Can a Tie Advanced spend a target lock from a friendly ship with Targenting Synchronizer to reroll attack dice and then ad a crit using the Advanced Targeting Computer?

No. Page 16 of the FAQ.

Quote

Advanced Targeting Computer
Darth Vader can be equipped with the Advanced Targeting Computer Upgrade card.
A TIE Advanced equipped with Adv. Targeting Computer needs to have a target lock on the defender in order to use the ability. The TIE Advanced cannot use a target lock on the defender from a friendly ship equipped with Targeting Synchronizer for this requirement nor can it spend that target lock if it uses the ability of Adv. Targeting Computer.

Thanks.

I don't think it's intended to work that way, but the card's text and the FAQ seem to allow it, since both only mention spending a target lock to reroll dice after adding a crit from Adv. Targeting Computer.

The card and the FAQ don't say that you can't use Advanced Targeting Computer if you have spent a target lock to reroll your attack dice.

I thought it was possible, but I do not use it because many people that I play with do not believe it.

Thanks.

Well the FAQ specifically rules it out.

@joeshmoe554 If you spent your TL to reroll, you wouldn't have it available to trigger ATC. And the FAQ specifically says the TIE Advanced must have it's own lock in order to use ATC.

Just now, Parravon said:

Well the FAQ specifically rules it out.

@joeshmoe554 If you spent your TL to reroll, you wouldn't have it available to trigger ATC. And the FAQ specifically says the TIE Advanced must have it's own lock in order to use ATC.

But, if you spend a target lock from Targetting Synchronizer to reroll your attack dice, there is no language that says you cannot add a crit from Advanced Targeting Computer after. Like I said, the FAQ was probably trying to say that, but for some reason they only repeated the language from the card itself that says you can't spend a target lock after using ATC to add a crit.

2 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

But, if you spend a target lock from Targetting Synchronizer to reroll your attack dice, there is no language that says you cannot add a crit from Advanced Targeting Computer after. Like I said, the FAQ was probably trying to say that, but for some reason they only repeated the language from the card itself that says you can't spend a target lock after using ATC to add a crit.

What about the card text itself that states "you cannot spend target locks during this attack"?

The way I see it, it's a cancellation clause. If you spend a TL, regardless of its origin, you cannot use ATC. And if you use ATC, you cannot spend TLs. And remember " cannot " is absolute.

"During this attack" refers to during the entire attack or only from the use of the advanced computer?

The same "During this attack" appears in the accuracy corrector and we can modify the attack dice before using it, but not after that.

Why this case is different?

thanks.

2 minutes ago, Whisper10 said:

"During this attack" refers to during the entire attack or only from the use of the advanced computer?

The same "During this attack" appears in the accuracy corrector and we can modify the attack dice before using it, but not after that.

Why this case is different?

thanks.

During this attack refers to the entire process.

Accuracy Corrector states " When attacking, during the "Modify Attack Dice" Step... " and later states " Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack. ". So it refers to a specific timing window within the attack and forbids modification after that.

Ok, thanks.

8 hours ago, Parravon said:

No. Page 16 of the FAQ.

This does not state that TS can't be used to reroll before using ATC. It only states that you can't use TS to reroll after you use ATC.

The intention is pretty obvious, but FFG's are bad at writing complete and clear rules sometimes.

56 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

This does not state that TS can't be used to reroll before using ATC. It only states that you can't use TS to reroll after you use ATC.

Try reading the entry in the FAQ. It is very clear and not up for debate.
You CANT use a TL from any source whatsoever to reroll dice if you want the benefit of ATC!

Thing is, the original question isn't actually answered by that FAQ - because precdent in x-wing is that restrictions aren't retroactive. ATC is effectively establishing a retroactive restriction, which is weird.

Consider the following case:

Vader is locked on Poe, as is Quickdraw, who has TS, and is at range 2 of Vader.

Vader shoots. He rolls 2 blanks.

At this point, he's not used ATC, so he's not blocked from using QD's lock. So he rerolls using QD's lock.

He's still not used ATC. This is all perfectly legal so far. If we stopped here, there wouldn't be any issue, and we could do just that.

Now, he uses ATC. The FAQ doesn't stop him, it doesn't say he can't use ATC if he's already spent a lock, it establishes a restriction FROM the point of using it. From now on, he can't reroll using QD's lock.

But nothing stopped him using ATC after doing so, and nothing stopped him doing so before he used ATC. He could choose to do so and NOT use ATC, so merely HAVING ATC shouldn't stop him doing so. Because there's no reason to use ATC anything other than last thing in your modification step. But if it's retroactive, then he got legally to a position where the game state was illegal, and that shouldn't be possible.

So, what are we supposed to do? Reset those rerolled dice to blanks? Nothing tells us to do that, and you can't just randomly flip dice to what you think they SHOULD be otherwise all my dice would be crits and evades. That's the key point for me. That you can entirely legally get to an illegal game state if you read the restriction on ATC as being retroactive. We've already spent a lock, but we can't have already spent a lock, and we can't reset to the point where we didn't spend it, without breaking the rules in a way the cards don't tell us to.

