Hey guys, I could use some new boogeymen to test against. What builds do you think qualifies? The stronger the better. I've not been able to make my own very strong Sloane or BTA lists.

Well there are two ship flavors and three squadron flavors of Sloane that have done well. I can try to post outlines of those if you want them. If you want raw terror, my current dreadnought list is intimidating, and it ain't some BTA nonsense. You could also try Nose Punch, or dual DCap V-2s, Glad spam is always around (still kicking my face in on occasion), and you can use the Arqs/Quasar+squads I believe is finally finding its stride.

@Green Knight Blail wants to see your sloane list...

50 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

@Green Knight Blail wants to see your sloane list...

You called @Ginkapo ?

This is an effective Sloane list. The key here is the squad component/Sloane oc, but also the 5 activations, which allows you to leverage those squads and Avenger for maximum effect. I wouldn't say it's easy to fly though - it hinges on your ability to use those squads to max effect, and to deploy and maneuver well. Possible counters include other good Sloane lists and 6-activation Yavaris builds.

It's won me a lot of games on Vassal - and 1 sc + 1 nationals IRL.

---

Sloane ISD-2 w/SFO+ECM 8-squad (Nordics 2017)
Author: Green Knight

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 399/400
Commander: Admiral Sloane

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Admiral Sloane ( 24 points)
- Avenger ( 5 points)
- Skilled First Officer ( 1 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 171 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)
1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)
1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
1 Valen Rudor ( 13 points)
1 Ciena Ree ( 17 points)
1 Saber Squadron ( 12 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)

21 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

You called @Ginkapo ?

This is an effective Sloane list. The key here is the squad component/Sloane oc, but also the 5 activations, which allows you to leverage those squads and Avenger for maximum effect. I wouldn't say it's easy to fly though - it hinges on your ability to use those squads to max effect, and to deploy and maneuver well. Possible counters include other good Sloane lists and 6-activation Yavaris builds.

It's won me a lot of games on Vassal - and 1 sc + 1 nationals IRL.

---

Sloane ISD-2 w/SFO+ECM 8-squad (Nordics 2017)
Author: Green Knight

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 399/400
Commander: Admiral Sloane

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Admiral Sloane ( 24 points)
- Avenger ( 5 points)
- Skilled First Officer ( 1 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 171 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)
1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 "Howlrunner" ( 16 points)
1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
1 Valen Rudor ( 13 points)
1 Ciena Ree ( 17 points)
1 Saber Squadron ( 12 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)

Holy heckelphone. You have maybe 1.5 ships-worth only of anti-ship damage. So.. do you intend for this to just jump something and Avenger maul it then run from everything else that could harm your ISD? While using your squadrons to gain points on their squadrons?

I don't understand what your win cons are, can you show me?

And no bid for 1st.

I have not seen the actual list for nose punch 2 in a very long long time. Does @Drasnighta want to reveal it? Also, as objectively as we can be, does he think its truly Tier1, is the skill floor so high that it precludes a lot of less experienced drivers?

(I don't have a 2nd interdictor, so I can't run it anyway.... Nor do I have one to borrow.)

1 hour ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Well there are two ship flavors and three squadron flavors of Sloane that have done well. I can try to post outlines of those if you want them. If you want raw terror, my current dreadnought list is intimidating, and it ain't some BTA nonsense. You could also try Nose Punch, or dual DCap V-2s, Glad spam is always around (still kicking my face in on occasion), and you can use the Arqs/Quasar+squads I believe is finally finding its stride.

I want literally the best of the best. The strongest lists available, with the one noncompetitive caveat that it be Imperial. If possible, tried and true tournament winners, but I'll take speculation with good reason too.

Glad spam is fun, not sure if its highly competitive. (not saying it isn't)

I haven't tried 2x DC VSD2s.

8 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I want literally the best of the best. The strongest lists available, with the one noncompetitive caveat that it be Imperial. If possible, tried and true tournament winners, but I'll take speculation with good reason too.

Glad spam is fun, not sure if its highly competitive. (not saying it isn't)

I haven't tried 2x DC VSD2s.

Someone say 2x DC VSD2s?

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 398/400

Commander: Admiral Konstantine

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 104 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Admiral Konstantine ( 23 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Quad Battery Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 127 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost

4 VT-49 Decimators ( 88 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 Valen Rudor ( 13 points)

Not really tier 1 honestly.

Valen and Decimators bog down squads and Dengar makes shooting them have counter 2 with 8 health and a good punch. I mostly play it defensively. I got 4th in a SC and I could have gotten second if not for a stupid mistake in one game. I was also playing pretty casual at the time too. XD I haven't played against too many large ship based lists though. Konstantine can be swapped for Motti if you want.

I am not that arrogant ?

I don’t consider it anything of the sort.

I mean, let’s face it, if it truly were worth a ****, someone else would have tried it and win something so far...

i just had, and have, luck and fun with it, and it plays to my play style- destabilizing an opponent.

but like I said, I’m sure if it was “Teir 1” ... (**** I hate it when **** is broken into teir systems when it’s thusly inferred you’re an idiot or an ******* for playing a certain “teir” or not...). Then there would be more than my data points.

