Time for Potato wisdom...

My perspective on the whole "is it OP argument" centers around if the card is considered an "auto include". Examples of this would be Demo back in the day. It was dang near impossible to play in a tournament without 80%+ imperial lists containing demo. Did that mean it was unbeatable? No. But should a card be considered so good that its an auto include? Another example is Major Ryhmer. I remember I looked up the stats for Warlord website and it was something absurd that imperial lists with bombers had an roughly 75% probability that they would also have Major Rhymer. Again, I don't think lists with Major Rhymer were unbeatable but the card definitely fell in the "auto include" category.

That is bad and I 100% approved of the nerf bat FFG brought down on those cards... in fact I think it took them way to long to do it.

Now to the BT Avenger... is it unbeatable? No. But is it an auto include when fielding an ISD? Debatable as the previous posts have indicated. But if its debatable than there may be an argument to be made that maybe something is out of wack. I think its too early for for the nerf bat but hopefully its be watched by the people in high places.

I really like @Ardaedhel 's point about decentralizing. Well, I like all his points, but if BTAvenger gets people to play with fleets that don't rely on one key ship then that's a win for variety in the meta. I agree it's strong, and against the right fleets it's game winning, but I wouldn't categorize it any stronger than certain other ships that are capable of dealing heavy damage in a first player situation.

In my case, I faced Gus' BTAvenger in round 3 of the Regional. I actually wasn't afraid of BTAvenger - because an Xi-7 Gunnery Team ISD is much more dangerous to my list. I fielded a Landomition, Salvation, and AFMk II as my heavy hitting ships, with some non-bomber squads (except Gold Sqn). Gus could kill any one of my ships (try to kill Landomition), and I'd have enough Sato-boosted firepower to likely take the ISD down anyways. In the end he made a mistake in charging the ISD in too early, allowing me to delete it in one round of horrendous firepower - it never got a shot off. Demo died shortly after and it was a 9-2 for me.

@Church14 I think your assessment of objective based mission effectiveness underrates the points potential of the missions. Most Wanted placed on a BTVenger ISD is an extra 120 points if you kill it - which you likely will with those extra dice. Sensor Lanes has the potential for 45-60 points per turn for second player, with the right build. And Fire Lanes I'd say is the weakest of them all. I think there was a reason both my opponents who went first chose my fire Lanes...

11 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

The BT avenger is inherently weak to bomber swarms and MSUs. I just played a BTA list over the weekend and the only fleet that beat it was an MSU. 2 mc30s, a cr90, a hammeread, and 2 gr75s. I couldn't kill squat. Lost by 51 points

I really don't think they're OP, it just takes the right mindset to avoid. (I saw a few liberties arc dodge the heck out of a similar fleet this weekend).

See my take away is that you couldn't kill anything much but neither could they. I wouldn't say that fleet is a good match up against yours unless they have more activations and player. Even admonition isn't likely to survive a single front volley from bt avenger. So if you're worst result was a tiny loss that adds weight to the power of the combo.

I didn't see any ordnance equipped on a big ship ever. Maybe ffg needs to add something like big ships only to fix them.

I am excited of things we will be able to do with KISD and probably MC75.

18 hours ago, Payens said:

I know that they are not really broken but wondering if they need do have the added wording of can only equip on small or medium like the D-Caps. I say this because I have never seen boarding troopers run on anything but an ISD.

From the articles when they came out I think they were meant to allow smaller ships like the hammerhead or the quasar to hit above their point value. But it seems they are mostly being used to allow ISD's that already hit hard to hit harder.

Seems like it is working as intended to me. An ISD is supposed to be boarding ships.

Both on thematic and to help those larger ships which for some time were getting shoved out in favor of more activations. So of course an ISD should be getting all the boarding troopers.

The introduction of Boarding Troopers into the meta was interesting. It happened around the time when many thought the squadron game was overpowering capital ships and when the most effective counter to squadron-heavy fleets was MSU fleets, ones that benefited from activation padding from flotillas. Granted, Rieekan had just been nerfed and life boat flotillas had been invalidated, but those things didn't affect what would make those fleets strong against Boarding Troopers.

So. Enter Boarding Troopers. At a time when big ships were being maligned, people quickly sussed out that Boarding Troopers was practically built for an ISD with the Avenger title. But this should have really done nothing to the metagame at the time, because the counters to Boarding Troopers-Avenger fleets are...the fleets that were already strong in the meta right before it appeared. Some thought that Sloane leading a Boarding Troopers-Avenger fleet would rock the metagame, but I don't think that's what's happened. Instead, BTAvenger has been supported with high activation count and high bid to get a nasty first-last attack that is similar to what DeMSU lists did way back when. (Note to those without the background: DeMSU is a high-activation fleet with a Demolisher-bearing Gladiator as its focus.)

But way back when, we didn't have the tools of the current metagame. We didn't have the history of Rieekan Aces dominance and MC30 spam. So what has BTAvenger really done to the metagame? It seems to me its added an option to deal with fleets centered on a big ship, but it's vulnerable to fleets that have already been demonstrated to be pretty strong. Other than that, it's going to come down to how you play it. It seems like a fleet whose power floor is pretty high, but its power ceiling isn't much higher than its floor.