In the same way, Carnor's ability doesn't stop you from having taken a focus action before he was at range 1 of you. It establishes a restriction after he arrives (and as a result, you can still procket him in the face).

Retroactive abilities would set a really weird precedent, and it's one I'd really prefer they didn't set. Because it means that the basic rule of 'everything happens in sequence, and nothing can affect things that have already happened' is broken, and I really don't like that can of worms.

The FAQ definitely stops him from using ATC THEN using TS to reroll, but it definitely DOESN'T stop the other way round. It should. But it doesn't. And assuming it DOES, and reacting as such doesn't change that.

The FAQ would need to say 'you can't use ATC if you've spent a TL via TS' to actually work to prevent the combo.

But as noted above, it's obvious what they're trying to do, they're just not actually succeeding . It's hugely irritating that they don't seem to be able to get their FAQs proofed by people who know the rules fully and completely in their competitive game with tournaments with hundreds of players and prizes worth hundreds of pounds. I could have looked at that entry and told them there was still an issue with it. I did, the instant it was published, albeit, not in a forum they actually read, because I don't have a way to talk to them in a forum they actually read except for the rules questions line, and I'm becoming more dubious whether they read that too tbh.

Honestly, my preferred solution would just be to errata ATC to say 'When attacking with your primary weapon, if you have a target lock on the defender and have not spent a target lock during this attack , you may add 1 [crit] result to your roll. If you do, you cannot spend target locks during this attack.' OR 'When attacking with your primary weapon, if you have a target lock on the defender, at the start of the 'attacker modifies attack dice' step, you may add 1 [crit] result to your roll. If you do, you cannot spend target locks during this attack.' Additions in bold.

There are two ways to write it that actually work with the intended restrictions - one forces you to use it FIRST meaning that its restriction is in place right from the beginning, the other just block you using it if you spent a lock.

There's no reason not to errata it - it's not like they knew TS was going to exist when they wrote it, and updating your living game to match new components shouldn't be a problem.

5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

There's no reason not to errata it - it's not like they knew TS was going to exist when they wrote it, and updating your living game to match new components shouldn't be a problem.

They did way more invasive errata anyway lol

7 hours ago, Holmelund said:

Try reading the entry in the FAQ. It is very clear and not up for debate.
You CANT use a TL from any source whatsoever to reroll dice if you want the benefit of ATC!

I am working from the FAQ entry. But you're right, it isn't up for debate: it does not say that you can't use TS's TL and then ATC.

If you believe otherwise then you are simply wrong. It's in black and white in front of everyone.

14 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

I am working from the FAQ entry. But you're right, it isn't up for debate: it does not say that you can't use TS's TL and then ATC.

If you believe otherwise then you are simply wrong. It's in black and white in front of everyone.

And if you read ATC it clearly says " you cannot spend target locks during this attack", if you use a TL during the attack you can't use ATC.

1 hour ago, Oberron said:

And if you read ATC it clearly says " you cannot spend target locks during this attack", if you use a TL during the attack you can't use ATC.

And it didn't say that until you used it. So you could quite legally spend the TL before you used it.

5 hours ago, Oberron said:

And if you read ATC it clearly says " you cannot spend target locks during this attack", if you use a TL during the attack you can't use ATC.

Geez, cheery pick much? let's try being a bit more honest here:

Quote

If you do [add a Crit result], you cannot spendd target locks during this attacks.

Are you really going to try and tell me that I can't do a thing because something I might do in the future might set off a conditional effect which tells me I can't?

On 12/5/2017 at 9:40 AM, thespaceinvader said:

Consider the following case:

Vader is locked on Poe, and has ATC, as is Quickdraw, who has TS, and is at range 2 of Vader.

Vader shoots. He rolls 2 blanks.

At this point, he's not used ATC, so he's not blocked from using QD's lock. So he rerolls using QD's lock.

He's still not used ATC. This is all perfectly legal so far. If we stopped here, there wouldn't be any issue, and we could do just that.

Does anyone disagree with this part?

If you try to use ATC in conjuction with Target Lock from TS, prepare to be disapointed.

Any TO/Judge with an ounce of sense will politely tell you to read the FAQ, stop trying to bend it out of shape to suit your needs and get on with the game.

31 minutes ago, Holmelund said:

If you try to use ATC in conjuction with Target Lock from TS, prepare to be disapointed.

Any TO/Judge with an ounce of sense will politely tell you to read the FAQ, stop trying to bend it out of shape to suit your needs and get on with the game.

I don't disagree. I just want the text of it to be right.

Saying you can't use a TL from TS and then ATC is bending the actual rules to do something else. We're the ones playing by the rules.

We'll have a lot of fun with a general precedent that restrictions are applied retroactively - what happens when you SLAM into an asteroid and are required to skip the Perform Action step that you're currently in? Time paradox!