I note you haven't shared it publically to my knowledge, so maybe you want to keep the surprise factor.

Nah, I'm just saying I want to test to strongest stuff first. Saves time.

22 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Holy heckelphone. You have maybe 1.5 ships-worth only of anti-ship damage. So.. do you intend for this to just jump something and Avenger maul it then run from everything else that could harm your ISD? While using your squadrons to gain points on their squadrons?

I don't understand what your win cons are, can you show me?

And no bid for 1st.

It is rather simple really.

My squads pick apart your squads, then your ships, as soon as can be arranged. Then Avenger wipes up the mess. Finally the squads bag any late game stragglers.

To accomplish this you need to deploy well, move well and use squads well.

The list sometimes table opponents, but it mainly goes around 8 points a win.

You'll also find that it gives up points with great reluctance, which is important for final mov.

Should you ever lose it's probably going to be a very slight loss.

The ISD can run, but you're better served by it not engaging too early.

After a certain point in any game it becomes almost impossible to lose it. Depends on what you're facing.

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I note you haven't shared it publically to my knowledge, so maybe you want to keep the surprise factor.

Nah, I'm just saying I want to test to strongest stuff first. Saves time.

The last formal iteration is buried in the Article prediction thread.

the only other reason it’s not written down is I haven’t formalized it and keep testin and changing it

24 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

It is rather simple really.

My squads pick apart your squads, then your ships, as soon as can be arranged. Then Avenger wipes up the mess. Finally the squads bag any late game stragglers.

To accomplish this you need to deploy well, move well and use squads well.

The list sometimes table opponents, but it mainly goes around 8 points a win.

You'll also find that it gives up points with great reluctance, which is important for final mov.

Should you ever lose it's probably going to be a very slight loss.

I don't understand. Those AA squadrons are gonna do paltry dmg to ships. Avenger can't be everywhere at once. Heck as a ISD, your only real no go zone is out the front.

Say I play MC80s or Assault Frigates, Those lists are bordering 3+ or like near 4 ships worth of firepower, compared to maybe 1.5 on the ISD only. I don't understand, how you can be in position to deal damage and not also be worried about taking huge damage.

I know Sloane can knock out some defense tokens, but still.

--

Do I have it wrong? That your dedicated Sloane AA will kill my medium screen 80-90pts squadrons without pause, then the Sloane accuracies will cause the ISD's random non-front shots to hit much harder than expected, while also somehow being able to avoid dying under sheer volume of focus fire from lists that have nearly 200%+ its firepower?

(heck, even compare it to something like Undeadguy's VSD2 GSD GSD Raider with ER)

--

Plus, flak and a medium AA screen should take out some of your squadrons too. And each of your Gozanti's is still vulnerable to being killed. I don't understand how it has a hard time losing points.

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

This is an effective Sloane list.

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I don't understand. Those AA squadrons are gonna do paltry dmg to ships. Avenger can't be everywhere at once. Heck as a ISD, your only real no go zone is out the front.

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!

I think you're underestimating the power of Sloane rerolling crits. You have like a 90-95% chance of getting a useful effect out of each of those squadrons' shots. The scatters--along with judicious flying--protect from flak quite effectively.

Yes, their direct damage output is less than a bomber's, but 1) ALL of your extremely specialized antisquadron wing is now also effective against ships, and 2) don't underestimate the indirect damage dealt by exhausting a brace/evade/scatter before an Avenger shot.

16 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I don't understand. Those AA squadrons are gonna do paltry dmg to ships. Avenger can't be everywhere at once. Heck as a ISD, your only real no go zone is out the front.

Say I play MC80s or Assault Frigates, Those lists are bordering 3+ or like near 4 ships worth of firepower, compared to maybe 1.5 on the ISD only. I don't understand, how you can be in position to deal damage and not also be worried about taking huge damage.

I know Sloane can knock out some defense tokens, but still.

--

Do I have it wrong? That your dedicated Sloane AA will kill my medium screen 80-90pts squadrons without pause, then the Sloane accuracies will cause the ISD's random non-front shots to hit much harder than expected, while also somehow being able to avoid dying under sheer volume of focus fire from lists that have nearly 200%+ its firepower?

(heck, even compare it to something like Undeadguy's VSD2 GSD GSD Raider with ER)

--

Plus, flak and a medium AA screen should take out some of your squadrons too. And each of your Gozanti's is still vulnerable to being killed. I don't understand how it has a hard time losing points.

There are many permutations, but just one simple example:

I bag your squads. You get very few points in return.

I kill one of your combat ships. Maybe you get a flotilla?

That's already a 7-3 to me, with no real chance for you to win.

Because how would you win?

You can't get my squads. And even if you bag a flotilla or two that's very few points.

And since you're out deployed you're not in a position to kill my ISD usually.

Now again this is very simplified and don't apply equally to all games.

But the essence is I win any squad fight. Then I have sufficient killing power to win with satisfactory margin, all the while it's hard to score pts against this list.

