Another factor is that a lot of folks do not run large ships at all, nor ones that are very high point costs, so the BT/Avenger becomes expensive overkill. I've set up my very expensive ISD-I to kill a ship that is half or less than half its cost.

Add to that the likelihood of getting into range 1 of many of the smaller ship fleets and its a bit 'one trick pony'

Not to mention there are good hard counters to it, Lando and targeting scramblers immediately spring to mind forcing dice re rolls after dice modification.

3 minutes ago, Palanthas said:

My MC80H disagrees with you. I faced an BT Avenger list this last weekend ran by a very skilled opponent and I managed to keep my mc80H out of range 1 and for the most part only in long range of the ISD. Set up is key when facing a BT Avenger as well as using navigate and engine techs to create space.

BT is at close, and using ET effectively makes it speed 3...

Its dangerous and should be respected, its changed the meta up bit does not define it and has yet to win a tournament in Georgia

@Palanthas

Everyone here knows that an MC80 worth its salt will have ET, thus removing it from the class of speed 2 ships. You know good and well what I am saying, no need to nit pick when we all treat MC80's as speed 3 b/c of ET.

Your counter example actually supports my statement. "using navigation and ET are important to create space," if speed 2 is not a concern, then why mention how important ET's were in creating that space?

I think avenger boarding troopers combo is strong, but it's not reekien aces strong. I have beaten Avenger boarding troopers before, I think its strong but not unbeatable, at the 3 regionals we have seen avenger boarding troopers won one rebel list won the others and ISD avenger lists where still present at regionals if memory serves correctly I don't think it's as bad as some are making it out to be.

One of the most dangerous ships in the game will be the new Cymoon. With the correct upgrades it will be far better than BT/Avenger.

2 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

@Palanthas

Everyone here knows that an MC80 worth its salt will have ET, thus removing it from the class of speed 2 ships. You know good and well what I am saying, no need to nit pick when we all treat MC80's as speed 3 b/c of ET.

Your counter example actually supports my statement. "using navigation and ET are important to create space," if speed 2 is not a concern, then why mention how important ET's were in creating that space?

Since you are moving the goal posts, there are no rebel speed 2 ships that can't take ET. So my argument of smart set up and positioning is valid.

The only Empire ship that is speed two that can't have ETs is the VSD.

So I take it your arguing that an ISD can catch up and kill a VSD? It is the only speed 2 ship out there currently that doesn't have ET availability. So the poor VSD is getting caught and shot by the might Bt Avenger, it has 8 hull and decent shields and can withstand an attack from it.

And then there's the other side of the coin - an enemy who is flying a swarm of small ships.

Congrats on that TRC90 kill with your BT/Avenger!

you don't see many D Cap Vic Lists because they are in danger of getting jumped by BTA and flown by. Also things like the Pelta and Interdictor which typically do not take ET, because they use those slots for other purposes, are hard to use in a BTA meta. They could be built to ET and escape a BTA but then they are not filling the role they are intended to fill in a fleet, so what is the point? They get skipped over for faster options.

What % of MC80s run ET compared to what % or Interdictors and Peltas run ET? surely you don't think those % are close.

The ship 2 ships that actually have most to fear from a BT/Avenger are the ISD and the VSD. Mostly for the fact that they have to attack more or less head on and that is BAD against BT/Avenger, most Rebel ships will maintain speed three and look to keep out of arc and range 1, which really isn't hard to do, or they will be MSU type lists where the death of a single ship to keep an ISD out of position is no biggie. This has been the 'issue' with the big Empire ships from the start, that forward arc is a liability :-)
JJ was brought to the game to help resolve that. BT's were introduced to help resolve that. The VSD's speed is not an issue, the fact that it cannot bring it's guns to bear is.

Without getting totally off topic, the VSD and ISD's should have front and side arcs that carry the same dice quantity (front arc dice), BUT you can only shoot from one arc at the same target. The very shape and design of these ships and the positioning of their guns would allow them all to fire forward or all to fire from the side. It's rear arc is fine as is.

1 minute ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

you don't see many D Cap Vic Lists because they are in danger of getting jumped by BTA and flown by. Also things like the Pelta and Interdictor which typically do not take ET, because they use those slots for other purposes, are hard to use in a BTA meta. They could be built to ET and escape a BTA but then they are not filling the role they are intended to fill in a fleet, so what is the point? They get skipped over for faster options.

