

But good to know Roquax's thoughts... I'mma think about it. but losing Norra dmg seems... well. Inefficient. And dutch to be has always been hugely unreliable.

Norra versus non-Norra is an interesting question. The trick is knowing in your list when you've got enough tools to deal with the different types of lists you might encounter. I've seen her run in Aceholes and not run in Aceholes. There's also general meta considerations, so if you're seeing a lot of STM MC80s, then maybe Norra will help out more, but yeah, you're looking at the difference between possibly getting extra damage on Norra versus what is probably very reliable extra damage by taking a B-Wing or even a Scurg. One of the meanest ways to shut down enemy squads is with Dutch, and by the time you add in the possibility of Adar Tallon, Flight Controllers, Yavaris and Toryn Farr, and he brings some of the most vicious anti-squardon in the game. You've got to be able to trade up against a large enemy squadron ball. And I think its that combination of abilities that potentially allow you to tap out Dutch's potential. The Flight Controller/Toryn boost suddenly makes him much more reliable, even against Scatter Aces.

It really depends upon what you expect to see on the table across from you.

4 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

It really depends upon what you expect to see on the table across from you.

Finally, something MC30s won't like...