You really should try playing against something like this. It can be a real learning experience.

Just now, Green Knight said:

There are many permutations, but just one simple example:

I bag your squads. You get very few points in return.

I kill one of your combat ships. Maybe you get a flotilla?

That's already a 7-3 to me, with no real chance for you to win.

Because how would you win?

You can't get my squads. And even if you bag a flotilla or two that's very few points.

And since you're out deployed you're not in a position to kill my ISD usually.

Now again this is very simplified and don't apply equally to all games.

But the essence is I win any squad fight. Then I have sufficient killing power to win with satisfactory margin, all the while it's hard to score pts against this list.

You really should try playing against something like this. It can be a real learning experience.

Yes, this is what I was asking. You're taking only one bite out of the happy meal, but, importantly, more one bite than your opponent.

But do you not lose some squads to their squadrons and AA?

Also, it shouldn't be that hard to gun down a few Gozantis. Especially with red dice ships. AFs and VSDs.

I'll consider it.

@Green Knight Out of curiosity (and if it's not too inconvenient), how have you managed games against a Gallant Haven/Yavaris + Aces style list (Rieekan Aceholes/Dodonna/etc)? It will probably have the same number of activations and is unlikely to be outdeployed (particularly if you are first player). You aren't really going to be able to alpha strike the squadrons down, thanks to Gallant Haven (followed by Yavaris double tap). I'm curious what your game plan is and how you see it playing out. Are you just diving in with Dengar and hitting Gallant haven with squads (hopefully spending Brace/Evade/Redir) and then smacking it down while relying on counter to keep you in the squadron game?

1 minute ago, Rikash said:

@Green Knight Out of curiousity (and if it's not too inconvenient), how have you managed games against a Gallant Haven/Yavaris + Aces style list (Rieekan Aceholes/Dodonna/etc)? It will probably have the same number of activations and is unlikely to be outdeployed (particularly if you are first player). You aren't really going to be able to alpha strike the squadrons down, thanks to Gallant Haven (followed by Yavaris double tap). I'm curious what your game plan is and how you see it playing out. Are you just diving in with Dengar and hitting Gallant haven with squads (hopefully spending Brace/Evade/Redir) and then smacking it down while relying on counter to keep you in the squadron game?

That is indeed a very good counter list. Especially one with 6 activations.

But yeah, timing a good attack run on the af is one way of doing it. It's quite risky though, as it can go horribly wrong.

Or you can try not to engage much, go for a six-five and hope to compensate in other games.

So is this really the peak of the (Imperial) structural meta* right now? Does this have a name? "BTA Sloane and the Minnows"?

Given the results, I certainly wish that I had decided to bring this list to my recent Regional, rather the (IMO somewhat) sub-par list that did bring.

The thing is, I have faith in the constructed meta** to evolve into balance against strong contenders for hegemony, thus bringing the hegemony down. For example, I could see MSUs with ultra-high initiative bids being able to try to stay out of arc of the Avenger, and come in from the rear/side to chew away the flotillas, before going at the main.

But then, I don't know your doctrine, and I'm only giving this about five seconds worth of thought.

* By which I mean the most effective possible list out of the whole realm of possible builds with the currently available expansions.
** By which I mean the most effective lists in the realm of builds that are actually being built by people who play enough to be noticed.

@Mikael Hasselstein I wouldn't know. I quit using BTA before the wave hit the real table. Tested it on Vassal for a bit, but find it limited and a bit dull.

SloVENGER on the other hand can be very fun indeed. It's a fleet that rewards good squad play, but it's not forgiving if you make mistakes.

Effective. And fun. Good combo.

12 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

So is this really the peak of the (Imperial) structural meta* right now? Does this have a name? "BTA Sloane and the Minnows"?

Given the results, I certainly wish that I had decided to bring this list to my recent Regional, rather the (IMO somewhat) sub-par list that did bring.

The thing is, I have faith in the constructed meta** to evolve into balance against strong contenders for hegemony, thus bringing the hegemony down. For example, I could see MSUs with ultra-high initiative bids being able to try to stay out of arc of the Avenger, and come in from the rear/side to chew away the flotillas, before going at the main.

But then, I don't know your doctrine, and I'm only giving this about five seconds worth of thought.

* By which I mean the most effective possible list out of the whole realm of possible builds with the currently available expansions.
** By which I mean the most effective lists in the realm of builds that are actually being built by people who play enough to be noticed.

There are a lot of other good imperial lists. Especially stuff with Demo and 6 activations and a bid for first. (cough).

Or just BTAvenger alone + other stuff.

I would wager on a good bomber list with VSDs too.

Past that though, idk.

Honest to good goodness, I can make a 2 ISD 2-4 Gozanti list work. Depends on how much you fear squadrons.

2 ISD 2 Gozanti, 6squadrons, Sloane or Moffy J. Definitely a very decent Tier 2. I simply haven't done Tier1 level testing, but If you want a good Tier2 that won't lose hard vs Tier1s, try that.

How are you defining your "tiers"?