What % of MC80s run ET compared to what % or Interdictors and Peltas run ET? surely you don't think those % are close.

Of course not but it is an option that you can pick though, the same as an MC80.

What percent of interdictors are you seeing on the competitive scene? If your pelta is rushing to the front to face an ISD instead of being the support ship in issuing fleet commands from the rear, then you might want to rethink tactics as well. @Englishpete has it right, the real threat is to ships that shoot straight on, most namely a VSD.

Idk what you guys are talking about. I'll joust BTA with my Vic any day and come out on top because my Vic list has the support it needs to bring it down. And I've brought down BTA multiple times with it.

#MyAnecdoteProvesYouWrong

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Idk what you guys are talking about. I'll joust BTA with my Vic any day and come out on top because my Vic list has the support it needs to bring it down. And I've brought down BTA multiple times with it.

#MyAnecdoteProvesYouWrong

This is the other thing being ignored in this thread as well, we are comparing one - one ship combat. If you look at it fleet to fleet, the picture changes greatly. I would sacrifice a VSD If it meant I would take out the ISD in return...

I'd sacrifice most other ships if I was trading for the ISD.

@ThatSlyBandit has faced BTA three times with his Vics now and all three times they've shrugged it off. Vics are no joke anymore.

5 minutes ago, Englishpete said:

This is the other thing being ignored in this thread as well, we are comparing one - one ship combat. If you look at it fleet to fleet, the picture changes greatly. I would sacrifice a VSD If it meant I would take out the ISD in return...

I'd sacrifice most other ships if I was trading for the ISD.

I still think BTA is ******* dumb and easily exploited. Either people don't know how to play it properly, or do and are respectful to other players and actively decide not to play it, but I'm happy it's not as dominating as my initial predictions were.

As for me, I play high activation fleets designed to play first and second player so BTA isn't an issue. And I no longer care if other people struggle against it. If you try to speak out against it, you'll get crushed by the hive-mind of the forums.

I think BTA will be on the downside for part of Wave 7 because people will play the other ISDs.

The highest-placing Avenger in Vancouver this weekend was 11th of 24.

The highest-placing BTVenger was 12th. The other two were at 21st and 23rd.

I don't know the guy who got 12th, but I know the other two are both very good players. I haven't talked to Cole since I saw the results, so I don't know what happened to him, but I do know he's consistently at the top of the Spokane meta and has done well at Worlds. Gus is a little on the newer side, but also nearly undefeated in the Around The Table group. To see both of those guys at the very bottom of the tournament is a very strong statement about the archetype's strength in a meta that's not dominated by Ackbar Super Pickles.

BTVenger is a specific hard counter to the camp-out-behind-my-pickle-and-farm-Strategic-points style. It does that very well. That doesn't mean it's some kind of meta-crushing doom machine.

Heck, just look at theoretical matchups against the top lists from Vancouver.

1) Rieekan aces is uniquely well-suited to handle it: the bombers will lie in wait on the approach turn and hit Avenger on approach (while shoving mines under it or farming FL points or whatever), flotillas will block Avenger 's approach, and even on the turn that it does get its one-shot, if it's a critical ship Rieekan will keep it alive and force the trade for Avenger . And none of those trades are worth it for Avenger .

2) Similar story against Dodonna Admo/Yavaris/HH/75/75 bombers . He's either going to trade flotillas to buy time to bomb Avenger to death, or he's going to make the (good) gamble that Landmonition can weather the front arc, then return the favor.

3) My MC30 swarm . Which of my four MC30s do you want to blow your shot on before the other three pummel you to death? Assuming I opt to give you the shot instead of just stuffing GR75s up your nose and flanking the ISD.

4) Relentless/Demo/Goz. Yeah, it would probably win this one, skill level notwithstanding.

It is crazy to me how easily people dismiss the threat and ease of use of a ship that can bank a nav and squadron token then put along at speed 1 until it sees an opening... then as the last activation of a turn, jump to speed 3 and depending on your admiral and your dial get as many as 5 clicks at speed 3, that by all rights should be really hard to avoid.

people produce statements saying that they can beat it, which is mostly a brag with no tactical insight, but player skill aside, the question before us is "is BTA OP,"

to my mind it is to easy and powerful of a combo when compared to the other things options in the game. I think many players using BTA get impatient and wade in to early, but in the right hands it is very difficult to counter an untouched ISD knifing in from outside of weapons range, ignoring most if not all the defensive mechanics in the game, usually killing, but if not killing certainly crippling a key enemy ship, and then magically (due to the logic defying absurdity that is First/Last) jetting away.