Avenger players, IMHO, want a list of things, and they usually can’t have all of them: 1. A nice big target worth killing. Not guaranteed at all. 2. The ability to catch that target. Engine techs, speed 3, and good deployment all help fight this. (So does going first.) 3. Activation advantage. Yes, they can bring Gozantis, but Rebel GR75s are cheaper, and it hurts number 4. A backup plan. Avenger is often the main bruiser of the fleet. If it dies, the whole thing can fall apart rather quickly. 5. Not to bite off more than it can chew. Yes, Avenger hurts. What else hurts? 2 ISD1s. 3+ MC30s. A bunch of Raiders. Even Yavaris with Keyan and/or Norra. They all want to be close too, and they all hurt. Bearing all those things in mind, maybe the question shouldn’t be “Is BTAvenger OP?” but “How do I protect my single expensive large ship from this build designed specifically to counter it?”

2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Avenger players, IMHO, want a list of things, and they usually can’t have all of them: 1. A nice big target worth killing. Not guaranteed at all. 2. The ability to catch that target. Engine techs, speed 3, and good deployment all help fight this. (So does going first.) 3. Activation advantage. Yes, they can bring Gozantis, but Rebel GR75s are cheaper, and it hurts number 4. A backup plan. Avenger is often the main bruiser of the fleet. If it dies, the whole thing can fall apart rather quickly. 5. Not to bite off more than it can chew. Yes, Avenger hurts. What else hurts? 2 ISD1s. 3+ MC30s. A bunch of Raiders. Even Yavaris with Keyan and/or Norra. They all want to be close too, and they all hurt. Bearing all those things in mind, maybe the question shouldn’t be “Is BTAvenger OP?” but “How do I protect my single expensive large ship from this build designed specifically to counter it?”

Have played Avenger BT for some time in a 6-activation fleet (+3 Raiders, 2 Gozantis), can verify.

It works fine but it has serious bad matchups and counter-play and if you can't get the Avenger to meaningfully connect with something juicy, it can definitely feel like your one-trick pony fell flat. The main concern if you're using a big juicy ship is how best to avoid the Avenger, which can be done in most cases - the major exception being speed 2 front arc ships that are out-deployed and are themselves deployed traveling towards the enemy. There's no escaping that one.

Parking a flotilla in its flight path can be helpful, given the ISD-I has about a 62.5% chance of generating an accuracy out of its front arc (prior to Leading Shots - with Leading Shots, you're sitting at around 81.2% total, assuming the ISD is willing to reroll all blues and reds to go accuracy fishing, which it should). You can't count on it not destroying the flotilla, but buying even one or two rounds of distance between Avenger and what it wants to attack is often worth it and can result in a mad scramble later in the game where Avenger recklessly chases after its target to finally get a good return on investment.

5 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

it and can result in a mad scramble later in the game where Avenger recklessly chases after its target to finally get a good return on investment.

Every time I've won against Avenger is when I've let it chase me. I've had two games go 4-5 rounds with no shots as my MC80 and MC30 ran away. Both times, the other players got anxious trying to get their ISD into position, which allowed me to set up my MC30 for a first activiation, followed by the MC80. The only things to go down in those games were Avenger and a few squadrons, but it's a huge point swing.

Is it as entertaining? Not so much. However, I'm pretty new, and I'm terrified of BT Avenger. I'll take a 6-5 over a 9-2 any (tournament) day, which would be the difference between my MC80 going down and nothing but squadrons going down.

On 12/4/2017 at 11:09 AM, Space_Cowboy17 said:

I think BT should require a Squadron Dial to activate.

But with Thrawn coming out, that won't matter...

Anyway, I like the BTAvenger combo. It's far from the "unbeatable" combo some people are calling it. I played a game against one of the top local players in the ACFC (Alamo City Fleet Command), who was able to make sure by positioning his ships well that the only thing I could smash with BTA was a flotilla with jamming fields .

Even if you can't avoid it entirely or squadron-swarm it into oblivion, a well-kitted out capital ship has a non-zero chance of surviving a BTA attack and getting in a counter-strike. In one tourney, I had to shoot an MC80 (Liberty) twice with my BTA ISD to kill it head on. If the other player had been able to escape, he wouldn't have gotten obliterated and rammed. (It also probably has to do with the fact that he got Compartment Fire against Avenger, ie goodbye tokens )

In sum, it can be countered, but it is very powerful in the right hands.

On 04/12/2017 at 8:58 PM, Ginkapo said:

Which we know is being adressed with two (unique?) Officers in the new wave, though the specifics are unclear. So no point duscussing till it is spoilt properly.

Well ok. Grab your pitchforks.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

Well ok. Grab your pitchforks.

Make sure it’s only half a pitchfork for half the spoiling so far, if the scurtlebutt is to be read.

On 12/4/2017 at 1:08 PM, Space_Cowboy17 said:

Also, just because there exists A counter, or an example where a combo did not win, does not mean it is not OP.

OP can lose games and still be OP, OP is anything that is way more effective than the skill required to use it, such that it crowds out other fleet design options under the weight of its ease of use and power.

The question is not "can it be beaten," because there will always be example where it can, but "is this as skill demanding as other lists of its same power level."

If the answer is no then it is OP

So you put BTAvenger in the same design space as Gallant Haven Aceholes? Gallant Haven+Jan+Biggs is the only combo I feel breaks an entire part of the game. Though I do agree that flotilla activation games are at the core of several issues with the game that frustrate players.

Great, now i will take ion canon batteries on every ship...