My assertion is not that it is the best thing around in all match ups, but that it is way to good for the amount of skill used to employ it. To be that good, it should be harder to use but the Avenger title and BT only requiring a token instead of and actual dial makes it pretty plug and play.

Que the tactically void counter examples that fail to address how overtly powerful and simplistic BTA is.

10 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

To see both of those guys at the very bottom of the tournament is a very strong statement about the archetype's strength in a meta that's not dominated by Ackbar Super Pickles.

It's not as strong a statement as you think. 2nd place at Fargo was BTA with 1st a 7 activation list. But you already know this.

15 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

The highest-placing BTVenger was 12th.

3 activations.

16 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

The other two were at 21st and 23rd.

4 and 4 activations.

And the top 8 is dominated by squadrons, except for you but Mothma negates bomber dice. So yea, I'm not surprised low activation fleets lost against higher activations with squads. If anything, it provides evidence squads are the correct counter to BTA, but running high activation also serves as a counter to squads. You understand this because you delay until the carriers have activated buying you an extra round to get in position and set up a trap. I do it as well with 6 ships.

I will admit I'm surprised the Relentless fleet did so well. Not sure what to make of that.

BTA will hit it's stride when people start running 6+ ships with BTA and Demo. We already saw this over the summer when someone won with BTA, Demo, 2 Raiders and 3 Gozantis.

This is just the start of the regionals cycle though. Lot more games to be played and data to be collected. I'm eager to see how it shakes out, but I'm worried the fewer regionals will skew the data by denying people from participating.

In a meta where no one takes proper bomber wings BTA is OP.

For the love of Vader people just need to start running proper bomber lists. Its getting ridiculous.

Now in other news, has anyone noticed that Sato never does badly at regionals?

24 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

It is crazy to me how easily people dismiss the threat and ease of use of a ship that can bank a nav and squadron token then put along at speed 1 until it sees an opening... then as the last activation of a turn, jump to speed 3 and depending on your admiral and your dial get as many as 5 clicks at speed 3, that by all rights should be really hard to avoid.

people produce statements saying that they can beat it, which is mostly a brag with no tactical insight, but player skill aside, the question before us is "is BTA OP,"

to my mind it is to easy and powerful of a combo when compared to the other things options in the game. I think many players using BTA get impatient and wade in to early, but in the right hands it is very difficult to counter an untouched ISD knifing in from outside of weapons range, ignoring most if not all the defensive mechanics in the game, usually killing, but if not killing certainly crippling a key enemy ship, and then magically (due to the logic defying absurdity that is First/Last) jetting away.

My assertion is not that it is the best thing around in all match ups, but that it is way to good for the amount of skill used to employ it. To be that good, it should be harder to use but the Avenger title and BT only requiring a token instead of and actual dial makes it pretty plug and play.

Que the tactically void counter examples that fail to address how overtly powerful and simplistic BTA is.

I think what you're describing is a problem with the first last mechanic more than a BTA problem. I'd personally rather see them do something about first last rather than nerfing BTA.

4 minutes ago, Megatronrex said:

I think what you're describing is a problem with the first last mechanic more than a BTA problem. I'd personally rather see them do something about first last rather than nerfing BTA.

Which we know is being adressed with two (unique?) Officers in the new wave, though the specifics are unclear. So no point duscussing till it is spoilt properly.

Here we go again



God forbid a ship that costs anywhere from 130-170 points to even properly function be scary at CLOSE RANGE.

Heaven forbid I have to take bombers or more than 3 activations... or dare I say... an Mc30... gross!

clearly, armada is dead.

I'm of the mind that Boarding Troopers in itself is an underpowered upgrade. It's just the Avenger title that makes it so effective, albeit a one trick pony. Seriously, how often do you see non-Avenger ships (even ISD's) take Boarding Troopers? You sacrifice two very useful upgrade slots, you can use it only once, you need to sacrifice a squadron command or token, it can be relatively easily evaded on the larger clumsy ships like VSD's, and even when you successfully use it and don't use Avenger, you only exhaust some defensive tokens. Exhausting defense tokens is pretty good of course, but means they can still be used that round if needed potentially robbing you of a kill.

If Boarding Troopers would exhaust instead of discard I'd consider using it on other ships, but then of course it would be ridiculously overpowered with Avenger.

9 hours ago, Church14 said:

On AvengerBT, it provides the only way to guarantee the death of any ship (except Mott ISD) in the game in a single activation.

Off the top of my head, ways you can weather a BTVenger opener:

Bad rolls . They can't take OE on there, so you have to have either LS, Vader, Screed, DTT, some other reroll tech, or general good luck. Each of those represents an opportunity cost in the slot (I wish FFG'd release something decent for my Luck slot...).

Avoid the double arc and block with a survivable ship . Not that hard, just takes some judgement. People have been avoiding ISD double arcs successfully for 2 years now, I think they can probably keep doing so.

Derlin . Invaluable in avoiding one-shots. Each single extra damage you can survive decreases the one-shot odds dramatically .

Lando . Remember that reroll tech you brought?

Targeting Scramblers . Especially in pairs.

Landmonition . Insurance for that one die that comes up lucky even after Lando. Which you need on that otherwise-flimsy platform.

Kill it first . Blocking makes this very practicable--that large base is a huge liability. Flotilla blocking + bombers can do it, swarming CR90As can do it.

Kill it back . Rieekan is the obvious choice, but bombers or follow-up shots positioned to intercept do well too. I think it was @Truthiness who mentioned how great Defiance is for this.

Decentralize . BTVenger 's value is predicated on the assumption that there's something worth one-shotting.

7 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

3 activations.

4 and 4 activations.

Higher activation count means lower squadron cover. It also maximizes your opportunity to get that sweet last/first, but the higher your opponent's activation count, the less value you get out of the BTVenger last/first anyway since it's not a really huge impact against many MSUs. It's a tradeoff, for sure, but ultimately a meta decision on how best to balance the need for last-first vs the increased susceptibility to bombers and the decreased need for last activation against common activation numbers. None of those BTVenger fleets that showed up to Vancouver are bad builds.

--

It's not that I don't think BTvenger is not a good ship. It's awesome. If you have an open title, weapons team, and off ret slot on an ISD, those 8 points are a shoo-in. But it's in exactly the same bucket as relaying flotillas, last-first Demolisher, whatever that Pelta build was that was terrorizing the bay area, Ackbar conga lines, Rieekan Aceholes, and all the other bugaboos from days of yore. Unstoppable until people start figuring out how to stop it; after that, it's just another good build that you have to account for the possibility of running into when you're fleetbuilding.

I don't think you guys are wrong that BTVenger has the potential to be super frustrating to run up against as a new player--but that's a useless standard to hold a fleet to, because pretty much every top-tier tournament fleet is going to be super frustrating to new players. Have you ever taken a ramming fleet, a Strategic shenanigans fleet, a Mothma MC30 fleet, or a Motti triple ISD against a new player? Comparing that to the guy with 2 of each Rebel squadron, an AF2, Redemption , and Dodonna's Pride on a CR90A is kind of meaningless, right?

In fact, I think it's very comparable to the Ackbar conga-lines at the beginning of Wave 2. Very low skill barrier to do pretty well with it, but not a terribly high skill cap either. Some metas adapted fast and drove it out of prominence and it didn't have a big impact on them; others took longer and had a harder time because they had different other pressures on them.

For example, I think the BTVenger build is absolutely amazing against Ackbar super pickles. By all accounts, those have been dominating on the East coast. I've never played out there, so I can't say I know this, but it stands to reason that BTVenger would do very well in a meta where its favored opponent is prevalent.

In Vancouver, we had lots of squadrons do well, and lots of MSUs do well. BTVenger doesn't do particularly well against either of those, so it didn't have a strong showing.

I guess my point is, I wouldn't call something broken if there exist environments in which it does poorly. I think anecdotal counter-examples are actually very useful in disproving the notion that something is absolutely too powerful, so long as they are repeatable, because those counter-examples can form the basis for ways that others can address the issue themselves. And there are multiple demonstrated scenarios in which it does not do well.